Is Mel Gibsons antisemitism prevalent among Republican Catholics?

[NNN0LHI]

The reason I ask is because I was raised Catholic by Republican Catholic parents and their opinion of Jews were to the best of my recollection generally pretty close to Gibsons. I remember their friends were also pretty anti-Jew.

I say generally because my fathers youngest sister married a Jewish man, his name was Elmer, who actually turned out to be my parents best friend as well as being related. My aunt, uncle, and my three cousins used to be over at our house more than anyone else I can remember. Or we were at theirs. Them and my parents loved to play double deck Pinochle to the wee hours of the morning. I used to make them coffee, empty the ashtrays and count the tricks for them just so I could hang around with them.

Elmer was my favorite uncle too. Great sense of humor, easy going, never raised his voice, and I just plain liked him a lot. I used to couldn't wait for them to come over except for one small thing. Uncle Elmer was a doctor. (He was an army physician during WW II also.) But whenever he came over if either my brother or I had the slightest sniffle, runny nose, or sneeze my mother would badger Uncle Elmer into giving us both shots in the ass of Penicillin "just to be on the safe side." Not fun.

But other than that I can remember my parents and their other friends blaming the Jews for everything. Of course that was when they were not blaming everything on blacks, or Mexicans. Or worse yet, them dirty hippies.

Don

[mr_hat]

1. His would only be prevalent among him, I'm thinking.

Could be wrong.

[jeff30997]

2. Mel Gibsons is a nut. Period.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

3. I don't know (not Catholic), but my RC best friend 5 yrs. ago said

that the media was owned by Jews (and it was not in a nice tone of voice). I don't talk to her anymore cause I came to discover that she is fundamental in her beliefs, so, I would suggest that the fundie Catholics are still not accepting of the Jews, even after JPII's apology.

Isn't Gibson a Septugantist (sp?), I believe that they are not mainstream RC.

[bloom]

4. I was thinking the Gibson was part of some pre-Vatican II group

esp. conservative - not your run-of-the-mill Catholics.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

5. Yep, that's my understanding also! n/t

[bloom]

8. I looked it up - there's a "sedevacantist" group

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism

I found this on a Catholic forum:

"CBS News reported "Actor Mel Gibson is the person behind a 9,300-square-foot, Mission-style Catholic church complex in Malibu, Calif., that is not affiliated with any diocese." ("Mel Gibson gets religion", CBS News.org, 10 Mar 2003).

Cardinal Roger Mahony from the Diocese of Los Angeles stated regarding Gibson's Church: "I know nothing about the Church in Malibu. It is certainly not in communion with the Universal Catholic Church nor the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. I have never met Mr. Gibson, and he does not participate in any parish of this Archdiocese. He, apparently, has chosen to live apart from the communion of the Catholic Church. I pray for him." (Cited by National Federation of Catholic Youth Ministry, February 20, 2004, URL: http://www.nfcym.org/v3/resources/passion_mahony.html , accessed on Mar 4, 2005).

The 70-member church is sedevacantist. Gibson funded the chapel and obtained the services of an "independent" priest (eg. non-incardinated). Any way you slice it, this is a schismatic chapel."

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=125429

[I_Make_Mistakes]

23. Thanks bloom. I had heard this before they are not in communion

with Rome. I just didn't memorize the spelling.

[ShortnFiery]

6. I beg to differ ...

IMO most Republican Catholics are far too "wrapped around the axle" about preventing abortion and gay marriage. Little time is left for concern with Jewish People. In fact, most think the vast majority of Jews live in Hollywood or New York City. :shrug:

[Karenca]

18. They're not so far off

Jews make up 2.2 percent of the populationof the U.S.
Six and a half million jews in the US...that's all.

