So you want me to support Israel...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

Can do. Frankly, I'd love to visit the Holy Land some day while I still have time. Sounds like a great place, filled with wonderful people.

Now wait a minute... you want me to support Israel's side in this latest war? If I'm going to support Israel, why would I support a war which can only mean more death and suffering for the Israeli people, a war that only isolates Israel from the world community, a war that only legitimizes Hezbollah as defenders of their homeland in the eyes of the Lebanese people, a war that only destabilizes an already unstabile region potentially putting hundreds of thousands of Israeli lives in jeopardy, a war that George Bush and Condoleeza Rice are bending over backwards to support, a war that Israelis don't want and even the right wing nutters like Benjamin fucking Netanyahu thinks is a bad idea, a war that makes war criminals of people who only wanted to defend their people...

Why on earth would I want to support this nonsense if I supported Israel?

In fact, I don't see how I could honestly support Israel without being for an immediate cease fire.

Frankly, that sounds like asking me to support the troops and at the same time asking me to support the war they're dying senselessly in.

And I think that's about all I ever wanted to say on the subject.

[aquart]

1. Great. Let's get your peace plan out there.

I KNOW you can get Hezbollah to stop shelling Israeli cities.

[newyorican]

4. The war plan...

...has been so sucessful. :sarcasm:

[Common Sense Party]

8. Oh, come on. You know those pesky rockets are mere

nuisances.

Israel should just forgive and forget, and ignore the shelling.









:sarcasm:

[ThomCat]

17. Never mind that Israel instigated this conflict.

You can believe that Hezbollah kidnapped those soldiers for no reason at all, but that doesn't change the fact that Isreal has been running operations over the border in Lebanon continually for years.

Lebanon should just forgive nad forget, and ignore all of the destruction Israel is causing.
:sarcasm:

[Scriptor Ignotus]

39. I love talking about the middle east

because counter-points are so easy to write.

I'll take your sarcastic end point:"Lebanon should just forgive and forget, and ignore all of the destruction Israel is causing."

Then switch around Lebanon with Israel...

And whammy - I've got a counter to your argument.

Israel should just forgive and forget, and ignore all of the destruction Lebanon is causing. :sarcasm:


Now we just keep doing this for the next 50 years. OK, your turn.

-note - another tactic would be to address who "instigated" what. For this I would just find an incident of Hezbollah attacking Israel even before the kidnapping, and then you find one of Israel attacking Hezbollah before that, and then I find one before that...Good times, good times...

[Virginia Dare]

43. We all need to be honest with ourselves...

there is no black and white here. Everybody is right and everybody is wrong. Each group has their own agenda and they are trying to use it to their own advantage. The end result is that innocent people, CHILDREN, BABIES, the ELDERLY are being killed. That can't be acceptable to anyone. It's not acceptable in the U.S., Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Afghanistan Iraq, or anywhere else in the world. Let's stop defending the indefensable.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

49. here, here

although I personally just think everybody is wrong. The Palestinians are wrong, the Israelis are wrong, the Syrians are wrong, the Lebannese are wrong... the sad thing about it is that there are only a few hundred people in the middle east, making all the wrong decisions, and millions of innocents end up paying for it. I only partly blame the leaders though.

The lion's share of the blame belongs to religion - Judaism, Christianity and Islam have made life very cheap in that region.

[Breeze54]

66. Thank You for both of your replies above!

;)

[mom cat]

45. Furthermore, the IDF soldiers were capturd in Lebanon after an incursion

into Lebanese territory.

[The Stranger]

47. . . . or at least they can get out of those people's fucking country.

No sarcasm here, just calling you on your bluff.

[catbert836]

10. Israel was wrong to start the war in the first place.

Invading a neighboring country on account of two kidnapped soldiers doesn't make much sense, and it has pushed chances for peace back 30 years.

[in_cog_ni_to]

12. It wasn't over ONLY two soldiers. How 'bout THOUSANDS of rockets,

8 DEAD soldiers and 2 kidnapped soldiers? ThHOUSANDS of rockets have been fired into Israel by Hezbollah since 2000. What would YOU do if you had rockets firing at YOUR house everyday? Accept it? Live in your safe room/bomb shelter forever? This isn't about JUST the 2 soldiers.

