Hummers better than Hybrids?! HELP!!

[Coexist]

This bullshit article was published in my beloved St. Pete Times Perspective section today. HUGE Hummer photo above it with the title:

Have You Hugged a Hummer Today?

under it. I am trying to get some facts together - I need your help for a LTTE please! Anyone know where I can get some facts to debunk this?

Thanks so much!

[salin]

1. heh - go to Consumer Reports annual car review

read the section that refers to the 'top satisfaction' ... owner's with the highest level of satisfaction: PRIUS. Next highest... Corvette. Square that with this statement from the article:

Spinella's customer satisfaction surveys show that 62 percent of hybrid owners are dissatisfied with the fuel-economy performance of their cars given what they have paid for them.

Frankly, my fuel economy has shot up. I recently put in under 5 gallons to fill my tank - after having driven nearly 300 miles. Disatisfied? Hah! Now take the next part of this statement.

Says hybrid owners - given the cost of the car... (unhappy with fuel savings). Er... lets talk about the comparitive costs - the Prius is half the cost (or thereabouts) of the Hummer. So the implication of comparing Prius owners to Hummer owners... or that Prius owners ought to trade in (not the gist of the article, but sorta implied in the title and subtitle) - rather ABSURD.

[patrice]

3. What does the price of gas contribute to their dis-satisfaction?

Would the less-than-impressive hybrid mileage be more acceptable if gas weren't $3.00 a gallon.

[salin]

9. depends on the car - I would hardly call nearly 60 mpg "less than

impressive". Really depends on the type of hybrid. For example, the suv hybrid's don't get great mileage - except when compared to other suvs.

Yes, gas prices probably have an effect.

However gas prices had been in that range when CU did their annual car review - and in their studies - the car with the absolute highest owner satisfaction was: Prius. Followed by Corvette. Again, perhaps it varies with which hybrid is owned?

[Coexist]

5. Thanks- I also found this:

http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/orgfactsheet.php?id=63

FACTSHEET: Reason Foundation, Reason
<snip>
Reason has an associated environment website (www.newenvironmentalism.org) which promotes conservative environmental policies. The page links to articles on websites for organizations such as CEI, the Heartland Institute and Tech Central Station. It also has a section praising the environmental stewardship of corporations such as ExxonMobil. Reason's Magazine also badmouths the environmental movement and promotes the interests of Reason's corporate contributers. Several authors of Reason's "Roadmap to Reform" were appointed by CA Gov. Schwarzenegger to his budget working group and transition team. Reason's second President, Lynn Scarlett, is now Assistant Secretary for Policy and Management at the US Department of the Interior under Secretary Gale Norton. Reason Foundation is also a member of the State Policy Network. According to the 1999 Reason Foundation Annual Report, top funders include: C. Boyden Gray and David Koch (each individually contributed $25,000 or more in 1999), the Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation, the JM Foundation, Charles G. Koch Foundation, Lilly Endowmet, Scaife Family Foundation, Sarah Scaife Foundation, Smith Richardson Foundation, and the Sunmark Foundation. Corporate Donors in 1999 included: American Farm Bureau Federation, American Forest and Paper Association, American Petroleum Institute, American Plastics Council, ARCO Foundation, BP Amoco, CA Building Industry Association, Chemical Manufacturers Association, Chevron Corporation, Chlorine Chemistry Council, Clorox, Coca-Cola, American and Continental Airlines, Daimler Chrysler Corp, Dow Chemical, Eastman Chemical, Edison Electric Institute, ENRON, Exxon Mobil, FMC Corporation, Ford Motor Company, General Motors, Kimberly-Clark, Koch Industries, Koch Materials, Eli Lilly, Microsoft, National Air Transportation Association, National Beer Wholesalers, National Soft Drink Association, Pfizer, Inc, Philip Morris, Procter and Gamble, Shell Oil, Sun America, Union Carbide Corporation, United Airlines, Western States Petroleum, Watson Land Company, Whole Foods Market, Winston and Strawn.

Big Oil seems to love the Reason Foundation

[lectrobyte]

15. I own a Prius, I'm delighted with the fuel economy. I see 54 MPG

driving the car fairly agressively, with the AC on 72 in Raleigh NC, home of hot & humid. In the Sping and Fall, the mileage goes up a bit over that. Winter seems to hurt a little, lower 50's, I think the engine has to run more to warm up etc.