Most in N.Y.----1,675,000 in New York.
Most other states have very few jews at all.
Here's the breakdown:

Estimated Total Jewish Percent
Jewish Population Population* of Total
Alabama 9,000 4,451,000 0.2
Alaska 3,400 628,000 0.5
Arizona 81,500 5,165,000 1.6
Arkansas 1,700 2,678,000 0.1
California 999,000 34,000,000 2.9
Colorado 73,000 4,323,000 1.7
Connecticut 111,000 3,410,000 3.2
Delaware 13,500 786,000 1.7
District of Columbia 25,500 571,000 4.5
Florida 620,000 16,054,000 3.9
Georgia 93,500 8,230,000 1.1
Hawaii 7,000 1,212,000 0.6
Idaho 1,100 1,299,000 0.1
Illinois 270,000 12,436,000 2.2
Indiana 17,500 6,090,000 0.3
Iowa 6,100 2,928,000 0.2
Kansas 14,000 2,692,000 0.5
Kentucky 11,500 4,047,000 0.3
Louisiana 16,000 4,470,000 0.4
Maine 9,300 1,277,000 0.7
Maryland 213,000 5,311,000 4.0
Massachusetts 275,000 6,357,000 4.3
Michigan 110,000 9,952,000 1.1
Minnesota 42,000 4,931,000 0.9
Mississippi 1,500 2,849,000 0.1
Missouri 62,500 5,603,000 1.1
Montana 800 903,000 0.1
Nebraska 7,000 1,713,000 0.4
Nevada 77,000 2,019,000 3.8
New Hampshire 10,000 1,240,000 0.8
New Jersey 485,000 8,429,000 5.7
New Mexico 11,500 1,821,000 0.6
New York 1,657,000 18,990,000 8.7
North Carolina 26,500 8,077,000 0.3
North Dakota 450 641,000 0.1
Ohio 149,000 11,360,000 1.3
Oklahoma 5,000 3,453,000 0.1
Oregon 32,000 3,429,000 0.9
Pennsylvania 282,000 12,283,000 2.3
Rhode Island 16,000 1,050,000 1.5
South Carolina 11,500 4,023,000 0.3
South Dakota 300 756,000 (z)
Tennessee 18,000 5,702,000 0.3
Texas 131,000 20,947,000 0.6
Utah 4,500 2,242,000 0.2
Vermont 5,500 610,000 0.9
Virginia 66,000 7,104,000 0.9
Washington 43,000 5,908,000 0.7
West Virginia 2,300 1,808,000 0.1
Wisconsin 28,000 5,372,000 0.5
Wyoming 400 494,000 0.1
Total **6,155,000 282,125,000 2.2

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:BPW1NEgHpA0J:www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/usjewpop.html+jewish+population+by+state&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

[ShortnFiery]

25. Wow, guess I don't keep up - let's not tell them ... :-)

The Right Wing Fundy (Catholic or Protestant) arrogance knows no bounds.

Although I am Christian, I FULLY support the separation of church and state. :-)

[Lerkfish]

7. broad brush stereotypes are usually inherently wrong.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bloom]

13. Gibson is NOT representative of Christians in general.

He has his own church and doesn't go along with very much that most Christians believe and vice-versa.

[Karenca]

20. Hey

Welcome to DU :hi: :hi: :hi:

[Lerkfish]

31. actually, you've just presented exhibit A

broad brush stereotypes are inherently wrong.

[Cleita]

9. My parents were Republican and my mother was

Catholic. I was raised Catholic but one of my best friends in grade school was our Jewish neighbor's daughter. I never felt that my parents thought of them any differently than any other of my friends' parents. I played at their house a lot and my friend would come over to our house to decorate easter eggs and help trim our Christmas tree.

Although I didn't meet any Jews in parochial school, when I went to college and then to work, I met and befriended many Jews, that I brought home to meet the folks and I never got an anti-semitic vibe from them. So I don't know if it's because we lived in So. California that made it different than elsewhere. Mel remember grew up in Australia so I don't know if he picked up those attitudes there.

[etherealtruth]

10. I come from a long line of Roman Catholics ...

Most, if not all, Democrats.

In my Catholic education we spent time at synagogues and Jewish community centers (as well as other religions and Christian denominations)to foster a sense of sister/brotherhood.

Mel Gibson is a jack-ass; they come in all religions.