[catbert836]

19. The two soldiers

were the premise the war was declared on, if I recall correctly. And it was Israel's refusal to have Syrian soldiers in southern Lebanon that got Hezbollah started in the first place.

[in_cog_ni_to]

27. We know why Hezbollah exists and Hezbollah was firing rockets into Israel

every freakin' day for 6 freakin' YEARS.

[catbert836]

28. As I said,

Israel's government allowed them to get their start in southern Lebanon when it made clear in the eighties that Syrian soldiers entering the area would be considered an act of war. This allowed Hezbollah to get its start, as there was no one there to provide social services.

Israel's government has made so many errors in the name of defending their country that I'm just not inclined to trust them anymore. Besides, you've got to question whether defending themselves in this way will really make things any better.

[in_cog_ni_to]

35. We shall see if it makes things any better.

It can't be any worse.

[catbert836]

40. On the contrary.

Things could turn out to be much worse. Israel's attack has roused Arab support for Hezbollah, and this could lead to another Yom Kippur War. It certainly will not help Israel's cause with its immediate neighbors. This will merely lead to increased violence against Israel.

[leveymg]

41. There wasn't a single Israeli civilian casualty from Hezbollah rockets

from 01/01 until 7/06.

After all the back and forth on the subject since last Friday, you know that.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leveymg]

79. Return to reality, please. That's NOT a lie.

How many times do I have to point out that the ADL accounting of Israeli civilian terrorist victims didn't include Mr. Dadon because it isn't clear that he was targeted.

People on the ground do get hit inadvertantly by shrapnel from AA guns being fired at military aircraft.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[U4ikLefty]

86. Every day for the LAST six years? n/t

[MrPrax]

58. You mean these rockets?

Pre-spin when Israeli commanders didn't seem at all concerned about the rockets at all...


12 Qassams fired from Gaza

03.15.06

Some rockets land in Israeli territory, rest in PA; IDF officials say they do not see escalation as of yet following Jericho operation

Twelve Qassam rockets were fired at Israel Wednesday morning, with some of them landing in Israeli territory, near the Gaza security fence and in the western Negev area, and the rest landing in Gaza.

....

DF officials believe that the Jericho Operation, together with incidents in Gaza, will cause terror organizations to "release pressure" through Qassam launchings. A military source said that the firing of Qassams after a significant IDF operation in the West Bank is expected, and should not be seen as an escalation.

....

"In the past, when the IDF acted against lone wanted suspects in Tul Karem, we saw a response from Gaza. The fact that most of the rockets are not falling in Israel shows their low quality. In all cases, we are monitoring the incidents and will respond according to necessity," the source said.


The IDF's response up to now has come in the form of artillery rounds on Tuesday at northern Gaza, and it seems that in light of the current incidents in Gaza, and the kidnappings of foreigners, as well as the uncertainty over the crossings in Rafah and Kerem Shalom closed on Tuesday, the IDF will prefer at this stage not to escalate its response, acting with caution.

Ynet

Side bar: Jericho Operation or 'Operation Jericho' or the fundie version Jericho Operation

But THE Jericho Operation is described in this NY Times editorial condemning it just last March:

The acting Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert, should not have allowed the desire to do some election-season muscle-flexing to push him into storming the prison in Jericho with tanks, bulldozers and helicopters. Israeli Army officials ordered inmates to strip to their underwear, which many did, marching out with clothing on their heads, an embarrassing and completely unnecessary provocation that trampled the dignity of any Palestinian watching that spectacle.

