Does Hezbollah have a right to defend itself?

[leftofthedial]

[kentuck]

1. With what?

out-dated missiles? They cannot defend themselves with missiles. Their only hope is to suck the Israelis into door-to-door combat - like the Americans in Baghdad. Then they have a chance. Otherwise, they cannot defend themselves against the armaments of Israel.

[leftofthedial]

3. with rocks and their bare hands if necessary.

it will definitely be a guerilla war-insurgency.

[Renew Deal]

2. Shouldn't the question be: Does Hezbollah have a right to exist?

That's a much more interesting discussion.

EDIT: I did not see that "Is Hezbollah legit" poll before posting this.

[leftofthedial]

4. Does it?

My assumption is that it does exist and that it will continue to exist (in some form).

[El Fuego]

6. Or are they just a terrorist organization posing as a legitimate party?

Which is what they are.

[eFriendly]

10. One might read that and conclude the opposite. . .

That Israel is ALSO a terrorist organization posing as a sovereign nation. Using acts of terrorism against its neighbors under the false guise of military defense.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... then, by God, it MUST be a duck.

[leftofthedial]

13. Israel is a terrorist nation, without question

they use terror against Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon.

[El Fuego]

44. Military action by nations is generally not "terror" by definition

The terrorist has a political agenda, and wants to create fear and chaos in a population to provide a catalyst for change. Even proactive military action by Israel isn't terrorism, because their agenda is self-preservation. They are trying to eliminate the enemy, not terrorize the civilization population for the sake of creating fear.

(BUT, that being said, bush's bombing of Baghdad probably IS terrorism by definition. What does "Shock and Awe" mean, if not terror.)

[leftofthedial]

54. are you seriously pretending that Hezbollah and Hamas

have no political aims

that fear is their end goal?

[El Fuego]

70. No, I am saying Israel is not a "terrorist nation"

Israel is acting in self-defense. Hezbollah and Hamas ARE terrorists with the politcal aim of destroying Israel.

[JackNewtown]

108. edit: wrong thread nt

[chimpymustgo]

115. Israel is defending it's right to terrorize is Arab neighbors.

That's all they're DEFENDING. They have gone so far beyond the pale. Who could side with that murder and destruction?

[leftofthedial]

57. many states are terrorist

currently, the US, UK and Israel are three prime examples.

[DemonFighterLives]

86. Self- preservation

You could've fooled me. It looks like bald faced aggression.
:dem:

[El Fuego]

91. Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon in 2000

And Hezbollah took advantage by using the area to launch missiles into Israel.

[leftofthedial]

12. how do they differ from, for example, the GOP

whose policies have killed and terrorized far more people than Hezbollah?

The GOP poses as a legitimate political party too, hoping people won't notice that they seized power in a coup.

So any group that does not have its own country (as recognized by the wealthy and powerful) is illegitimate?

Any group that wages assymetrical warfare against a military power is illegitimate?

I'm not defending Hezbollah. Terrorism is a particularly reprehensible form of mass murder. Indiscriminately bombing civilian targets is terrorism, whether you do it by strapping explosives to your body or by dropping bombs from jets.

[El Fuego]

49. Does the GOP have a right to exist?

Sorry, couldn't resist. :evilgrin:

[leftofthedial]

55. no

they should be exterminated.

[El Fuego]

71. you are correct sir

[Sparkly]

83. The GOP doesn't have its own separate militia.

And if it did, and used that militia to gain power, I'd say NO.

Would you?

[leftofthedial]

98. What do you consider the PNAC wing of the CIA to be?

how about the US Military, which has been a wing of the GOP for as long as I remember and probably since the Civil War

how about all the mercenaries in Iraq?

I think the GOP has absolutely used its "militia" to gain power and to exercise control over its objectives

[Sparkly]

99. I do not believe that

the US Military is "a wing of the GOP."

I do believe that's what the GOP wants YOU to believe.

[leftofthedial]

105. I believe Afghanistan, Iraq and other recent military

ventures prove that a significant portion of the military is a defacto wing of the GOP

they are willing to commit war crimes in service of GOP aims.

The purges of the officer's corps of the past 5 years has shifted the military leadership even farther to the right.

[Sparkly]

106. I believe you are dead wrong.

The military is trained to follow orders, period.

They've followed those orders under both Democratic and Republican control.

The responsibility lies with the leadership, PERIOD -- not the men and women who've volunteered to serve.

[leftofthedial]

107. It's not (mostly) the ranks I worry about

but the generals and hardcore career leadership are overwhelmingly neocon

regardless, the military has been used willingly to further PNAC and neocon goals


and Israel is behaving like Cheney's personal militia right now.