[patdem]

12. I went to Catholic school and came away thinking the Romans more than

the Jews killed Christ. Maybe because I had a VERY liberal dad who said the bible was written by someone who had a VERY GOOD PR person.

[Cleita]

17. Strange me too.

I always blamed the Romans as well. Although there was some blame put on the pharisees, which I got the impression were a corrupt group of Jewish priesthood, not all the Jews in Palestine. I got the impression that the pharisees were regarded like we think of the Christian fundies, money grabbing and corrupt.

I think the notion of the Jews being responsible for the death of Jesus rose up in the Middle Ages when there was much anti-semitism going around. How convenient to fan the hatred with making them into Jesus killers.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

28. my bible studies say the same. The Pharisees were aiding

Rome in keeping the Jews in line. That's the Jesus in the temple with the money changers passage. In my Bible studies, the Jews of the Old Testament thought the Messiah would come in the form of an avenger (same with the fundies), and that is why Judas turned Jesus over to the Romans to force Jesus into becoming the avenger.

Jesus was a threat to the political establishment (both Romans and Pharisees prospered from the Quid Pro Ante (is that the term Condi keeps using?), so he had to be dealt with). My teaching was that both were protecting their respective behinds, which is why Jesus was crucified not Barabbas (a murderer (of Roman soldiers and terrorist by Biblical definition, because he led a movement to fight for the Jews freedom from the Romans).

[patdem]

30. Ya know.they talked about the pharisees..but never said JEWISH

pharisees..so there was NEVER the connection between Jew and the death of Christ for me when I was in Catholic school....maybe the Sisters of Notre Dame are liberals? I befriended a kid when I was about 8..Jewish...and he and I would talk about religion and I thought I could convert him...cause you know..the Catholic church IS the ONE TRUE church...but...never happend..I ran across his parents about 30 years later..they were closing a shop they owned in Ghent..and I sumbled in there..for a sale and discovered it was his mom...we talked for awhile and then I bought some trinket..and left...

My BEST friend in Rhode Island was Jewish....her grand folks were driven out of Minsk Russia and she (my friend..not her grand folks) married a Catholic..she had a Star of David with a Cross in the middle..they divorced, but she and I were GREAT friends..and I don't think her parents minded that I was Catholic??? If they did they were VERY gracious!

[Cleita]

42. Back then if you lived in Palestine, you either

worshipped the God of Abraham or you were a pagan and worshipped the many gods of the Mediterranean cultures then. The pharisees were part of the priesthood that worshipped the God of Abraham and most likely they were ethnic, circumcised Jews. That was it, there were no Christians or Muslims.

Crucifixion in those days was a Roman form of execution. The Jews preferred stoning. So it seems rather obvious that the Romans executed Jesus. The Jews would have stoned him or beheaded him like Herod did John the Baptist.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

48. Thank you so much! I am still not solid on my entire understanding

of the Bible, never expect to be! You just sent me to my study Bible and low and behold, in the appendix it listed Herod as "name of a line of rulers of Palestine". NRSV pg. 1369.

I have long heard the argument about there being no such thing as Palestine (and REAL Palestinians) and never really looked into it! You just gave me another weapon for the Palestinian haters around me.

I truly mean that, you pushed me to go further into my understanding and it really was an eye opener! It was not in my Bible text, but in the reference area.

[Cleita]

50. My little bit of knowledge notes that Palestine was

named for the Philistines, who were Greek in origin and one of the enigmatic Sea Peoples. Of course I'm talking about a period of time in the late Bronze Age that was called a dark age. We learn of the Philistines from the tale of Samson and Delilah in the Bible and King David had dealings with them as well.

In the course of history, the Holy Land fell to many conquerors, the Babylonians, the Assyrians and the Persians. Then they fell to the Macedonians under Alexander the Great. The name of Palestine was a broad term used by the conquerors. My history is sketchy here but I'm sure other DUers can fill in better than me. When the Romans became Empire they kept the name of Palestine, which is what it was called at the time of Jesus.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

54. So how do the RWingbats get away with saying there is no

Palestine and Palestinians? I know, you can't speak for them, but I am sure glad you gave me the impetus to look the whole thing up, so I can challenge their BS! Thanks again!