Given the humiliations that ordinary Palestinians suffer merely by trying to get through Israeli checkpoints every day, the prison raid just reinforced the already degrading reality of living under foreign occupation.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0316-28.htm">As if That Fire Needed Fuel
NYT via CommonGround

Another blast from the past:

Omlert didn’t take any risk when he initiated the Jericho raid. The recent withdrawal of American and British monitors, who guarded Saadat and his colleagues, encouraged him and facilitated the Israeli operation, which came just weeks before the general elections. Olmert knew that he would win support from right and left-wingers, as well as from the general public. His Kadima party would have been badly hurt if the Israeli raid failed, or if the Palestinian prisoners escaped. The acting Prime Minister would have been seen as a weak leader who can only return Palestinian lands. Both the left and the right would have turned against him. But now, after the arrest of the Palestinian detainees, both Labor and Likud members praised the “security forces”. If the operation wasn’t successful, the criticism would have mainly focused on Olmert, not the army.

At the time of the Jericho operation, Olmert told settlers at Ariel, one of the three largest settlements in the West Bank, that it would be “an integral part of Israel, whatever happens". The move was clearly aimed at comforting the right in the wake of Olmert’s last week announcements. But the Ariel tour was swallowed up by pictures of Palestinian prisoners being marched toward an Israeli jail.

The Jericho operation might be a great election ploy. But it's not the first of its kind in Israel’s history. Famous incidents that took place on the eve of elections include the 1981 destruction Iraq’s Osirak nuclear reactor, or the 1996 Operation Grapes Wrath in southern Lebanon. In both cases, it was obvious that Menachem Begin and Shimon Peres believed that the operations would boost their chances in the polls.

The Kadima party couldn’t have dreamt of a more successful operation only a day before pollsters start their work for the weekend papers. This week’s polls are extremely critical: There will be a general sense that Kadima won the battle if the centrist party’s slide can be halted at 37 or 38 seats in the Knesset less than two weeks before the March 28 election.

Al -Jaz editorial

So if you mean thousands of rockets fired for no reason since 2000, I'll assume you aren't including the ones in retaliation for Israel's incursions into Lebanon or Israel's election campaign in Gaza.

Jeez listening to folks like you I would almost forget that Israel illegally occupied Lebanon for 18 years and that nobody else has a right to defend itself.

Some of us won't forget, even if others do.

[Mr_Spock]

82. Kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill

You love your eye-for-an-eye solutions don't you

:barf:

[lastliberalintexas]

91. Oh goody, another pro-war poster with a peace sign avatar

:eyes:


And if I sound snarky, that's because I am. Because I am sick and damned tired of people dying on all sides, and I am sick and damned tired of seeing the apologists for war on a progressive board.

[Tom Joad]

85. Kidnapped? More like Captured. and Israel has had

lebanese fighters for a long time.

[ThomCat]

14. The problem is to get Israel to stop.

Israel has been crossing the border kidnapping and killing people pretty continuously even after they stopped occupying Lebanon is 2000. Do you really think the people of Lebanon have no right to retaliate? If Israel stopped then there might actually be peace in the middle east.

This idea that Israel is innocent and everyone else is attacking them for no possible reason is just political myth. But of course, you like sarcasm more than facts. You would rather insult people than admit Israel has ever been less than saintly.
:eyes:

[Scriptor Ignotus]

42. interesting statement

"This idea that Israel is innocent and everyone else is attacking them for no possible reason is just political myth"

Agreed. Most Israelis don't think they are being attacked for "no possible reason". They think they are being attacked by people who want to "drive them into the sea", "wipe them out", "kill every Jewish man, woman and child", and so on.

Also, I would definately admit Israel is less than saintly and I think the attacks into Lebannon are a huge mistake and a tragedy of the highest order. However, the situation is not so black and white as some believe and I hope that by speaking up I can get people to acknowledge that.

[ThomCat]

60. It is true that some nutcases would drive Israel into the sea

if they could. But those people have no power to do so. Israel has far too much support (including from people like me) for that to ever happen.

But just like here in the US, the threat of some infinite menace is being used to justify things that cannot otherwise be justified. Attrocities need to be examined based on reality, not absolute hypotheticals.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

77. Jews have learned to take such threats seriously

and with good reason. Also, I'm not so sure the nutcases have no power as you claim. There are many, many outrageous claims made by Arafat, Nasser, Sadat, Ahmadinejad, numerous PA, Hamas, and Fatah officials, powerful newspaper and TV producers in the "Arab Street" and who knows how many other influential clerics throughout the middle east. I'm talking "Elders of Zion" types of statements. These ignorant and hateful comments, made on the record, don't exactly give Israelis an incentive to scale back their aggresive tactics.

