The Jews are split; don't be misled into thinking they support Israel

[Celica Toyota]

Do all Americans support George Bush? Even thousands of Israelis (people who live there) are in the streets protesting the actions of their government. Even more Jews are in the streets of America protesting Israel's continued bombing of Lebanon. So opposing the bombing is supporting the Jews who oppose the bombing. Supporting the current actions of Israel is opposing the thousands and thousands of Jews who are taking to the streets in protest.

We want other nations to support those of us who oppose Bush. Let's stand in support of the thousands of Jews who are protesting Olmert.

[Bretttido]

1. I can't believe that many jews are anti-semites

:sarcasm:

[ComerPerro]

14. but they are, apparently

:eyes:

Rush Limbaugh last week was wondering why liberal Jews in Hollywood aren't coming out and speaking out for Israel.

Then, of course, in his standard fasion, he tore down his strawman by explaining that their religion comes second, their liberalism comes first.


And all this time, I was thinking that it might be because they are not Israeli.

[malaise]

2. Link please n/t

[Ian David]

3. Here's a pretty good summary of my personal stand on the issue...

Reply #30: Israel is not making their people safer. They're falling into the trap...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2431117&mesg_id=2431295

[oberliner]

4. There are new posting rules

1. ORIGINAL POSTS MUST BE ABOUT A CURRENT EVENT, AND CONTAIN NON-INFLAMMATORY, SUBSTANTIAL CONTENT

Is this in violation?

[JackNewtown]

9. No, this is a current event

It also counters malicious propaganda that conflates all Jews with the Israeli government. That only increases anti-Semitism.

However, I applaud your continued effort to point out thoughtcrimes.

[jonnyblitz]

10. still trying to stifle debate I see. nt

[oberliner]

12. Just asking if this post violates the new rules.

It seems borderline to me since it is so general.

Getting an answer would help clarify exactly what sorts of posts those new rules were addressing.

[breakaleg]

5. This is good to hear. I would like to hear more about that in the news.

[Ignoramus]

6. Not all jews have the same opinion

That seems extremely likely.

If you are saying a significant or increasing number are opposing the aggression against Lebanese people, a link would be interesting.

[kurth]

7. FYI:

Innocents pay dearly for the 'new' Middle East
Marc H. Ellis, BAYLOR UNIVERSITY
Thursday, August 03, 2006

No, not all Jews support Israeli policies in Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank. Not all Arabs and Muslims support Hezbollah in their policies of provocation and destabilization. And not all Americans support American policy in the region. Which doesn't mean the nay-sayers are self-hating Jews, anti-Semites or American bashers. Those who say "no" see the world in a different way. A way where burning children are past tense rather than present, where the Jewish ethical tradition is reclaimed and wrestled away from empire, and where America's voice is not the voice of green-lighting war, arming the various participants for renewed battles and pretending to be even-handed. The nay-sayers say no to Condoleezza Rice; her anguish in recent days is the anguish of American policies coming home to roost. Too much civilian casualty in Qana? Simply a larger number in one place and time. Did the reports of the innocent killed day after day go unread, death as a clearance project, paving the way for the "new" Middle East?

"Birth pangs," the language she uses; rather death dirges, the innocent dying without her comment or commitment. Our policy in Lebanon is not so different than our policy in Iraq. At least for Americans, Iraqi deaths are blips on our television screens. The Iraqi dead are never named. Rarely are the Lebanese or the Palestinian dead. Their names are difficult for us to pronounce, we, the liberators of nations whose very culture is so unimportant to us that we don't feel the need to know their language. Our own soldiers die daily, too, their opinions about the war rarely solicited. Are they, too, unimportant? Some Americans believe that Israel is the front line of defense for the West — against the marauding Muslims who threaten us with MullahDarkness. Some Israelis believe this. Others don't. Thus the demonstrations against Israeli policies by Israelis in Tel Aviv. A minority, yet important nonetheless and growing daily. After all, Israelis and Arabs live in the Middle East and will live there after the carnage, the cease-fires, real and imagined, and after this war, and the wars to come.

American Jews don't speak for all of Israel. And they don't live there. It's an illusion to think that Israeli Jews who die in Lebanon die for Jews in America. Surrogate death is cheap; the fallen are forgotten even as we trumpet our lofty ethical "standards." We Americans also have to live in the world after. In recent days, Rice has received an earful of world opinion almost unanimous against the war. The numbers of dead climb daily — without factoring in the Something Bigger devastation that might be around the corner. Iran and Syria cowardly remain on the sidelines. Why not pay up with their treasures and infrastructure if the cause is so noble?

Israel signals them that the war is limited to Lebanon if they stay out. Israel, too, is afraid of an all-out war. In the fog of war, chips can fall in different ways. Why not have surrogates do the fighting and dying? The message at Qana is obvious. Flee or be killed. If you flee, you might be killed anyway. No exit for the surrogates. As the "civilized" world stands by. Shall we protect the innocent? Yes, unless they are defined as not being innocent by virtue of their being in the way of Something Bigger.

----------------
Ellis, a Baylor University professor and director of the Center for Jewish Studies, is author of "Toward a Jewish Theology of Liberation."

http://www.statesman.com/opinion/content/editorial/stories/08/3ellis_edit.html

[Mandate My Ass]

8. And IDF refuseniks

Here is part of their statement. They get it, it's not about defense. :applause:

We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.

We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.

We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.

We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.

We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.

We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.

The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose-- and we shall take no part in them.

http://www.spectacle.org/0302/refuse.html

[Scurrilous]

11. Degel Hatorah leader: Israel must heed world's peace proposals

<snip>

"The leader of the Degel Hatorah political party as well as the ultra-Orthodox Lithuanian community in Israel, Rabbi Yosef Shalom Eliashiv, went against the official position of the government in recent days, and expressed his support of a cease fire between Israel and Lebanon.

Eliashiv said recently "the decision makers must take into account the position of the world nations. They shouldn't ignore or take lightly the ideas raised by other nations. If the United States raises solutions that could bring about the end of the war and save Jewish lives, they should be heeded. No offer or idea should be dismissed offhand. We mustn't anger the nations of the world."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746186.html

[Double T]

13. I support the 'opposition' to neocon regimes.........

throughout the world, regardless of their race, religion, politics, skin color or the way they part their hair. The greatest threat to world peace are neocon governments and the neocon military industrial complex corporations; they are equal to and as evil as the terrorists they condemn. 'We All' need to work together to rid the world of their neocon scourge so that peace will someday have a chance.

[maddezmom]

15. locking

please see new posting guidelines here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1809690&mesg_id=1809690