[zbdent]

21. I wonder how many of the Hummer drivers got satisfaction

from the tax rebate they got because it was "for work purposes"???

[skids]

2. Have you seen the latest hummer TV ad?

Woman is at a playground with her kid, waiting in line for the slide. Another woman with her kid cuts in front of them. She's say "we were first" other woman says "now we are first." Woman runs frantically to a dealer and buys a hummer.

I don't know if confirming what we already know about the infantile psychology of hummer owners is a good advertising tactic. :eyes:

[tsuki]

4. Have you seen the "regain your manhood" Hummer commercial? eoq

[skids]

14. Heard about it but haven't caught it yet. n/t

[baldguy]

19. The only idea that ad reinforces for me

Is that Hummer drivers are insecure about their sexuality.

edit for small penis link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL4ZkYPLN38&search=hummer%20ad

[patrice]

6. What about pollution?

A Hummer doesn't help


By Eric Amster




Eric Amster is a University of California, Davis, medical student and environmental-health advocate



In September, General Motors announced its "Hummer Helps” program. The program has donated $100,000 (the cost of an H1) to Tread Lightly, an organization whose credo is to “respect the environment and rights of others” while promoting off-road travel “with minimal impact.” With the increasing popularity of Hummers in Sacramento, it’s time we ask some questions: To what extent do Hummers respect the rights of others? Do they “tread lightly”?

The most condemning evidence against Hummers, and sport-utility vehicles (SUVs) in general, is the associated health consequences. This year, the Journal of Respiratory Medicine reported that adults showed worsening of respiratory problems in communities with more car traffic and fewer fuel-efficient cars. Because of their small size and growing bodies, children are more vulnerable. A study of fourth-graders showed increased rates of wheezing and asthma in areas with fewer fuel-efficient cars. This means that if your neighbor is driving a Hummer--the most inefficient vehicle, at 11 miles per gallon--your child is more likely to get asthma.

According to the American Lung Association, Sacramento has the sixth-worst air quality in the United States, and 91 percent of our air pollution comes from mobile sources: cars and trucks. Hummers are three times heavier than most cars and use more than 200 percent more gas per mile. Quite simply, our air is growing ever worse because some people want to drive ever bigger cars.

Our government has created air-pollution standards that limit the amount of pollution from car emissions and set standards for fuel efficiency. However, Hummers and SUVs are allowed to emit 5.5 times the level of pollution allowed for other cars. According to the legislation, Hummers and SUVs are rural vehicles, exempt from the tighter rules.

Some individuals have taken radical approaches to dealing with the Hummer invasion, but there’s a better way. Educate! Tell your neighbors that you don’t want your kid getting asthma because they want a Hummer to go shopping. Inform your friends that they’ll end up spending three times more on gas for a Hummer. Tell them Sacramento has some of the worst air in the country, and it’s worsening further because of the big cars people drive. Ask why they need a Hummer at all. Chances are, it’s not for rural uses.

[Coexist]

8. Okay - author of "Dust-toDust" study podcast - what do you think?

http://www.thewattpodcast.com/podcast/dust-to-dust.mp3

This was the study quoted in the article.

[Coexist]

10. Here is a link to the Dust to Dust study - 459 pages - ouch.

http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/

[givemebackmycountry]

11. Hate the commercial, LOVE the song that's played...

I'm looking for it to, so if you know the artist let me know.

Something about "cleaned the dishes, made the dinner, biscuits on the pot, water in a cup... this little girls gonna rock"

Love that song.

But then again, I love all songs about strong women.
Especially the ones that rock.

[kittenpants]

17. The song is This Little Girl's Gone Rockin' by Ruth Brown n/t

[kittenpants]

16. yeah, I thought that was pretty funny... but only b/c it makes fun

of Hummer owners' insecurities... I'm not sure how effective it is in hitting it's target audience!

[Buzz Clik]

7. It would be interesting to see what you can find, However,

I can give you some interesting first-hand info:

1. Yesterday, my father-in-law came to pick up our youngest for a week visit. During the three-hour drive, his Prius averaged 53 mpg at 75 mph. When drops his speed down to 65, he adds another 3 to 4 mpg. I don't know where the author of the magazine comes up with this: "Spinella's customer satisfaction surveys show that 62 percent of hybrid owners are dissatisfied with the fuel-economy performance of their cars given what they have paid for them," but my father-in-law is thrilled with his.