I do take your point about the "phantom menace" though but I think what's happening with Bush's WOT is a little different than the situation in Israel. We are under threat of attack to be sure, but it's nowhere near the immediate threat Israel faces and has faced for decades.

[daydreamer]

15. Israeli soldiers were captured INSIDE Lebanon. Which part of

"self-defense" you don't get?

[in_cog_ni_to]

34. NO THEY WERE NOT! Hezbollah crossed into Israel

Jul 12, 11:56 AM (ET)

By JOSEPH PANOSSIAN

(AP) An Israeli mobile artillery piece fires towards southern Lebanon near the Israeli army post of...
Full Image



BEIRUT, Lebanon (AP) - Hezbollah militants crossed into Israel on Wednesday and captured two Israeli soldiers. Israel responded in southern Lebanon with warplanes, tanks and gunboats, and said seven of its soldiers had been killed in the violence.<snip>

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20060712/D8IQHO007.html

Is a Beirut, Lebanon AP source good enough for you?:eyes: Geezus. The lies floating around here are really getting OLD.

[sistersofmercy]

46. wasn't the area in OCCUPIED Shebaa Farms where the soldiers were?

Which is disputed as being Israel's real border. I'm not going to debate whether it is Syrian or Lebanese but what is irrefutable is that is not Israel but a land occupied by Israel. You may want to read the entire story. Go to the bottom of the article. I beleive that is why there is confusion about where the soldiers were kidnapped. Not lies really just blurred borders.

[Bretttido]

50. There you go again, pointing out FACTS and ruining ignorant bliss...

[sistersofmercy]

59. Well...

That made me smile.
I don't know why people can't read and understand the full context of something. It's like they read a few lines and go, "OH HERE"S MY PROOF!!!!I'll argue this talking point." It is funny to see articles referenced that refute their own assertions.
Thanks for the chuckle. Peace

[Behind the Aegis]

56. You seem to be the one confused.

The Shebaa Farms are not part of Lebanon. It is WITHIN Israel as occupied territory from SYRIA. Therefore, the soldiers were taken from WITHIN Israeli borders. Hizb'allah CROSSED the internationally recognized BLUE LINE!

[sistersofmercy]

62. Not confused at all but your reading comprehension is lacking I see.

Did you read my entire post before reacting with your emotional response? Or do you just enjoying using ad hominem attacks. Did I state Shebaa Farms is part of Lebanon? ummmm NO! Did I state it is blurred borders? ummmmmmm YES! Read, think then react!

[Behind the Aegis]

69. My reading is just fine.

The implication is that the soldiers were not taken from Israel because they were taken from occupied territory.

[sistersofmercy]

72. But it isn't Israel proper it's disputed territory

And that is where people get confused. I understand the blue line thing but it really should be referred to as Israel occupied territory not just as Israel since it has not been annexed into Israel proper. It's amazing to me that even clarifying how to describe an area is disputed in this debate. Can you agree that Israel and Israel occupied territory are two very different things? One is an actual country and one is land of another country that it occupies.

[Lurking Dem]

75. Nope.

It was the western side of the border not the eastern.

[Laughing Mirror]

70. Hezbollah's communiqué said "at the border with occupied Palestine" ...

so guess it depends on who you ask.

Lebanese police said in reports that came out at the time that the two soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the region of Ait Al-Chaab, near the Israeli border, where an Israeli unit had penetrated.

Israeli TV broadcast that the soldiers were captured near moshvav Zarit, in Israel.

Ynetnews.com said "abduction of two solders in north," and in the write-up the vague "northern border" was used, as if the reporter was not sure herself.

The IDF refused to confirm Israeli newspaper reports that the guerrillas used a ladder to climb over the electric fence separating the two countries.

The head of Lebanese goverment, Fouad Siniora, Prime Minister, said the capture was on "international territory."

The European Union and UN call the area the Blue Line, and on and on.

Like I said, it depends on your source.

