Hysterical! H'zbollah As Legitimate as ICRC, WHO And AI.

[cali]

Over 30 people have, in a poll here, deemed H'zbollah as credible an organization as those listed above. I take it that people who voted for legitimacy on this level, support the ICRC, WHO, and AI, and therefore feel no compunction as translating the vote for legitimacy as support for H'zbollah. So much for the meme that there's no support for H'zbollah on DU.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Oh there is claer support and at times I wonder why I

even bother readying DU any more, but so oftern I find jewels of posts asking good questions. Less and less lately though as emotion has taken over

[atreides1]

5. Emotion on both sides of the issue

Not just one.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. That is why I said emotion has taken over

and yes there are days I wonder if I should stop readying DU... as a general statement

[Marie26]

58. It's hysteria, IMO. nt

[Finder]

2. Legitimacy does not equal support. Also...

ICRC, WHO and AI are not political parties holding seats in parliament of any government. Apples and oranges.

[Minstrel Boy]

3. not necessarily

I think sometimes responses to polls here, especially now, can amount to Oh yeah? Well take that!

At least, I know that's been me a few times.

[patdem]

8. Ding Ding Ding..we have a winner folks!

I agree...in the beginning it was well their (Israel's) policy is like the neo-cons..........NOW it has become...YOU BABY KILLER..

The other side...well Israel has a right to defend itself...................NOW it is you are an anti-semite you would prefer it if hitler had won WW2

[cali]

9. Yeah,

it's hard to know how many people indulged in that. Still, I think there's clearly support for H'zbollah on DU, but it invariably gets denied. Frankly, I don't care that much. My position is that until H'zbollah gives up its military (or joins with the Lebanese army) and terrorist activities it isn't a legitimate organization, despite their legitimate activities, politically and in the arena of social services.

[k_jerome]

4. are you really that surprised? nt.

[Kagemusha]

6. Israel has no compunctions about bombing the others there, too.

So I guess they are as legitimate as Hezbollah...

[alcibiades_mystery]

21. LOL

Turnabout is fair play, I guess...

[Skidmore]

7. Last time I heard they hold political offices in a legitimate

government. What's more legitimate than formal recognition as a viable political group. Their political views may stink, but that does not make them illegitimate. Look, we have the GOP here. Their political views stink and the laws they foist on us reek, but they are legitimate. Just because you don't like a group, doesn't mean that they don't have to be dealt with.

[cali]

11. The GOP

isn't firing rockets into blue states, or capturing soldiers in cross border raids. As far as I know, the GOP never blew up a Jewish Community Center in Argentina (1996) killing 95. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking. It has to do with viable comparisons, and yours wasn't.

[Skidmore]

13. If the GOP were doing those things, I imagine you would have the same

opinion you do of Hizbollah. Still wouldn't make them illegitimate. Like it or not they are a legitimate group with political representation in another county that is not Israel.

[cali]

16. Of course it would make them

illegitimate, as in violating the law.

[bloom]

23. As in how the US is violating international law... and Israel

None are them are law abiding.

I see the whole argument as who can demonize who the most.

I think it's pretty simple to see who has caused the most deaths.

[nadinbrzezinski]

When shall we start? Assyria? Egypt, perchance Greece

or maybe stick to the history of the Crusades? By the by, it is because of the crusades that International Humanitarian Law started to take form.

By the way, when it comes to inflicting death, when should we start with Katusha's? the period of 1967-73, maybe the 1980s? Perchance the 1990s, what about 2000-2006?

I mean asymmetrical warfare is quite nasty... and its damage is not a two week period, but cumulative.

Here is the point, the cycle has to be broken on BOTH SIDES. Nobody is innocent here, or a hero.

[Skidmore]

32. So what does a discussion of whether or not a political faction is

legitimate have to do with what you have just posted. I agree that no one is innocent in this conflict. However, one party does not have to be declared illegitimate for a conflict to be resolved. I think Israel needs to just come out and admit that it is at war with Lebanon, which has a political party called Hizbollah. Asymmetrical, my tush. To fight this political party, a nation is being destroyed. Israel is fighting another nation. Rovian political BS is like kudzu in the world.

[nadinbrzezinski]

Perez said it well the other day

that tis was the forth Israeli- Lebanese War and that they were making the same mistakes. that said... like ir ot not, hisbollah has engaged in asymmetrical warfare for many years. They are not the first in the ME to use it and I suspect they will not be the last either... hell it is an ancient tactic used every time you face an opponent with better weapons and tactics, whether you are a fighter in Judea in the year 70, getting your ass kicked by the Romans, or today's Hisbollah. Now part of the problem is that Hisbollah makes the case for Israel at times, especially when the Signora government has not gone to bat for its own people and mobilized the Lebanese army, partly because that is an internal police force that cannot face Hisbollah, and disarm them, let alone the IDF. Which is part of the problem...