2. The local Toyota dealer is one of the biggest in Indiana, and he cannot keep a Prius on the lot. He has demos and nothing more. If you want one, you must order one and wait.

3. "The dust-to-dust energy cost of the bunny-sized Honda Civic hybrid is $3.238 per mile. This is quite a bit more than the $1.949 per mile that the elephantine Hummer costs." This makes no sense. The Hummer (I'm assuming he means the H1, the original) has a list price of over $100,000, weighs 10,000 lbs, and (as I recall) gets about 7 mpg. Compare that to the Prius: 2800 lbs and list price of $21,000. No way the H1 out performs the Prius on energy. However, I suspect this manipulative idiot is referring to the H3, a mere shadow of the original. Debating his numbers will be difficult (and meaningless).

[eyesroll]

12. 1. It's Reason. Take it with a grain of salt, regardless of what "it" is.

2. Although I don't have links to data, I can see that their argument is based on two premises: Imported cars require more energy than their domestic counterparts because of the transport factor. And, hybrids are specialized vehicles, so their parts aren't commoditized yet, thus consuming more per-unit energy to manufacture and maintain.

Well...if hybrids were made in this country, that would negate the transport cost (which kills their "I'm glad Ford didn't make hybrids" argument).
And if there were 10 million hybrids on the road, their parts would be common and easy to manufacture in bulk. It would cease to be a "specialized" product, and development energy costs would indeed be divided over many more vehicles.

As for the steel vs. specialized lightweight composites...does the extra cost of manufacturing the lightweight materials completely wipe out the energy (gas) saved by driving a lighter vehicle? Regardless of whether the EPA mileage claims are accurate, a Hummer gets a lot less per mile than a Prius.

[lectrobyte]

13. CNW is bullshit. Basically, they are making a lot of bogus assumptions,

such as a Prius will only last for 100,000 miles, and the Hummer will last for 300,000. Prius taxis have gone for 200,000 miles with no battery replacements. I'm convinced this is part of someone's disinfo campaign against hybrids.

[tandot]

18. Always look who is behind these foundations:

http://www.publicintegrity.org/oil/report.aspx?aid=347

Koch's Low Profile Belies Political Power
Private oil company does both business and politics with the shades drawn

"Koch Industries (pronounced "coke") is a huge oil conglomerate controlled by brothers Charles and David Koch, two of the country's richest men and among the biggest backers of conservative and libertarian causes. With estimated revenue of about $40 billion last year, Koch is bigger than Microsoft, Merrill Lynch and AT&T.

...

Although it is both a top campaign contributor and spends millions on direct lobbying, Koch's chief political influence tool is a web of interconnected, right-wing think tanks and advocacy groups funded by foundations controlled and supported by the two Koch brothers.

Among those groups are some of the country's most prominent conservative and libertarian voices including the Cato Institute, the Reason Foundation, Citizens for a Sound Economy and the Federalist Society. All regularly beat the drum in official Washington for the causes the Koch's hold dear—minimal government, deregulation, and free market economics."


(emphasis added by me)


Of course, they'll say that the Hummer is the best thing since sliced bread. They make their money with oil.

[kittenpants]

20. Shikha Dalmia (the author) is an analyst for The Reason Foundation...

they seem to be a free market, conservative group judging by a quick look at their site: http://www.reason.org/

edit: previous poster beat me to it!

[flvegan]

22. 300,000 miles out of a Hummer?

Why am I not thinking so. They obviously didn't "dust to dust" all the replacement parts the avg GM vehicle will need over that questionable amount of time as opposed to the Toyota or Civic in their questionably short amount of time.

I call bullshit.

[Skidmore]

23. With or without armor?

[omega minimo]

24. "Hummer" Google ads on DU here & on "Hummer" thread yesterday

:evilfrown:

[jmowreader]

25. I've figured it out, and this really is bullshit

The whole thing is predicated on something called "dust-to-dust energy costs." This includes every little bit of energy needed to take the car from "rough idea in someone's head" to "grinding up the worn-out car, melting the ground-up parts, and sending the molten materials to a reseller."