[RagingInMiami]

20. One person's "terrorist group"

Is another person's "freedom fighters".

[ConservativeDemocrat]

7. Call me a student of real-politik...

...but it's totally a moot point.

Whether or not anyone thinks Hezboallah has a "right" to exist, it obviously does. And anybody who doesn't have a very large army, willing to use it at 100 times the ferocity of Israel, has no power to eliminate it.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[barb162]

30. In jail on the Lebanese dime

As far as I am concerned I will go by the US State Dept list of terror organizations and they're on it

[leftofthedial]

43. isn't that the same organization that testified before the UN

that Iraq had WMD's? Lots and lots of WMD's?

Good source . . .

[cool user name]

58. According to the US's own self-serving definition,

The US is definitely a terrorist organization.

As long as we are going by definitions and all. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

77. Do you have a right to exist?

Flabbergasting. Really.

Just flabbergasting.

[Renew Deal]

112. So you disagree that they lost their right to exist

after (name your bombing of civilians here)? They are not a nation. They are not an ethnicity. They are nothing more than a gang.

[Finder]

5. Not as an organization separate from the Lebanese government.n/t

[leftofthedial]

8. Do you believe this is true of any nongovernment group?

Once a group becomes refugees, they become powerless?

For example, the French, Polish, Dutch and Belgian armies that fought with the Allies in WWII after their countries were conquered, had no right to do so?

Interesting doctrine.

[Renew Deal]

9. They are a separate military organization than the central Leb. govt.

I think that's a problem and puts them in the class of barbarians.

[leftofthedial]

15. so any group you do not recognize are barbarians

are Hezbollah, Hamas and others who do not recognize Israel as legitimate justified in considering them barbarians?

[Renew Deal]

18. No, this is part of a completely different point.

This has nothing to do with Israel specifically. Today's modern terrorist is really similar to the barbarian of the past. They are independent and uncontrolled by the government and they are armed. Generally what makes them similar to barbarians is attacking their neighbors. So I consider an organization in a country with a central government and uncontrolled armed wing that attacks citizens and/or neighbors barbarians.

Today's modern day terrorist is really todays modern day barbarian.

[fujiyama]

62. People who don't recognize Israel

as a legitimate nation are deluded fanatics who deny reality.

The problem with Hezbollah and Hamas' "goals" is that they seek ultimate destruction of a nation. These are not political goals in any sense. They are messiahnical irrational thoughts that have no basis in reality.

Of course, I think it's also irrational to believe you can bomb villages, killing hundreds of civilians in the process, to capture or kill members of a murderous gang of thugs, and then believe that in the long run that will somehow bring a more secure and safe future.

[Finder]

16. They are a political party now so need to work with and through the gov...

of Lebanon.

[davidinalameda]

29. you're comparing anti-Semetic terrorsts to the armies

that fought with the allies in WW2

interesting

[leftofthedial]

45. Hezbollah ARE Semites. And I'm asking. Not comparing.

and I didn't get an answer.

[davidinalameda]

87. excuse me

anti-JEWISH terrorists

is that better?

sorry if I was using the common term for those who hate Jews--anti-Semites

and I thought your statement was a rhetorical question

the Dutch, French and other troops were not sending suicide bombers into populated areas in an attempt to drive the Germans out of Germany, but they were fighting with Allied troops in an effort to liberate their homelands

I'd think that since the Hezbollah are part of the Lebanese goverment, that they're Lebanese and if so, why are they attempting to wipe Israel off the map?

that is their goal, no?

[CTyankee]

68. It is interesting. You know, we went to total war in WW2

and we bombed the living crap out of Dresden and Berlin, not tomention what we did in Hiroshima and Nagasaka.

We demanded "unconditional surrender" if you will recall. Interesting. We were all for it at the time.

Now not so much, I see.

[Totallybushed]

11. There wuld be no

need for Hezbollah to defend itself if it didn't keep lobbing missles into Israel and kidnapping soldiers.

[leftofthedial]

47. that is a disingenuous claim

as would be the argument that there would be no need for Hezbollah to defend itself if Israel would unilaterally disarm and leave the region.

[Llewlladdwr]

92. So then...

It's impossible for Hezbollah to exist without killing Israelis?

[Dr Batsen D Belfry]

14. That depends

I would be inclined to say yes, but the question is, defend themselves from what?

The facts of this situation are that Hezbollah lobbed shells into a foreign country, then abducted several citizens of that country from their soil. Seems to me that was an act of agression.