Now if you want to believe that asymmetrical warfare is Rovian spin, more power to you. But it is real and it exists and has existed from time immemorial.

By the way, I'd better put the disclaimer here, for soem believe being as dispasionate as possible with the facts and being able to see both sides is defending Israel. I am not defending Israel, and I am looking at this from the lense of International Law.

[Skidmore]

46. The whole idea of asymmetrical warfare is an excuse for

nations to take out each other without actually declaring war between states. It is a cyncial manipulation of law and peoples by all participating. I don't think it would hurt to go back and revisit many of the treaties that have been in place since WWII and the Cold War.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. As I said, if you want to believe it is an excuse

so be it, but as a tactic, for it IS a tactic, it has been employed since time immemorial

[Skidmore]

49. Please note that this war has been called a "proxy war" for a

reason. The state actors are using Israel and Lebanon to get at each other without having to fire a shot.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Not unlike the Cold war

that said, I suspect that the proxy war charges are more out of convenience quite frankly...

[Skidmore]

52. Rovian spin?

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Rules for legitimacy (and why it is so hard for new

groups to be born or nations to come to be)

Under international law, national actors have to be recognized by OTHER national actors... ny by this definition the GOP is not recognized as a national actor, not under international law

Resistance movements have to be recognized aa legally recognized combatants by national actors, that have legitimacy given by other national actors. Usually for this to happen you need them to promise to abide by minimum standards (such at the Geneva conventions which incidentally the Sandinistas did).

Hisbollah has truly not been recognized by national actors. In fact, though they are supported economically by Iran and Syria (yes, yes they are) none of these two states has recognized them as a legal combatant. The reasons are plenty, but they have not. So they don't have that legitimacy.

Now, they can and have achieved a certain level of legitimacy on the ground, due to their social services. Yet, now they are at a point where they will have to choose... armed struggle or political actors inside their nation.

Sorry, just going over what it means to be a legitimate actor in the world stage.

[Skidmore]

26. I would argue that the US and the global community gave them legitimacy

when the results of the Lebanese election was accepted as legitimate.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. As a poltical party not a rseistance

movwement, the distinction is very fine but there.

For a comparison we have had soem members of our militias elected to office... but they are not seen as legitimate state actors.

[Skidmore]

37. I would argue that any group in the world that has a viewpoint is

legitimate. Governments may like to pick and choose groups, but ideas are legitimate and do not die easily. That is why these types of groups come back time and time again. You can kill people, but not ideas and you can't police peoples' minds yet. You need to negotiate and find common ground, not try to eliminate a group.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Before anybody gets to any negotiating it has to be

so painful that people see no way out... this is not an exception to this.

Hisbolla's goals from what they have stated (leadership that is) is to drive Israel to the sea. These were also the goals of Nasser and Of Jordan. Funny, both Egypt and Jordan are at peace... once it is painful enough for BOTH SIDES they will go there. I hope.

As to getting recogmition, it has its baanies

[Skidmore]

48. So what hare Israel's goals. Is it painful enough for them yet?

Is that the implication here?

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Israel's goals short term are to stop

missiles from landing behind the green line and killing and injuring their civilians... long term, whether they like it or not, they will have to break the cycle... but giving up territory willingly will no longer be on the table as a unilateral action. Thank other actors (Hamas and Hisbollah) for taking this away from the Doves.

[Igel]

54. If they used their position in government

to provide cover for their private militia, if their private militia espoused goals at odds with national policy and took action based on those goals, and if they insisted at the risk of bringing down the government that their private, religion-based militia not only not be disarmed, but be prouded paraded as "the resistance" ...

Then they'd be completely illegitimate and should be disbanded, their officers pitched into prison. Period.

Esp. if the GOP militia was backed--funded, trained, and armed--by two countries, one of which had claims to properly be in charge of US territory and had recently occupied the US, and the other of which wanted their religion to dominate.

Hezb lacks even the cover that Sinn Fein/IRA managed to produce, or the whiff of separation between politics and militia that Hamas has been trying to hoodwink people with.

[Selatius]

14. Sinn Fein is a viable comparison, no?

If Great Britain refused to talk to the IRA, would there still likely be bombing campaigns in London?

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Sin fein is partly where they are right now

but Sin Fein had a clear division between the military arm, (IRA) with which at times not even Sin Feinn talked to, and their political arm.