A Hummer H2 does well on the pre-production dust-to-dust costs because they've been making the car, in some form or other, since 1934--when Chevrolet released the Carry-All Suburban. They've been making the small-block Chevy engine that's in the Hummer since God knows when, and they've only made enough of them so that every man, woman and child on the North American continent could have one. The Turbo Hydra-Matic TH400 transmission they use in the H2 has existed longer than you have. The ONLY thing about a Hummer that took any development whatsoever is the body...and these days they do that on computer.

Now for the Prius. This doesn't look good...most of the parts in the Prius will ONLY fit in a hybrid, and many of them will only fit in a Prius.

Plus, as someone pointed out, Toyota's hybrid-auto final assembly plant is in Japan. Then again...when you ship by sea, you pay by volume and not weight, and any hybrid car is smaller than a Hummer.

I don't really like this "dust-to-dust energy cost" metric because it's bullshit. Any thinking consumer knows it takes more energy to make a 6000-pound car than it does to make a 1900-pound car. It takes more raw materials. It costs more to ship the raw materials. It costs more to make the machinery to build these cars, because the machinery must be sturdier. It takes more paint, and paint is a petrochemical. It takes more power to compress the air to spray the paint. It takes more of everything.

Some days I figure the RW sits around trying to out-stupid themselves.

[Coexist]

26. Very interesting - thank you.

I am still wary about the 100,000 vs. 300,000. I can't find anything on Consumer Reports (or anywhere else) to back this up.

[tandot]

27. The Prius WARRANTY for the battery is 8 years or 100,000 miles

http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/warranty/warranty.html

Every Toyota Car, Truck and SUV is built to exceptional standards. And that's not idle boasting. We back it up with these Limited Warranty Coverages:
Basic: 36 months/36,000 miles (all components other than normal wear and maintenance items).

Hybrid-Related Component Coverage: Prius' hybrid-related components, including the HV battery, battery control module, hybrid control module and inverter with converter, are covered for 8 years/100,000 miles. The HV battery may have longer coverage under emissions warranty. Refer to applicable Owner's Warranty Information booklet for details.

Hummer
http://www.is-it-a-lemon.com/make/hummer/index.htm

Auto Factory Warranty:
Basic Warranty

H1

GM will back up your H1 purchase with a basic 3 year/36,000 mile warranty and a special 3 year/36,000 mile warranty specifically to protect the H1's drivetrain.

In addition, the H1's aluminum body is warranted against rust-through corrosion for 6 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first.

_________________________________

I find it quite misleading that they quote the basic warranty for a Prius battery, while omitting the basic warranty for a Hummer. Where did they get the information that a Hummer lasts 300,000 miles? How do they know that a Prius battery wouldn't last that long? Just because the warranty is for a certain amount of time/miles, doesn't mean that at exactly 100,000 miles, the battery dies. What is more expensive, recycling a 6 ton hummer or a battery?

[jmowreader]

28. I think I figured out the 100k v. 300k thing

A Hummer can go 300,000 miles easily, even though once you get past the "tactical" hoo-ah hoo-ah look, it's just a Chevrolet. :evilgrin: (Hey Skinner! Where's that :ducking: smilie?) The thing is made from heavy-duty off-road truck parts, and the people who have them very rarely load them down or take them off-road. Heavy-duty stuff in light-duty service has a very long life because it's derated.

So we'll live with a 300,000-mile lifespan for the Hummer.

The 100,000-mile lifespan for the hybrids is a little more problematic. This is the warranty on the main battery pack. For purposes of discussion we'll assume you can't replace a dropped cell in one of these batteries--although if you can't that has GOT to be the stupidest design ever created. (Hybrid cars use industrial batteries. You can replace cells in industrial batteries because Industrial Batteries Are Expensive As Fuck.) There are two little flies in the ointment for the theory that the car will just evaporate the second the clock rolls over to 100k--the two biggest manufacturers of hybrid vehicles. GM has a hybrid (the 1500-series Silverado pickup is available as a hybrid) and Ford has one (the Escape), but most hybrids are made by either Honda or Toyota. The only way that either a Honda or a Toyota is going to be dead at 100,000 miles is if you do an instant 60-0 deceleration maneuver against the back of a semi. Hondas and Toyotas last a very long time--the old joke is that a Honda isn't broken in yet if it doesn't have 200,000 miles on it. I can easily see getting 300,000 miles out of any hybrid on the road today--yes, even the battery pack SHOULD last that long.

I think the whole article's bullshit, but it's fun to engage brain sometimes and pick out the essential bovine fecal matter at hand.