Israeli Justice Minister: IDF Entitled to Kill Everyone in South Lebanon

[bigtree]

Thursday, July 27th, 2006

From the BBC today: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5219360.stm

Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon “said that in order to prevent casualties among Israeli soldiers battling Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon, villages should be flattened by the Israeli air force before ground troops moved in.

He added that Israel had given the civilians of southern Lebanon ample time to quit the area and therefore anyone still remaining there could be considered a Hezbollah supporter. “All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah,” Mr Ramon said.


Title and premise from: http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2006/07/27/israeli-justice-minister-idf-entitled-to-kill-everyone-in-south-lebanon/

[Marie26]

1. Israel is playing

by Hama rules now.

[theHandpuppet]

16. Sounds more like lessons learned in Fallujah

Tactics-wise that is. We apparently have learned nothing from the shame of Iraq. Look how well a scorched earth policy worked there.

[Marie26]

They are the same rules. nt

[leveymg]

98. Sounds liked lessons learned in Poland:

This city is looking more and more



like that city:

[PA Democrat]

42. For anyone who may be unaware of what Marie26 is referring,

google "massacre Hama Syria".

[smacky44]

45. Then how can anyone doubt that the bombing of UNIFIL was intentional?

[Marie26]

55. I don't. nt

[burythehatchet]

46. Does that please you?

[Marie26]

53. What an asshole thing to say. nt

[bigtree]

57. baiting?

what about Israel's declaration that civilians in Southern Lebanon are Hizbollah, presumably to be targeted for destruction along with the combatants in an increased offensive?

We can't judge them in an international court because they aren't party to the most prominent one, but these intentions (and actions) are defined as illegal under the laws that we regularly expect other countries to adhere to.

Does that please you?

[Wonk]

2. Paging DU's resident Likudniks to try and justify this.

You know who you are. Will you dare show yourselves in this thread?

[Lerkfish]

37. apparently, this is too hard to spin

This is Dresden. This is Fallujah. This is the utter depravity of unbridled aggressions.

[Swamp Rat]

90. !

[stepnw1f]

3. Is This Genocide?

Wiping out a populous indiscriminately?

[malaise]

9. Yes it is genocide

but who is planning to stop them.

[stepnw1f]

13. I Certainly Would if I Could

Looks like I have write a bit this evening.

[Marie26]

24. Probably not

If you want to get technical about it. But it is a crime against humanity if they do this.

[stepnw1f]

26. I Want to Be Sure I Am Accurate if I Say Such Things

Thanks for your response. What one does to another will eventually come back to them.... in this case: violence. I wish all would understand this.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

32. No.

By that logic, the firebombing of Dressden was genocide. Not every war crime is genocide.

[lumpy]

75. Two wrongs don't make a right.

The firebombing of Dresden was wrong and there have been many regrets over that action. Some of us like to hope that lessons are learned from horrible acts. The leaders of this country and Israels' certainly haven't followed the humane path.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

84. I wasn't suggesting that they do.

We were discussing the definition of genocide, and I was pointing out that not all wanton destruction can be defined as genocide. I was not attempting to weigh these two actions on the scale of morality. They're both abhorrent.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. Please correct me if I am wrong,

but didn't Israel bomb bridges, roads, and the airport when they started this incursion? How can people get out, especially when they've seen their neighbors killed in the act of fleeing?

[Mandate My Ass]

7. Well I guess that's their problem to figure out

especially since they've been labelled terrorists already. They'll be murdered and the justification will be that they were retreating Hezbollah militants. Sheesh.

[bigtree]

10. very good point

convoys fleeing were hit, many killed fleeing

[mom cat]

48. You are absolutely right! This slaughter must stop!

[samhsarah]

66. Those were the terrorist bridges....

And the terrorist roads, and the terrorist airport, and those neighbors......terrorists too. Even the kids. They had the terrorist gene. Now there are a separate set of roads, bridges, and a separate airport for non-terrorists to use if they wish to leave. But Israel cannot disclose where those places are. It is a matter of national security.