[Laotra]

27. GOP and DLC

Are occupying Iraq, have levelled Fallujah, engaged in illegal kidnappings and torture etc, generally committing war crimes. Didn't you know?

[jonnyblitz]

31. they may not do the deed themselves but if any of those groups

you mention support a war they enable the military to do similar to our "enemy". :shrug:

[Mir]

12. That's a good point

The GOP - in its current form - is quite possibly the most disgraceful and evil organization of human beings on the face of the earth. But are they not "legitimate?" Hizbullah is a political organization that has 3 cabinet members and 19% of the parliament of a nation and has an approval rating of about 80% of said nation that crosses sectarian lines of Shi'ites, Sunnis, Druze and Christians. To hate them, what they stand for and what they do is one thing, but to say that they are "illegitimate" is just flat out ridiculous.

[IA_Seth]

18. Thanks for the sanity!

I have been so frustrated of late with the overwhelming generalizations and the quickness with which people are jumping to conclusions.

If I say Hezbollah is a legitimate political organization, it doesn't mean I agree with their tactics, have sworn fealty to their party, or have bake sales to raise money to pay for their martyrs. No, I mean what I say..that Hezbollah is a legitimate political faction. They have been elected to office in a freakin democracy for cryin out loud!

On top of that, if I disagree with Israel's tactics, or if I disagree with some zionist's view of a perfect middle east, that doesn't mean I want to see the Jewish faith destroyed, or that I have anything against the Israeli people. Give me a break, I don't agree with the Republicans here in the US either, does that make me anti-American? That's republican BS.

It's time for people to chill the hell out and listen to what is said, not to what they want to hear.

[burythehatchet]

10. The reason why some are incredulous is because they have

been looking at this issue in black and white. The tactic of terrorism, as it is commonly referred to today, is essentially a case of people who have legitimate grievances, while lacking the representatino sufficient to address those grievances.

There is a reason why the Lebanese are so supportive of Hezb since the invasion. They feel that its the only group fighting for them. If your position is 100% disengagement with people who have wronged you, you will never find peace. Jimmy Carter understood that and knew that active engagement was the only way to understanding. The terrorist label gets bigger and bigger. Why do you suppose that is?

[cali]

15. Of course.

I didn't say they weren't supported in Lebanon, or that that support wasn't understandable, or that H'zbollah couldn't grow into a legitimate organization, or that parts of H'zbollah didn't carry out legitimate activities. I just noted that it's pretty funny that so many DUers put them in the same category as the ICRC,WHO and AI.

[jonnyblitz]

28. exactly.

:thumbsup:

[Laotra]

19. Duh

See here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1786681

[cali]

24. Yeah, I saw it. Even funnier.

If the Socialists Workers didn't always speak in that peculiar and dated form of newspeak they use, I might take them more seriously.

[Laotra]

35. Dated Newspeak?

What do you exactly refer to? That a (post-)trotskyite party occationally uses Marxist terminology, or what?

[oc2002]

20. Maybe because Israel is acting like a terrorist state.

Hezbolla does not look so bad, and it was democraticly elected.

[jonnyblitz]

29. I can understand why the Lebanese support them. nt

[jonnyblitz]

33. did it every occur to you, since people vote anonymously,

that they might pick the option that they KNOW will piss off their "opponents" of the issue to get a rise out of them like they got out of YOU? I know I do it :shrug:

[cali]

36. sure.

but it didn't get a rise out of me; I find it truly amusing. As EM Forester so trenchantly said: "Only hypocrites can't forgive hypocrisy."

[jonnyblitz]

38. umm..you started a thread on it. I would most certainly it got

a rise out of you. I don't mean to imply you are an opponent because i know your stance..just saying..

[cali]

41. Jonny,

I find the claim that you can read a person's mind, a poor habit to cultivate. And I'm not in the habit of being shy about revealing how I feel. You'll either have to accept that I mean what I say, or not. Doesn't make much difference to me.

[Lurking Dem]

40. Oh those dastardly Israel supporters!

What will they think of next?

[confludemocrat]

34. I hear alot about Hezbolla as "terrorist". Honestly, what'd they do?

that makes them a terrorist organization which they are called here so often and the premise here is that it is a foregone conclusion that many here "support" Hezbollah. I know they have the support of about 80% of Lebanese, have anti-poverty programs, began by confronting Israel, are armed, and are highly religious, have they ever carried out a black september or al qaeda-type "operation"?

[Laotra]

39. There are

accusations that Hizbollah or groups close to it have sometimes used terrorist tactics, most notably the bombing of a Jewish community center in Argentine. AFAIK the evidence remains inconclusive. Of course, the definition of terrorism is also pretty vague.