My argument is they initiated the act, so are they really defending themselves by their actions? If they were merely fighting with Israeli soldiers in Lebanon, I would consider it defense. Firing missiles, rockets, and mortars at civilian targets inside Israel is not defense.

Let's look at this in a different light. If someone breaks into your house, you wind up drawing a gun on them, and they are stupid enough to try to fight, can they claim self defense? Most logical conclusions (from the western perpective anyway) would say Hell No...

DBDB

[bloom]

17. "If someone breaks into your house, you wind up drawing a gun on them..."

Yes - and the Palestinians never gave up their house. They are still defending it. Some of their neighbors are helping.

[Zynx]

37. Hezbollah are emphatically not Palestinian

[bloom]

39. They are the neighbors.

And it seems that Israel is uniting those neighbors in a war against itself.

[leftofthedial]

48. at what point does Israel's response become an attack of its own?

warfare is fluid and requires two or more parties to exist.

[leftofthedial]

56. the chronology of the current crisis is in dispute

but is disingenuous at best anyway, since the conflict has been going on for a long time. Choosing an arbitrary "starting point" is meaningless.

[pelsar]

19. Hizballa is a bunch of thugs

it seems there some confusion here: Hizballa occupied S. Lebanon as well as S.Beirut. The Lebanes army/police couldnt go there, they practice a facist, theocratic method of govt to the people "under them." The makes schools and hospitals all paid for by a foreign govt and the "taxes" they take from the residents of s.lebanon.

in short they are the worst than than any gangbanger/maifa types as they have a stronger army than the lebanese....

the only thing they are defending against is their right to oppress the lebanese and take over parts of lebanon.

what baffles the mind is that people here actually defend those facist fanatic thugs....but then this is the DU.

(funniest thing is that the arab countries are hoping israel will wipe them out as well)

[Finder]

24. Total bullshit. American students in Beirut can tell you their take...

and if Hez was as "barbaric" as many try to portray them as being we would not be sending our children there for an education or vacationing there.

[leftofthedial]

50. sounds almost exactly like Israel.

Hmm.

[Deja Q]

117. Thank you

And, yes, other Arabic countries have sided against Hezbollah on this as well.

There are lines.

hezbollah crossed them.

And in this day and age with Hezbollah's allies making loud and equally stupid remarks, what do they expect - candy and flowers?! :sarcasm:

[GOPBasher]

21. I think both sides are pieces of horseshit that are bent on

leading the world into WWIII. It'll make the Christian right happy; they want the apocalypse.

I think both Israel and all the terrorist organizations are pieces of shit. They should stop fucking fighting. It's simple.

[deaniac21]

22. I nominate you Secretary of State.

[eFriendly]

26. I'll second that nomination! n/t

:applause:

[DemonFighterLives]

89. Don't be so sensible now

You are confusing us.
:dem:

[Lilith Velkor]

23. Does anybody have a right to defend Lebanon?

[eFriendly]

31. If you ask me. . .

I say Hell Yeah! Lebanon and its people deserve be defended against Israel.

But if you ask an Israelite... I'd bet they'd say no.

[Lilith Velkor]

38. I did ask an Israeli

She said yes.

Try not to stereotype, please.

[pelsar]

40. i'm a israeli..

and yes the lebanese have every right to defend lebanon..and if they had done that we sure as hell wouldnt be blasting them to hell.

They should have kicked out the Hizballa years ago, prevented them from bringing in 14,000 missles, etc and protected their own southern border, like the syrians do to their border, like the jordanians do and like the egyptians do....

[cool user name]

59. Circular argument?

and yes the lebanese have every right to defend lebanon..and if they had done that we sure as hell wouldnt be blasting them to hell.

Somewhat of a circular argument, don't you think?

I mean really. If we would stop pounding them then they wouldn't need to defend themself.

:shrug:

[meti57b]

90. Lebanese need to defend themselves from Hizbollah's ....

occupation of their country and and using Lebanese land to launch rockets from.

[Lilith Velkor]

111. Kinda hard to do while Israel is bombing the shit outa them

dontcha think?

If the cops firebombed your house, would you blame the mafiosi who hang out six blocks away?

[fujiyama]

63. You have an interesting point

when you refer to the border with Egypt, Jordan, and for that matter, even Syria.

It was very easy for the Syrian government to have sponsored Hezbollah all these years knowing that any retaliatory strikes would be against Lebanon. I have to say that was a pretty cynical thing to do. It reminds me of Bush's "we're fighting them over there, so we won't fight them over there" line. After all, it's OK to have others die for your own political agenda.