[Cleita]

55. I get what you are up against right now.

You are talking about today. Okay in the last century before the creation of Israel the area known as the Holy Land was known as Palestine. The Ottoman turks owned most of it and the British a part. Again I am not that sure about my history, but I'm sure some DUer will correct me on it. Although I think I'm basically right. Something that a lot of people don't know is that Jews, Christians and Moslems fairly co-existed there until WWI.

The so-called Palestinians were Arabs, both Christian and Muslim, who lived there for generations, maybe even since biblical times, before the British, Americans and others carved it up into various nations after WWI. And so it remained Palestine until 1948 when the state of Israel was created.

When Israel was created, to be called a Palestinian was to differentiate between Jewish and Arab who lived on the same land and in the new country. Now I'm sure someone will come in and correct me, but I still think I have it fairly right.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

56. I love you for caring enough to impart your wisdom. I understand

and the one looming question asked esp. on C-Spam "Was it a mistake to create Israel where it is today?", gets a descent nod by all asked. I guess what is done is done, but damn what a mess.

I see both sides of the situation that is how I came to this earth and will leave it. Here is part of my personal dilemma, supposedly there were 600,000 Jews, + Christians/Muslims (Arab and non) living in the Palestine area in peace. The UN decides that the European Jews needed a homeland (I get and understand that), but God, they choose to dislocate a relatively peaceful bunch of people in the process and it has been downhill since.

The whole Colonial period (including that in the US) went against God, in the sense that HE gave the land to the people who occupied it. I love Jesus (with every ounce of my being) and his teaching, but God the Father is not on my good guys list (I keep telling Him YOU reap what YOU sow!).

Thanks again for your willingness to spread your understanding and wisdom.

[Sgent]

14. The apple didn't fall far from the tree

Mel's dad is an outspoken holocaust denier and outright anti-semite. Many of Mel's films were thought to have anti-semetic overtones, but everyone was willing to give Mel a pass on much of it due to the fact he had never expressed those feelings outright.

That's why many are much more hesitant to give him a pass than they would be of another actor.

[question everything]

15. A catholic co-workers once said that Catholics feel close to Jews

since Catholics were minority in this country and often suffered from bigoted Protestants - just like Jews.

But perhaps hers was a minority opinion...

[lolly]

37. One thing in common

Both Jews and Catholics are on the KKK list of enemies of True White Christians (or whatever they call themselves).

I remember a scene from "Secret Life of Bees" (set in South Caroline in the early 60s) where the narrator talked about hearing a sermon about how horrible Catholics were, and how good "Christian" women were supposed to carry a glove with them everywhere to help them remember the 5 True Points of Christianity to show to any Catholics they met.

[Breeze54]

40. I don't think it was a minority opinion at all!

;)

[union_maid]

16. I think it's wholly individual

Old school Republicans were anti-semitic, along with anti pretty much everyone, including Catholic, depending on where they lived. I don't think that pertains anymore, though.

[Dr Fate]

19. Not that I know of at least. Just Mad Max. n/t

n/t

[Cooley Hurd]

21. I grew up in a Democratic Catholic family, and I NEVER heard...

...anything even close to an anti-semitic remark. I never even ran into anti-semitism until I was an adult and living in Greenville, SC. There, everything negative in the world was attributed to the African-Americans or the Jews.:crazy:

[leftofthedial]

22. I wouldn't focus on antisemitism

repuke catholics seem to hate damned near everything

[NNN0LHI]

26. I tried to focus more on that in the last paragraph of the OP

I tend to agree. And it might just be more Republicans in general regardless of their faith?

Don

[leftofthedial]

34. that would be my opinion

repukes seem to love money

and hate everything else, often as not

[SPKrazy]

24. I Think Anti Semitism Is On The Rise In A Lot Of Places

some of them quite unlikely

:shrug:

[ShortnFiery]

27. Hatred, in general, is on the rise - Hatred of "The Other" eom

[Lerkfish]

32. I think disagreeing with Israel's current policy is on the rise

some may confuse that with antisemitism, if they choose to.
They'd be intentionally wrong, though.