[cali]

45. The Argentinan bombings

are widely credited to H'zbollah and there is considerable evidence to back it up. There's plenty of information out there. And I would think that blowing up a Jewish Community Center in Argentina would qualify as terrorism, period. Nothing vague about that.

[Laotra]

55. No disagreement

I've seen evidence on DU, considered the source (Mossad) and agree it is strong. But not conclusive.

[cali]

56. No, not the mossad

Evidence collected by the Argentinian authorities and other non-Israel affilliated bodies.

[Laotra]

62. The evidence I've seen

was behind link to a site created by ex-mossad agents. Not objective enough by my standards, which does not mean there wouldn't be more credible sources available. Dunno.

[confludemocrat]

68. OK, so pretty typically this just is an echo chamber-ginned-up thing

Thought so, as these alleged acts mentioned here are not even mentioned when Hezbollah is discussed on TV, and seem few as well as being highly debatable. We are just supposed to buy the line. The figure I read was 87% support by Lebanese for Hezbollah's resistance to Israel, across all sectarian lines.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. This comes from all the missiles launched into Israel

and the calls to drive all Jews to the sea... as to 80% support, I doubt it... 80% of the population is NOT shia and poor... This war may open the gates of a second civil war in Lebanon.

[Laotra]

57. Corrections

-Only 60-52% percent of Lebanese population are not Shia (only educated guesses available, since the last census is from 1934).

-80% or more currently supporting Hezbollah seems very plausible, and informed observers seem to agree that practically all of Lebanon has now united behind Hezbollah.

[Lurking Dem]

53. Terrorist acts

They bombed a US embassy. They killed 247 Marines in their barracks. They blew up a Jewish center in Argentina killing 29 people. They hijacked a TWA plane. They kidnapped and tortured to death U.S. Marine Colonel William R. Higgins. And William Francis Buckley. Terry Anderson. About 30 other people.

They were the innovators of suicide bombing.

I'm sure there's more.

[Laotra]

60. Corrections

Killing Marines, a military target, (in response to US navy bombardment of southern Beirut, obvious war crime) is not a terrorist act by any objective definition I have come by, and neither is suicide bombing per se.

Blowing up a Jewish center is of course a prototypical terrorist act.


Whether Hizbollah is responsible for any and all of those acts, is disputed.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. Israel's gone and legitimized them.

They may have once been terrorists. Now they're guilty of being militia men defending their homeland.

[NNN0LHI]

59. Over 30 people on an anonymous chat board?

Whats your point cali?

I am not trying to sound like a smart ass.

I am serious.

Don

[cali]

64. I simply think,

that in light of the many statements of disavowal for support of H'zbollah, the poll results are pretty funny; particularly as the OP compared H'zbollah to organizations that virtually wear little golden halos. Of course, I realize that some people may be voting that way out of a sense of the absurd, or to piss off others, but the whole thing just struck me as humerous.

[NNN0LHI]

66. Thats cool. And thank you for taking the time to answer me n/t

[Marie26]

61. It's the classic

"the enemy of my enemy is my friend." This kind of dualistic thinking happens all the time on DU. Ahmadinejad hates Bush, therefore he must be a good guy. Hezbollah hates Israel, therefore they must be a legitimate organization. Any article critical of a Dem must be fake propaganda & any critical of a Republican is taken as gospel. It's lame & lazy. It seems like people can't grasp the concept of gray sometimes. It's black & white, Manichaean thinking, just like Bush uses.

[breakaleg]

63. Hezbollah has changed and evolved over the years just as everything does

What they were when they started out, is not what they are today.

Even on CNN, when introducing Hezbollah, they always qualify the introduction by saying they are believed to be a terrorist organization by the US and Israel. They are NOT considered a terrorist organization world wide.

[Jack Rabbit]

65. What's hysterical about it?

Hezbollah holds 14 seats in the Lebanese Parliament.

Hezbollah is a legitimate organization. So is the American Enterprise Institute. So were the Nazis.

Calling Hezbollah legitimate isn't the same as calling them beneficial to humanity.

[cali]

67. As I said upstream, er, upthread

it's the whole thing: comparison to saintly organizations such as the WHO and AI, the many disavowals of support here at DU. It just struck me as funny as hell.

[otherlander]

69. Maybe "as legitimate as AI" doesn't mean much to some people.

Sure, they're a great organization, but it seems to me that some people who claim to be progressive only find them useful insofar as they defy the Bush administration, and are then ready to ignore their reports and go off chanting, "Viva Fidel!"