Granted, the border with Syria is anything but peaceful, but it hasn't erupted in this much violence. I wish the Lebanese government had actually done something to restrict Hezbollah from firing the rockets but it has been a weak and fragile peace there - and this president completely ignored it anyways and basically just gave the RW Israeli government the green light to act in whatever reckless manner it saw fit.

But I still think Israel's belief that it can "beat" Hezbolla seems deluded. The killing of hundreds of civilians, will unfortunately drive many to Hezbolla's defense, in the short run, and especially the long run.

[leftofthedial]

66. Kind of like the US has done with Israel itself

eh?

I agree, war will not change anything in this region

[leftofthedial]

65. apparently not

[ShortnFiery]

25. Watch out folks - Agents Mike and Mary are taking extensive notes!

:blush: Hey ya Agent Mike! :hi:

[Deja Q]

116. Actually, it's Mike and Carol.

and Hezbollah has no right to be aggressive. Aggressors do no society any good at all. And if they are THE society...

Hezbollah has no right to "defend" itself whatsoever. All they will do is kill, kill, and kill some more or die trying. When they make a move to ask for real peace, let me know.

Both sides haven't been good boys all the time. Quite nasty toddlers in their sandbox. Trouble is, I don't recall Israel or their local friends saying "Let's blow _____ off the map". That's not just loud; that's brazen, boisterous, considerably heavy posturing, Iran's allies (which includes Hezbollah) will hear and heed those words, and under that much tension I'm not surprised Israel responded with such ferocity. Knee-jerk, yes, but looking at recent events, I can't blame them. Hezbollah, et al, have to make the first move.

[davidinalameda]

27. defend?

good question especially since they're ones that started this whole mess

I don't see how an active terrorist group does anything except for fight and kill

[Kahuna]

28. Everybody has a "right" to defend themselves. Is this

a trick question? :shrug:

[sandnsea]

32. And DU lefties think they're the base, lol

This is without question the most disgusting thing I've ever seen at DU. Terrorists have a right to defend themselves. Wow. Just incredible. When red state voters "vote against their best interests", they're actually voting against insane shit like this.

[Renew Deal]

35. According to DU....

Hezbollah has more of a right to defend itself than Israel.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1788669&mesg_id=1788669

[Marie26]

36. Wow

*shakes head sadly* So a paramilitary/terrorist organization has more right to self-defense than a country? I realize people are angry at Israel, but wow.

[pelsar]

41. maybe now you understand...

why 80% of the israelis are for what the IDF is doing...an that includes most on the left side of the line....Hizballa occupies s.lebanon, terrorizes its inhabitants, runs its own little country down there, + parts of beruit with an army including 14,000 missles...attacks periodically a country that has a border sanctioned by all involved.....

and people here defend them.....

[jonnyblitz]

46. that is because most people see through the complete bullshit

that your side tries to spew.

[leftofthedial]

52. Kill! Kill! Kill!

Kill everyone! Kill 'em all!

They are subhuman! Kill!

And if any civilians get in the way, that's not our fault. Kill! Kill 'em all!

[cool user name]

61. Thou Shalt Not Kill* ...

*Commandmant not available where prohibited:

i.e.,

Israel
United States of America

[jsamuel]

42. Unfortuantely this is a direct result of the failed policy.

This problem of losing "hearts and minds" is exactly why this policy does not work.

DIRECTLY
Suicide Anti-Terrorism

[leftofthedial]

51. "terrorists"

you mean those who use bombs to kill innocent civilians in order to intimidate their political enemies?

[BushOut06]

82. As repulsive as I find Hezbollah and Hamas...

I find your statement even more repulsive. "And DU lefties think they're the base, lol?" I may disagree with some of those "DU lefties", but I consider myself to be a "leftie" as well.

Please, we're not like the GOP, where everyone pretty much follows the party line and kisses their leader's ass.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

101. I agree with you, sandnsea

[Marie26]

33. Does Al-Queda have a right to defend itself? nt

[leftofthedial]

53. as wholly owned brandname of the CIA

I'd say yes.

[Marie26]

72. How's that? nt

[leftofthedial]

104. If the PNAC'ers and neocons in the CIA

(who thoughtfully provide us with the occasional al Qaeda missive want to defend themselves, then sure. why not?

[Marie26]

109. So it's OK

if Al-Queda wants to launch an attack against US troops to "defend itself?" Similar to the USS Cole bombing? Just wanted to be clear.

[Zynx]

34. Just...wow.

[baldguy]

60. No. The armed faction of Hezbollah is a criminal enterprise.

The correct question is "Does LEBANON have a right to defend itself?"

