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madmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 06:24 PM
Original message
Dundee man found dead in prison cell

Published: August 5, 2006

By PAUL DAQUILANTE
Of the News-Register

A Dundee man sentenced to an eight-year prison term in late June, in a case arising from a sexual relationship with a woman of extremely diminished mental capacity, was found dead Thursday at the Snake River Correctional Institution in Ontario.

Michael A. Dove, 45, was found dead in his cell about 7:45 a.m., according to spokeswoman Amber Campbell. She said the cause had not been determined, but was being treated as other than natural.

http://www.newsregister.com/news/story.cfm?story_no=211143


Should a grown woman with an "extremely diminished mental capacity" have the right to have sex if she wants to?
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. How do we know she did want to? Can someone with
"extremely diminished mental capacity" make that decision?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. Depends on how diminished
When I was still in my teens, I worked at a state mental hospital in the south. One of the wards was for the profoundly retarded, people who had reached physical maturity with the mental capacity of infants.

One such case was brought in to us. She was 33 years old, permanently curled into the fetal position, and was so diminished in mental capacity she had never developed a social smile.

Her father had been pimping her out to the local men in the community for beer money for years. She had produced three children, all profoundly retarded.

Now try to tell me there was any voluntary aspect to those "sexual relationships," I dare you.

"Extremely diminished mental capacity" to me means diminished below the threshhold of consent, something that would seem to be borne out by Dove's conviction and prison sentence. I realize consent isn't important to a certain type of male, but I expected better on DU.
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Thank you.
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madmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. For what?
Not reading the OP?
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madmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. All you had to do was read the damn article.
And you would know. Doh.
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I find Warpy's post far more polite than yours.
If you're feeling attacked and reacting accordingly, perhaps it'd be good to step away from posting for awhile.
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madmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. How condescending.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thorny issue.
How diminished is she? What were the circumstances?

I had a fellow karateka, a woman that would qualify as the above, hit on me once. I did not take her up on the offer and she started crying. I felt like shit. On the other hand, I knew I had made the right decision, not because of her mental challenges but because I did not to muddy the waters in the dojo. I did not see it as a dating service and am dead set against it being used as such.

Still, I felt that when all was taken into account I had made the right decision. But I still felt terrible for making her cry. She really did just want to have a sexual experience with a "normie".

Who amongst us could tell her that she could not?

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Sinti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. "If she wants to" - I would think so...
Though, I must confess, I don't know anything about this particular case. If the parents and the girl stood by him, I would suppose it was consensual, but patriarchy happens all the time nowadays. An 18 year old boy with a 17 year old girlfriend could find himself in prison, with a record as a sexual predator for the rest of his life, because the state decides it's statutory rape. :shrug:
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. Someone of extremely diminished mental capacity is incapable of consent.
Does physical maturity matter, if the person in question has the mind of a three year-old child? Can you tell me how such a person can give any meaningful consent?
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guinivere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. The woman has the mental capacity of a 7 year old.
If she has no idea what sex is, or isn't able to make day to day decisions for herself, then the man took advantage of her mental capacity.

A 7 year old can decide what clothes to put on and such. I'm not sure that a person of this mental capacity should or could decide to have sex.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
7. We put to death people with diminished mental capacities, as a...
...country, frequently enough for everyone to generally be aware of it. I did some Googling to see if it really was illegal to have sex with a person who has diminished mental capacity and apparently it is.

  Which makes your question even more interesting. If a person with diminished mental capacity can be judged fit for execution for a crime they committed, why are they ineligible to consent to sexual relations? Conversely, if a person with diminished mental capacity can't consent to sexual behavior how could they ever be deemed fit enough to be tried and executed?

PB
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madmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Good point.
It's not as simple as black and white. A few months ago a google found a site by advocates dedicated to giving the mentally challenged the right to sex. They thought it was healthy and natural because though mentally young, their bodies and desires are mature. I'll try to find it.

As you mention, there is some hypocrisy in the law. Another example is a teen who cannot consent, male or female, but can still be tried as an adult.

Whatever is most punitive is best for everyone, it seems.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
12. Here's a REAL scenario- I'm interested in what you folks think:
  In my line of work I often get to mingle with some terribly intelligent and often equally-esoteric personalities. The nature of the work is always both technically challenging and requiring great cleverness, especially when interacting with customers. This preamble is important- the gentleman in question that I'm about to describe is both very intelligent (wide and deep) and very "street smart", which implies a savvyness not gleaned from book-learning alone.

  Though we worked in slightly-different areas of the company we were both cigarette smokers and would often meet each other outside by the ashcan when the work permitted us to speak. Because of our work, which is in enterprise-level electronic and computer security issues, it is often the case that we're so sick of "shop talk" that talk often turns to private matters. After several conversations it came out that about five years previous this man had been in rehab for some substance abuse problem. Many people in the industry suffer from some form of substance abuse in my experience, people who enjoy learning the intimate details of programming phone switches, firewalls, etc. often "suffer" from obsessive personalities.

  So it wasn't that great of a shock. But then he tells me that he'd met his wife in rehab a few conversations later, since we generally hit it off. No biggie. Then he mentions one day that his wife had overdosed and suffered quite a bit of brain damage and that's why she was in rehab. Ok, I raised both eyebrows. Then he mentioned that the level of brain damage that she received was so severe as to render her childlike, in a sense, incapable of telling a lie of any sort and that her intellectual capacity precluded anything but literal interpretations of things said to her. I raise another eyebrow.

  That's three eyebrows so far.

  For instance, a male friend of his was over and mentioned in some oblique and no-doubt polite way that his (the male friend's wife) was having some some grief with her period. The gentleman's wife (with the brain damage) had then proceeded to talk about her own problems with menstruation at a level of detail that goes far beyond the pale for "small talk" and had even begun to lift her skirt to point out some chafing or other irritation(not sure exactly what the reason for her physical illustration was, this happened quite a while ago and it has been years since I worked in the same organization as this man) on her vagina.

  At this point I realized that I had not been endowed with enough eyebrows.

  Anyway, this man, I perceived, was extremely loyal to his wife. He said her earnestness was something he had never experienced with another human being and openly doubted he ever would. His wife was not "dumb" in a conventional sense she, in fact, was able to drive a car, take care of their child (for he and she had had a child together), and do a great many things that "normal" people do except lie or have any sense of shame about her body, body functions, etc. or any inhibition, any inhibition about her sexuality.

  When recalling the conversations we had, I often vacillate back and forth between thinking that he was taking advantage of her because from our conversations he described essentially a childlike mind in a woman's body, and thinking that fate might have done them both a good turn, he fiercely loyal to her and she protected by him.

  Still, strange one. After the series of stories he told me I try to keep at least one extra eyebrow in a pocket.

  Any thoughts?

PB
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madmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Interesting story.
Looking at it from her point of view, what are her options? If she finds someone whose age is her mental age, she could get arrested. If someone finds her, like your friend did, he could get arrested. So is she supposed to remain alone all her life? Why can't she have any love and comfort? Why doesn't she have any rights? Is it tricky eugenics?

Here is one link like the one I ran across a couple of months ago, though this one focuses on youth:

Sex Education for Physically, Emotionally, and Mentally Challenged Youth
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. In this case the woman was not born with diminished mental...
...capacities but it was the result of a severe drug overdose. I did visit the page and some of the links on it.

Thank you,

PB
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