[daydreamer]

89. No it was first reported that

the kidnapping took place in Lebanon by AP. They later changed their story adopting the Isreali official line:
http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html
http://www.drudge.com/news/83777/kidnapped-captured-israel-lebanon

[ComerPerro]

90. Hezbollah should stop rocket attacks, and Saddam should have disarmed

[jsamuel]

2. thank you

[deaniac21]

3. I believe that hundreds of thousands of Israeli lives are in danger

at any date you care to point to on a calender going back to 1948 and indefinately into the future.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

53. .

:eyes:

The genocide "meme." Sad.

[deaniac21]

63. No, the sarcasm meme.

[leveymg]

6. Support Israel and America - Oppose the NeoCon ME Wars.

This imperial overstretch thing the neocons love so much has been a disaster for both Israel and the U.S. That's the reason that Israel had to evacuate Lebanon in May 2000 and why we've had our asses handed to us in Iraq.

It's an inability to learn from past mistakes.

I'm beginning to believe that military and strategic incompetence are a requirement for joining the neoconservative cause.

[sevenleagueboots]

16. what's history got to do with it......

And the end of the fight
is a tombstone white
with the name of the late deceased
And the epitaph drear:
'A fool lies here
who tried to hustle the East."

Kipling

[leveymg]

32. Rudyard is the man!

Read "Kim" and "The Man Who Would be King", and you'll the know the Ins and Outs and Whys and Wherefores of 9/11, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, along with the ME Wars that followed.

[in_cog_ni_to]

7. 80% of the people who actually LIVE there, support Israel in this fight.

They LIVE it on a daily basis and are sick of it. It's time to rid the world of Hezbollah or at least stop them from firing rockets into Israel every freakin' day.

[abluelady]

13. You're right

I just received an email from a cousin over there whose son was just recalled. He is a paratrooper. Needless to say she doesn't sleep anymore, but she also wishes the world would understand what they live with on a daily basis--the keyword being daily.

We can look back over the past 60 years and blame and blame and blame. It doesn't change what is today. The change has to come according to the present. The past cannot be undone. How does one fight terror? Perhaps Israel's response is not right, but what is the right response to terror?

[Virginia Dare]

21. The response to terror is tolerance and moderation...

it's not allowing extremists to take over the policy and the debate. It's staying at the negotiating table. It's believing in humanity.

[in_cog_ni_to]

25. Oh reallY? and that's why MOST Americans supported the Afghanistan war?

I did and so did MANY , if not MOST, DUers. Tolerance and moderation was NOWHERE to be found in THIS country after 911! WHY IS ISRAEL held to a different standard?

[Virginia Dare]

30. I personally don't...

maybe some do. I deplore the taking of any innocent lives in any war.

The American and Israeli people have been sold a bill of goods by our respective governments, which is, that we can wipe out terrorism by waging war. IT IS A PATH TO DESTRUCTION.

[FearofFutility]

74. I've been scratching my head over this trying to figure out

what I believe about the whole mess. The comparison with Afghanistan is right on.

[in_cog_ni_to]

38. I hope your cousin is safe! and her son comes home to her

soon! My son's Hebrew teacher grew up in Israel and her entire family and all her Israeli friends support this. Living it every day is quite different than sitting in the USA passing judgement. My best to your cousin and her son. HOPEFULLY this will all be over SOON!

[daydreamer]

18. 80% were also in favor of W. Propaganda, you know.

[Fredda Weinberg]

22. How quickly we forget ... WTC was hit twice

By people whose ideology judges us worthy of bestial treatment. I believe the story I heard of a 9/11 passenger whose throat was slit; I wonder how many Americans do.

I can understand how a value system that evolved to handle scarcity can attack meaningless prosperity as evil but don't want to remain a sitting target for armed extremists.

Some of the more inflammatory posts on this board sound eerily like those who want violence. It's hard to find cooler heads, so many have offered their lives in the name of peace.

[jonnyblitz]

24. we were hit by people who used the same rationalization

for the WTC victims deaths that Israel uses when they collectively punish their opponents.