[SammyWinstonJack]

29. Why not just leave the drunken moron alone? He was drunk and

said stupid stuff. Who hasn't done that? I am not a fan of him, but this is way over the top! Good grief! Give it a rest!

[NNN0LHI]

33. Any other subjects you don't want any more posts on?

I have started to keep a list of subjects people don't want posted about any more for future reference.

Hope I can help you out and not post anything else that offends you.

Take care.

Don

[SammyWinstonJack]

45. How did this offend me? Clue me in? I am all ears?

:shrug:

[SammyWinstonJack]

46. You seriously need a break! You are way too serious! And feel free to

put me on ignore! Please! Take care! :-)

[bloom]

35. I think most people would not become antisemitic just because

they were drunk.

You either think that sort of stuff or you don't.

[ruggerson]

52. Just last night

I got drunk and went running into the street screaming about how the damn Chinese have bought ALL the dry cleaners where I live and they've raised their rates like they're in a cartel. The Chinese are responsible for ALL the dry cleaning woes in the world. Are you Chinese, btw?

[Karenca]

36. All this talk about "are Republican Catholics anti-semites

because they "blame the jews for killing Christ."

Well, I don't even know if Jesus existed, and I'm doubtful of a book
that was written hundreds of years after Jesus' "death", with no living witnesses.

but if he did exist:

he was an orthodox jewish rabbi...makes it all the more ironic.

This, and for so many more reasons is why I
am against all religions.

[Breeze54]

38. American anti-Jewish attitudes have been declining steadily for fifty year

Black Anti-Semitism in Contemporary America

An American Jewish Committee study of all survey data on prejudice against Jews in America
concluded that American anti-Jewish attitudes have been declining steadily for fifty years
and that Jewish integration in America has accelerated as discrimination has declined.

Paralleling this integration has been a steady increase in intermarriages.

In 1995 anti-Jewish hostility is not among the top inter-group hostilities in America.
More prevalent and more serious hostility is to be found between blacks and whites,
whites and blacks, blacks and Hispanics, and Hispanics and whites.

Snip-->

"American prejudices about Jews have indeed changed since the first fully reliable survey
was conducted in 1964 and these changes are significant and positive.

From 1964, an era that was still largely 1950's Elvis and Eisenhower, when Jews were just
joining exclusive clubs for the first time and Communism had Jewish/liberal overtones,
about 30% of adult Americans had clearly anti-Jewish prejudices. By 1992 that figure was
under 20%, a drop of one third. This ten point drop means that we now have a population
of 25 million Americans who hold much more positive opinions about Jews than their
predecessors a generation earlier.

WHAT HAPPENED? THREE CHANGES

1). Older prejudiced Americans died off, and the younger ones who replaced them
are less rural, less southern and better educated.
These trends are continuing to improve the situation.

2) The Catholic church changed its position on Jews killing Christ
(partly influenced by the 1964 ADL-Glock survey data which the American bishops carried to Rome)
and young Catholics are now no more anti-Jewish than other Americans.
They were formerly the most anti-Jewish of any religious group.

3) Southern Baptists, who were almost as anti-Jewish as Catholics in 1964 have also had a change in theology.
Television evangelists emerged in the late 1960's in this denomination and they preach a theology that favors Israel and Jews. <--Snip

More at Link... http://www.well.com/~mp/a3.html

(The above is the first study I could find pertaing to the 1960's.)

I remember going to a Temple, for the first time, for a funeral.
There was a huge discussion about whether us Parochial School kids
should go or not. We went, out of respect, for Goodwin Myers.
He had donated bus service to the Catholic school for years.
I also remember not being allowed to attend services at the local
Protestant church, with my friend's family. That was frowned upon!
I don't remember any talk against Jewish people, at home.
Only sympathy towards them due to the holocaust.
But that isn't to say I didn't hear anti-jewish comments growing up
or anti-jewish jokes either. I also heard such things about Polish,
Puerto Ricans, Italians, African Americans, women, and the list goes
on and on. I heard these types of comments everywhere!