[lumpy]

78. Yes they have bombed escape routes.

Anyone unable to flee to safety will suffer the consequences for their stubborness. (sarcasm of course) The filthy representative from Israel has declared that anyone remaining will be declared members of Hezbollah or at least related. Judge, jury and executioner.
It has been proved over and over again that corrupt leaders have been willing to bulldoze steamroll or bomb anyone who gets in the way.

[bigtree]

5. another account

July 27, 2006 4:15 AM

LAURIE COPANS, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM (AP) - Israel must unleash massive air strikes against villages in southern Lebanon to clear out Hezbollah gunmen, the justice minister said Thursday . . .

Asked whether entire villages should be flattened, he said: ''These places are not villages. They are military bases in which Hezbollah people are hiding and from which they are operating.''

However, it is believed that civilians remain in these communities. A Red Cross doctor who visited the town of Bint Jbail before the Israelis advanced on it this week said the majority of residents had fled, but a considerable number were taking cover in schools and other places.

http://www.newspress.com/Top/Article/article.jsp?Section=WORLD&ID=564776985533219789

[samhsarah]

67. Holy shit.

And how much time do they have left until they get "flattened"? Well good thing we rushed them the bunker-busters. Wouldn't want the terrorists to be able to take cover in schools or anything. This is sick beyond anything I can even comprehend anymore.

[lumpy]

The old, infirm and helpless without

any support group or means of fleeing will be executed.

[malaise]

6. Bush, Condi and Bolton agree

these are just birth pangs.:sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[CuteNFuzzy]

47. not just Bush, Condi and Bolton

Dems too

[malaise]

60. That makes it really frightening

doesn't it.
sp.

[snappyturtle]

8. This is insane......

how do we (U.S.) support this? Boy, the word terrorist morphs into any ideology these days. Just maybe the people left in southern Lebanon CAN'T get out. These are not rich people. How many own cars? Is gasoline available? The roads have been bombed out of existence. This edict is nuts!

I can just hear the news media purporting that the dead civilians were warned and chose not to comply.....yada,yada,yada.

[rodeodance]

17. as the world watches-and leaders give their tacit approval.

[Karmadillo]

11. Is this the moment when Leading Democrats speak out against

the violence being inflicted upon Lebanon?

Probably not.

[SidDithers]

12. Including those darn pesky UN observers...

they're fair game too.

Sid

[LSK]

14. let me get this straight, Israel bombs all the roads and bridges

And then expects everyone could have made it out???

:wtf:

[ananda]

23. Not only that..

.. but it's also hard to get food and relief in.

[LSK]

30. and the trucks that do get in are bombed

[QuestionAll...]

15. this is beyond horrific

for this to be said out loud bluntly just goes to show how unbridled and viscious these acts are.

And who is going to do what about it? They have a blank check.
what a miserable world.

[originalpckelly]

18. Hezbollah is a terrorist group; Israel is a terrorist state.

I think that is a good assessment of the situation.

[Little Star]

19. How will our media and government justify this?

It is going to be a hard sell around the world I think. So much loss of innocent life..................:cry:

[Bluerthanblue]

20. "Entitled" by whom???

He claims 'the world' was in Rome yesterday- well, I know quite a few people who couldn't make it-


And the spin that everyone left in the area is 'related' to Hezbollah- on that he's technically correct
a one can be 'related' by being a victim of someone.

The leadership of Israel may fool themselves, may fool some leaders, and may fool many people- but in the end, they will all prove to be fools-

and scoundrels.

So sad, so very sad, for everyone involved- which includes the entire world.


Days like this, make me wish for an asteroid that is headed dead on to earth, to stop this mess once and for all-

[muriel_volestrangler]

44. The US vetoed the call for an immediate ceasefire

and the UK gave it lukewarm support. Everyone else wanted the ceasefire. But Israel calls the US "the world", it seems. Time for the real world to reject the US and UK, it seems to me, so that it can speak for itself.