[ThomCat]

61. You won't convince the people who have already

put on their pro-Israeli blinder. Israel is unique, can't be judged by the standards that apply to anyone else, and can't be held responsible for anything they do.

[Fredda Weinberg]

81. To the contrary

Israel is run by people like us who have wanted the fighting to end for centuries. Affluence in the Middle East didn't start with Israel and the ideological conflicts have gone on since ideas were first conceived.

I see restraint on both sides which was lacking in previous military engagements. The UN is engaged without being a pawn of Cold War politics.

If religious and secular can come to an accommodation anywhere, it will start there.

I can understand your pessimism; it's tough to accept what's being done in our name as Americans. But as a Zionist, I'm seeing inevitable fighting from people who could negotiate. Hezbollah's part of the government and should disarm. Would we accept a GOP militia?

[bvar22]

29. The answer to THAT is to find the criminals responsible...

...and bring them to justice....
NOT making WAR on Women and Children and bombing them back to the stone age.
THAT response makes them (or us) no better than the terrorists.

BTW: How has that policy been working out in Afghanistan & Iraq?

[AliceWonderland]

33. Well said.

The way we wage war and conduct our foreign policy also says were see certain folks in a bestial manner. It also ain't working out so well.

Which was entirely foreseeable.

Actually, some folks *did* see it.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leveymg]

36. Hezbollah wasn't firing rockets at Israeli civilians before 7/12.

You know that, and I know that you know that. So, please stop saying the war was the result of the damned Katyushas. It wasn't.

Yes, there were a thousands other things the Israelis were sick of, such as some military border skirmish casualties (about 25) and a few abduction attempts by Hezbollah, but that wasn't an existential threat to Israel.

I'll tell you what is: a withdrawal of American public support for funding Israel's military, and that will the result if this bloodbath doesn't stop.

[Breeze54]

71. Suicide bombers joined Hezbollah in Lebanon

Yeah, they're innocent...
:sarcasm:

Iran: Suicide bombers joined Hezbollah in Lebanon, militant says
Thu. 20 Jul 2006

Tehran, 20 July (AKI) -

A spokesman for an Iranian militant group which claims to have 55,000 would-be suicide
bombers among its members said on Thursday that 27 of its men have joined Hezbollah
militias in Lebanon to fight against Israel.
"The first two groups of esteshhadioun (volunteers of martyrdom) have already reached
Lebanon," Mohammad Ali Samadi told Adnkronos International (AKI).
Speaking on the phone from the organization's headquarters in Tehran, Samadi said the
militants reached Lebanon through Syria.

The spokesman for the Headquarters for the Glory of Martyrs of the International Movement
said its militants in Lebanon were "27 people selected from the 55,000 members who spoke
fluent Arabic and have received adequate training to fight beside their Lebanese brothers
against the Zionist enemy."

The spokesman however said the militants would not engage in combat but would
"identify Zionist targets and then attack them with actions of martyrdom."

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7978


If they're so 'innocent', why do they claim to have 55,000 trained suicide-bombers?
I mean, they don't want war, right? They're a peace-loving group! :sarcasm:
They're just a 'social organization' "helping people", is that it?
And if they have suicide bombers ready to go, they can't have just trained them
over night, right? Must have been planning for this all along maybe?
No, wait a minute, they're a peace loving group! What was I thinking?
But I thought Hezbollah members were Lebonese! They aren't?
:sarcasm:

[leveymg]

80. That isn't a really reliable site. I would take the proclamations

of such groups with a great mountain of salt. Besides, that story seems to refer to post- 7/12 events. I'm talking about the situation before the current invasion.

I never said Hezbollah was "innocent" - I'm merely pointing out that the Anti-Defamation League found that Hezbollah wasn't directly responsible for any terrorist attacks on civilians leading to death during the period after Israel withdrew from Lenanon until the start of the war in July. Furthermore, Hezbollah didn't launch any fatal rocket attacks on Israeli civilians during that time. There was one man killed by anti-aircraft shells in a border settlement in August 2003, but it is not clear that he was intentionally targeted.

Those are the facts as we know them. If you can refute them with reliable information, I am open to revise that assessment.