[Botany]

39. Who cares about dumb asses who hate? Tell me more about Uncle Elmer.

I am a Landscaper and one Jewish customer of mine named Burton
knew that I was going to be a daddy .... so he went across the street to
Hal to "bargain with him" on a used crib that was his granddaughter's
and he was going to sell @ a garage sale ..... they were moving to Florida
....

Burton came back across the street after 1 hour of talks and told me that
Hal had agreed on a price of $30.00. When I went to see Hal he said, "$30.00
and that is my last price." I would have paid $50.00 to watch them haggle.

Thanx for the Uncle Elmer story.

[NNN0LHI]

43. I was at Uncle Elmer's gravesite just last week

Beautiful monument with the Star Of David on one side and the Army Insignia on the other side. The headstone is black marble. Its very tasteful.

He was the kind of guy who wouldn't say shit if he had a mouthful. A very kind and quiet man. I only heard good things from him. Stuff that would make you smile. I don't think he was all that big on kids. I mean I can't remember him going out of his way to play with us or anything. Him and my aunt had three beautiful and intelligent daughters. All good kids who did well. College educated and all have jobs as professionals. Doctors and dentists.

My uncle was not on the fundy end of the spectrum either. My aunt who converted to Judaism when they married was much more strict as far as the religion stuff went.

I have good memories growing up around all of them and I do miss my uncle Elmer.

And thank you for asking.

Don

[Botany]

44. Uncle Elmer lives on with you.

You should be so lucky.

I love the story of the card games.

[ThomWV]

41. It Was Your Parents Fault

I was raised a Catholic too, the whole nine yards. I never saw or heard anything against the jewish faith. Back in the days when I was still too young to feel confident enough to say no to my parents concerning religion there was still desecration of synagogues around the country and specifically in the area where I was - Wheaton, Maryland. The Catholic Church I had to attend (St. Jude) was located closer to Rockville. The Church went batshit demanding that the people who had desecrated the Temple be found and punished. It was a message that rang true to a parish made up mostly of families headed by WW-II vets who knew with precision what the jewish people had endured (and so many millions who did not endure) in Europe. That sort of shit did not fly and Catholics were leading the charge to make it stop. So I don't know how you were raised, but what you were hearing was not church doctrine by any stretch of the imagination.

[JerseygirlCT]

47. Not my experience at all nt

[EFerrari]

49. No, I've Republican Catholics in my family.

He's a bigot and gets all the credit.

[mmonk]

51. Not that I recall.

I grew up Catholic and don't remember discussions about Jews in particular from my parents or from fellow church goers though in the general population in the south where I lived, it would pop up.

[Mr_Spock]

53. Don't get me started.

I don't think this is a topic you really want a straight answer on. What I can tell you is that it isn't limited to Republican catholics. I see both sides in my family as we are mixed faith - it's fascinating. My experience growing up in a heavily Catholic inner city neighborhood was also eye opening to say the least.

[rockymountaindem]

57. I doubt it

Speaking as a Jew, I can say that in my days I have been friends with many Catholics who have never shown anything but respect for my beliefs. Of course, when we're talking about religion, they tell me how it's important to believe in Jesus, have communion, etc. but I don't consider that anti-Semitism. I have only ever been the target of one overtly anti-Semitic remark "if you're Jewish, you should just die", but I don't know the person who said that and I never saw him again. Still, of all the people I know, I guess he represents the .001% who are anti-Semitic. OTOH, I have heard my shares of stinging rebukes of Protestantism from Catholics, and vice versa. I guess with the big numbers of both those groups, Judaism kind of flies below their radars.

[eridani]

58. Odd. Most of the Catholics I grew up around were ethnic Dems

--of various sorts. Jewish was just another colorful demographic. This was in the Midwest in the 50s. There was interethnic rivalry, of course. Irish priests held all the higher positions in the diocese, which was resented by Poles, Germans and Italians. But one very popular Father O'Hara elicited the comment from an Italian "You know, for a guy with the "O" at the wrong end of his name, he's pretty good!"