[Bluerthanblue]

64. egocentric as we are, we are NOT 'the world'-

and we may 'try' and control every one and every thing, but the headlines all over this globe speak to our failure- our pathetic, colossal failure.

If Israel sees 'us' as the world, they are in deep sneakers- just like us.-

The breaking point has been reached- the last straws are being laid-
And the fall is coming.


And I don't know what any of us can do about it!!!!

[BillZBubb]

21. Israel has become a terrorist state.

This guy is just airing what a majority of the Israeli's feel. They'll quickly try to deny what he said for PR reasons, but the truth is out there.

[originalpckelly]

22. I know...

I just cannot believe they were so blunt. They just don't give a fuck.

[Norquist Nemesis]

28. Started as one.

For example: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,173-2277717,00.html

[originalpckelly]

33. I am glad you found a link to this. Thanks...

Israel started as a terrorist state.

[Marie26]

35. We celebrate

a "terrorist" action against the British too - the American Revolution. Does that make America a terrorist state?

[Norquist Nemesis]

38. Birds of a feather. Whatever.

:eyes:

[Marie26]

39. I have no idea

what that response is supposed to mean. America is a terrorist nation? How about the Latin American countries that celebrate revolts against the Spanish - are they also terrorist states?

[Norquist Nemesis]

40. It means I'm not going to get into a tit for tat with you. n/t

[Marie26]

41. So, you've got no reply.

OK then.

[originalpckelly]

50. When did we engage in terrorism? Please do explain.

The Sons of Liberty burned a few buildings down, they didn't bomb them. They dumped tea into a harbor. There is a difference between destruction of property and terrorist acts which target civilian populations.

[Marie26]

52. Pot-ay-to, pot-a-to

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The Sons of Liberty engaged in typical "guerilla warfare" tactics. I'm not saying any of this is right - just saying that if you're going to condemn Israel as a "terrorist state" based on the actions of some militants, you'll probably have to condemn a whole lot of other countries too.

[originalpckelly]

56. No, the Sons of Liberty engaged in destruction of property...

There is a profound difference between destroying life and property, don't you think so?

[Marie26]

58. Perhaps

But the Revolutionaries did destroy life once they started fighting British troops & they were basically considered "terrorists" by the British government. We were an insurgency. I'm basically just disagreeing w/your contention that Israel "started out" as a terrorist state. Many Arab militants also used violence against the British during the occupation - does that make every Arab nation a "terrorist state"? I condemn Israel totally for what they're doing now, but IMO it's not really fair to make that kind of sweeping statement about Israel's founding.

[LostinVA]

109. It was much more of a popular uprising against a Colonial gov't

Than an insurgency, partisans, etc. And, the Continentals fought a very, very conventional war, not a guerrilla war... although there was guerrilla on both sides in small amounts. The British Army was just as -- if not more -- trained in such tactics as the Americans were.

Just being pedantic. This is a misconception alot of people learned in school: the American was a true colonial revolution, and the war was won thanks to the conventional warfare tactics of the Continental Army, not the militias (and, a Pyrrhic victory by the Brits at Guilford Courthouse which lead directly to the surrender at Yorktown).

[lumpy]

82. The army of the Revelution didn't

flatten villages and towns killing innocents. That was a war fought with guns on the battlefield, no bombs dropped from on high and nasty chemical weapons.

[lumpy]

81. They have been working on it for some

time. Practice makes perfect. Where else did Bushco get the idea for 'perfect' war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[rman]

25. Self-ascribed entitlement is worthless

There's only one reason why the Israeli state gets away with this, and it has nothing to do with being entitled.

[EVDebs]

27. Israel needs a 20 mile 'no man's land' surrounding it ....

so no rockets can be sent over. Either that or a 'security bubble' dome like in those futuristic sci-fi novels from the '50s.