[eridani]

88. They weren't there before the invasion and bombing

I'd say the invasion and bombing caused that response.

[Lurking Dem]

76. The HELL they weren't!

[Bretttido]

52. You can fool 29% of the people all of the time...

And 80% of the people every once in a while...

[Hoping4Change]

54. The Hezbollah didn't exist until Israel invaded Lebanon in the 80's.

The notion that guerilla groups are gotten rid by military is outright insanity. All Israel has done is inspire more hatred against it and swell the ranks of terrorists groups.

[Mr_Spock]

83. Well, I guess it's OK to murder babies then

1 day old babies.

[Hoosier Dem]

9. Very well said...

I feel the same way. While I fully support Israel going after Hezboallah, their tactics have left me appalled. The wholsale carnage in Lebanon cannot be seen by any sane person as "justified". The images on the nightly news make me ill.

When even a right-wing nut like Netanyahu says it's a bad idea, maybe somebody should listen. What appears to be happening is a war with no plan or no exit strategy (gosh, where have I seen that before??) that is now degenerating into a killing ground.

Of course, I don't expect any kind of moral stance to come out of this White House. The sensible thing to do would have been to tell Israel "OK, go after Hezboallah all you want. You just need to STOP TARGETING CIVILIANS!! If you don't, you're on your own."

Can you imagine the outrage is we had decided just to carpet-bomb Afghanistan in 2002 rather than do the precision strikes we did?? Of course, there will always be some unintended civilian casualties, that's just a fact of war. However, I draw the line at wholesale carnage.

Enough is enough!! :cry:

[deaniac21]

11. Support athletics instead.

[phillinweird247]

57. I've got tons of athletic support! HA-HA n/t

[deaniac21]

68. Sounds painful...

[Cassandra]

20. You can support Israel as a state and still think...

their tactics have been stupid and short sighted, just as we support America as a country, even though we are being governed by murderous assholes.
Gene Lyons had a good comment this morning
"Israel’s reaction to Hezbollah’s provocation struck me as tragic and self-defeating. Writing in American Prospect, Matthew Yglesias explained why: “Israel’s current war in Lebanon is strategically blinkered and morally obtuse. The idea that the United States or American Jews like me should support it out of friendship is akin to the notion that a real friend would lend a car to a drunk buddy after the bartender confiscates his keys.”

Yglesias argues that, while infuriating, Hezbollah’s crimes posed no existential threat to the state of Israel. Possessing no tanks, airplanes, ships or heavy artillery, Hezbollah is incapable of waging an offensive war.

“Israel’s Hezbollah problem is not,” he continued, “fundamentally one amenable to forcible resolution. The issue is less the presence of an armed anti-Israeli militia just north of Israel’s border than the widespread public support just north of Israel’s border for the presence of an armed anti-Israeli militia.”

Complaining that the weak, factionridden Lebanese government hadn’t disarmed Hezbollah, Israel began what appeared a calculated effort to destroy its authority, even bombing the very Lebanese army it expected to do the disarming. And then what ? Short of depopulating Lebanon up to the Litani River, whose waters Israel has long been accused of coveting, a surer means of driving the country into the hands of Islamic extremists can’t be imagined.

"We're being led to blame countries for wars that are pushed by the neo-cons; American, Israeli, Arab and European neo-cons. We need the separate the neo-con warmongers from power so that the rest of us can go back to speaking with each other.

[malaise]

23. Bingo

Complaining that the weak, factionridden Lebanese government hadn’t disarmed Hezbollah, Israel began what appeared a calculated effort to destroy its authority, even bombing the very Lebanese army it expected to do the disarming. And then what ? Short of depopulating Lebanon up to the Litani River, whose waters Israel has long been accused of coveting, a surer means of driving the country into the hands of Islamic extremists can’t be imagined.

[Cassandra]

44. Even if that line isn't the true motivation, this line...

"The issue is less the presence of an armed anti-Israeli militia just north of Israel’s border than the widespread public support just north of Israel’s border for the presence of an armed anti-Israeli militia."

says that this is a political problem rather than a military one.