[leftofthedial]

64. thank you for taking the red pencil to my thread.

the GOP is a criminal enterprise. With the war crimes they have committed in the last week alone, Israel is a criminal enterprise.

:shrug:

[CTyankee]

67. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization with a mission to destroy Israel

Why in the world would we support that?

[jrd200x]

69. That's funny. THEY'RE NOT A COUNTRY PEOPLE

they are a terrorist army.

WHEN WILL YOU PEOPLE WAKE UP? THEY WANT TO KILL YOU ALSO.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

73. Criminals have no right of self defense

Bank robbers may not shoot cops and claim it was only self defense.

Hezbollah is the aggressor, and is not entitled to defend itself against actions that it iniates.

[leftofthedial]

74. so, since Israel has been committing war crimes for over a week now,

you believe they no longer have a right to defend themselves.

Thank you.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

76. No I don't believe that

But you are welcome to believe as you choose.

Thank you.

[leftofthedial]

79. assume for a moment that a recognized international body

(even more widely recognized than leftofthedial, if you can imagine that!) declared that Israel had committed war crimes

and in retaliation, Syria and Iran joined Hezbollah and Hamas in rocketing Israel.

would that mean that Israel is no longer allowed to defend itself?

why?

[Freedom_Aflaim]

85. Maybe, maybe not

That is a much more complex and fluid situation which certainly would take more than 2 or 3 sentences to describe fully, and to adjudicate fairly.

Im not going to give Israel an automatic pass though.

In the case of Hezbolla, they are quite clearly the aggressors and terrorist in this situation. They are the criminals and have no right to defend themselves.

The only moral thing for Hezbolla to do, is to stop their aggression and learn to accept peace.

Israel for their part has a number of choices, NONE of which are optimal, or even clearly moral. Is it moral for Israel to do nothing while Hezbolla slaughters their citizens? Is it moral for Israel to shoot back in defense of its innocents, even though it means that innocents of the aggressors terrority may die?

The choices of Israel are debatable and folks in good conscious can disagree. The actions of Hezbolla are indefensible and such that no moral person can support.

[leftofthedial]

94. well stated

:toast:

[EFerrari]

78. A WEEK? That's very generous. n/t

[leftofthedial]

80. (for Israel's apologists, no history in the region

older than July 12 is apparently relevant . . .

[EFerrari]

84. And crazy. n/t

[InaneAnanity]

75. Lebanon does

Hezbollah is an organization, not a country, so no.

[leftofthedial]

95. so only countries have the right to self defense?

millenia of legal precedent, allowing one to kill in defense of one's life or another's life, is in error then?

:shrug:

[upi402]

81. Hezbollah should have "rights"????

Maybe Al Qaeda should to???

People, civillians should have a human right. Terror organizations do not.

[EFerrari]

88. And dehumanzing stakeholders has worked so well. n/t

[leftofthedial]

97. who gets to define "terrorist"?

george bush?

Likud?

[LostinVA]

113. Al Qaeda and Hezbollah are very different organizations

Hezbollah can more rightly be said to be MORE akin to the IRA and thus Sinn Fein. They both grew from the same basic reason, have both a political and military arm that aren't always in sync with one another, etc.

I voted "yes," because I would vote "yes" for Israel if the tables were turned and Hezbollah launched a murderous air and ground attack inside Israel's borders. THis needs to be handled differently starting now.

And, at this point, no one is defending the civilians left in So. Lebanon EXCEPT Hezbollah.... this will make them heroes to some people there... and, just like the aftermath of "Bloody Sunday: and the IRA, Hezbollah's ranks will swell.

[TheFarseer]

93. They have the right to quit fighting

and try to make a better life for themselves however they may go about that *peacefully*

[Fountain79]

96. Is Hezbollah a nation? n/t

[Minstrel Boy]

100. Half of Lebanon sees Hezbollah as a component of national defense

Regardless of whether that's good or bad, that's how it is.

[AliceWonderland]

102. "Overwhelming support for Hezbollah"

Well, it's hard to have an actual debate about this, since apparently some war criminals are just fine, especially if they have lots and lots of really expensive weapons and a state to call their own.

However, this is an interesting interview:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/27/1423248&mode=thread&tid=25

Amal Saad Ghorayeb. Professor at the Lebanese American University in Beirut, talking on Democracy Now about support in Lebanon for Hezbollah... informative, especially if one is trying to understand the problem and not rack up talking points.

[mmonk]

110. Depends on a person's point of view

not shaped in a vacuum but realities they are living.

[mmonk]

103. I've never heard of that country.

[Bretttido]

114. Everyone has a right to DEFEND themselves