[originalpckelly]

29. Did you read the article?

:shrug:

[BillZBubb]

34. WTF???? You don't think rockets can go beyond 20 miles?

There is no "no man's land" big enough. Israel would have to take over all the Middle East and that wouldn't be enough.

What Israel needs is to make peace with it's neighbors and treat the Palestinians with dignity and fairness. Israel needs to obey UN 242 and begin to make amends for the evil it has done trying to hold onto Palestinian land since 1967.

[EVDebs]

72. Precisely. And the 10 victims per Israeli body count matches

Gen. Giap's and Ho Chi Mihn's calculations in Vietnam, that they would sustain a ten to one body count and still keep fighting.

[truth2power]

36. That just conveniently includes the Litani River. Hmm.. n/t

[w4rma]

31. Genocide. Killing all arabs. (nt)

[BelgianMadCow]

43. Katrina flashback here

this is just like NOT giving people medical aid & water, but patrolling the streets in armored cars to control "riots" and afterwards declaring those stranded were unwilling to obey evacuation orders, after a levee is breached that the USArmy Corps of Engineers was screaming about for years wouldn't hold.

Only in a much more brutal way.

This is another "you're either with or against us" moment.

I have no idea what the Israeli government agenda is, but I do not see how it can be any good.
Anyone who thinks this is justified retribution should consider bending their gaze away from the abyss.

Let us not forget however, that the current US agenda as spread by the likes of Bolton is not so nice either, and nevertheless there are some pretty nice Duers.

[progressivebydesign]

69. I was just about to write the same thing.. a creepy parallel. n/t

[warrens]

49. All I can think is that the Palestinians have infiltrated the IDF

If they were deliberately trying to turn the entire world against Israel, they couldn't be doing a better job.

[originalpckelly]

51. ^^^Excellent point.^^^

This is going to hurt the US and Israel. It should. We have done something wrong.

[oberliner]

54. two criticisms of this post

1. The post topic is a lie.

The Israeli Justice Minister did not say that the IDF is entitled to kill everyone in South Lebanon.

Framing the statement that way is manipulative and unfair. Just because a libertarian website decided to make that leap doesn't make it so.

2. The post cherry picks two paragraphs from an article.

Omitted is the fact the remarks were presented in the context of an announcement that Israel is not going to launch a large-scale ground offensive.

"Israel Opts Not to Expand Operation in South Lebanon"

The above was the headline used in the Washington Post with respect to the same events of the BBC article.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/27/AR2006072700714.html?nav=rss_world/asia

[bigtree]

63. That will be the result of the continued offensive

that HAS been the result so far of their offensive in the south. It's clear that the Israelis, highlighted by the official's statements, do not distinguish between innocent civilians and those who can reliably be identified as Hizbollah combatants. I understand the difficulties of identifying the enemy in battle, but these statements make clear that there is to be no distinction between civilians and the Hizbollah combatants they are firing upon.

You faied to include the section of the article where they say they are CONTINUING the airstrikes and the manuevers they have been exercising so far. Talk about cherry-picking

Again, the results of those offensives, the incredibly high number of civilians slaughtered in the face of Israel's reprisals, speak for themselves as to the intentions and effects of the continued offensive, That coupled with the callous regard to the civilians who the Red Cross has verified are left in Southern Lebanon and the Israeli blockage of any exit for these civilians, amounts to a blatent disregard for the lives of those innocents caught in the way of their 'defense' and reprisals.

BTW, I DON'T NEED ANY 'LIBERTARIAN' WEBSITE TO POINT OUT THE ISRAELI OFFICIAL'S WORDS AND INTERPRET THEM FOR ME. I happened upon this in the article where an Israeli official proclaimed that "the world gave Israel permission" to continue their war.

[oberliner]

65. fair enough

I would argue that the statement does not "make clear" that there is no distinction between civilians and the Hizbollah combatants they are firing upon.