[malaise]

67. Why would the Israeli government

believe that they could win Lebanese support using these methods? They have simply bombed the living daylights out of Lebanon.

There is no doubt that they completely misread the thinking of Lebanese people re Hizbollah. Further whether all Lebanese support Hizbollah or not, they all know that only Hizbollah will stand up and fight rather than hand over their land. It speaks volumes re 1. the mentality of Israeli leadership; 2. the lack of political and military savoir faire of that leadership; 3. an unbelievably poor intelligence network. Israel has not achieved a single aim as they continue bombing into the fourth week.

Now they're spinning that they are no longer attempting to minimize Hizbollah totally. Even they are now admitting that they cannot achieve that goal. That hospital raid last night was an abysmal failure or they would have shown the senior Hizbollah man by now.

As the killing enters week four I can only conclude that Israel can only bully the poor disorganized Palestinians.

[Cassandra]

73. The bombing is being ordered by those who just want to bomb...

Lebanon, not by people looking to gain Lebanese support. These are another branch of the same neo-con fools who think shock and awe wins hearts and minds.

[malaise]

84. Yep

they will learn.

[Mandate My Ass]

Yup. A resource war disguising itself as a fight against terrorism

Where did they get that idea from, I wonder?

[Mandate My Ass]

26. Yup. A resource war disguising itself as a fight against terrorism

Where did they get that idea from, I wonder?

[MrPrax]

37. Oh your just upset...

Have faith and forget about the fact that starting two years ago there was US sponsored peace plan in Lebanon that successfully removed Syrian troops and had fairly democratic elections. One could see that if this process had continued then the Bush administration would have actually been able to point to one success in the region.

But Israel thought otherwise and decided to utterly destroy the country of Lebanon and it's armies making this iniative to peace completely dead. So no potential to ever bring Lebanon fully into the fold, the arab nations have all lined up against Israel and US (inspite of progress in that area in which early on, most Arab nations condemned Hezbullah, but now can't anymore) and Israel is free to use the same rationale they did back in 1982 when they destroyed Lebanon.

But at that time it was the PLO and their alleged rockets which caused Sharon to basically do the same thing they are doing now -- utter destruction with some vague notion of an international peace force that was blown up as soon as it hit the ground.

All Out To Protect Israel!!

[breakaleg]

55. totally agree.

It's difficult to argue one side in this case because one side is talking about the present, and another is talking about the past.

Every time there is progress, something like this occurs.

I don't see how Israel can claim to want peace. It's just not evident in their actions.

[MrPrax]

64. Yup...

That's the strategy of any extremist -- everything is Year Zero in their arguments...not only the radical Zionists, but this goes for any fanatic governed by faith and conviction...religosity, nationalism as a motive is atemporal, just like the faith and conviction. You can use the same args regardless of the situation...think of the Pro-Lifer...the arg will always be the same regardless of the legislation being purposed.

That's why I harp on the hypocrisy -- clearly one can see less than noble motives in US and British neo-cons attack on Iraq -- but such speculation regarding Israel is offlimits. Israel can have NO OTHER interests other than noble self-defense. The fact that the only one's attacking Israel are directly involved with immediate border disputes and land that Israel illegally occupies, never seems to enter into their arguments simply because the Supporters want Israel to occupy and annex those territories -- they support a Greater Israel and hate any two-state solution.

[IronLionZion]

78. I want to visit the holy land before it gets completely destroyed.

WWJD or rather WWJB - Who Would Jesus Bomb?

[Tom Joad]

87. People who go there should also visit the West Bank...

Wonderful people there too. Listen to their stories. Learn something.
watch how Palestinians are treated at checkpoints (hundreds of them scattered throughout the west bank) Imagine how you would feel if your grandmother were told with a kid with a M-16 she can't return to her home in the village after a doctor's appt. Imagine that what you are seeing is repeated over and over again hundreds of times, every day. Imagine seeing upscale, water-filled, Jewish only settlements in the west bank while you are sitting in improvished communities... and the people who once owned the land live in the poverty, while immigrants from Russia are allowed to live in the settlements.