Another interpretation would be that the civilians are no longer in the area and all that remain are Hizbollah members and people who actively and consciosuly provide them with support.

The PM of Lebanon himself has claimed that there have been over 500,000 people who have been displaced as a result of having to flee their homes to avoid this conflict.

I do think it's fair to argue that this Israeli official is wrong in his assesment of who is actually left in the part of South Lebanon in which Israel and Hizbollah are currently fighting,

You are right that I did cherry-pick one particular part of the article in my reply. It was meant only to claim that one could reframe that article in a variety of different ways based on using one or two selections from it as representative of the whole.

The result of Israel's offensive DO speak for themselves. I completely agree that Israel has been absolutely disgraceful in failing to do enough to protect civilians. They have attacked Hezbollah in civilian areas and innocent people have died as a result and that is deplorable.

The disagreement that I have is in the assertion that Israel is deliberately targetting civilians and killing them on purpose for no reason whatsoever.

I only brought up the website because it was listed at the bottom of the post as being where the "title and premise" came from. I should not have implied that you need a libertarian website to point out the things you mentioned. I apologize for that.

[lumpy]

85. Well what does this mean?

Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon “said that in order to prevent casualties among Israeli soldiers battling Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon, villages should be flattened by the Israeli air force before ground troops moved in.

He added that Israel had given the civilians of southern Lebanon ample time to quit the area and therefore anyone still remaining there could be considered a Hezbollah supporter. “All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah,” Mr Ramon said.

Explain away.. How do they determine that any remaining people are the enemy before they flatten the territory.

[truth2power]

59. I've called Sen Clinton's office

every day for the past few days, offering my regrets for having to call so often. But what with a new atrocity every day...

Anyway, today I referenced Mr. Ramon's statement about flattening the villages. I was assured that the senator still supports Israel.

If we get hillary shoved down our throats in '08, as we probably will, I will NEVER vote for her. Y'all can do as you see fit. Don't bother telling me about how we should support the Dems. blech! :puke:

First they came for the Arab PEOPLE....

[progressivebydesign]

68. Hillary can kiss my ass.

I've decided, finally, that I will not support Hillary in any way.. and I will not support ANY of our democrats who are turning a blind eye to the killing in Lebanon, and Israel. U.S. COULD have stepped in and brokered a cease fire until things were sorted out, but they didn't. They're SOOO afraid of losing the Jewish vote (their words, not mine), and lobby money, that they are allowing the slaughter of innocents.

Hillary... I will vote against you, or stay home. I am a Democrat, I'm an American, but I'm also a human. I always come down on the side of the humans... not the money.

[originalpckelly]

76. I call them AIPAC Democrats...

they are worried about being called anti-Semitic and therefore side with people in the far right Likud party. Sickening...

[samhsarah]

71. Hear Hear!!!

And I have never been any type of "purist". I have made excuses for all kinds of stupid shit that certain Dems including Hillary have done. Support of mass slaughter against a civilian population has GOT to be where I draw the line. Enough is fucking enough already.

[SammyBlue]

80. You're going to quote an Holocaust survivors words about Jews in Israel???

I'm done! I'm done with DU and all of you!

You just called Jews Nazis! HAL TURNER DOES THE EXACT SAME THING!!!!

[Bretttido]

86. What the heck are you talking about?

[Karenina]

87. Get your FACTS STRAIGHT.

The self-righteous indignation and outrage ain't woikin no mo'.

"Corrupted forms of the famous saying by Martin Niemoeller are being widely circulated. Why? And why are essentially new sayings invented and circulated, falsely claiming the authority of the famous Christian opponent of the Nazis?

First, who was Martin Niemoeller? Niemoeller was one of the most respected Protestant leaders in Germany. After a signal career as a young man, a decorated U-Boat captain in the First World War, he became an activated Christian. In 1933, when he became the most high profile of Hitler's Christian opponents, he was in charge of a prestigious suburban parish in Berlin-Dahlem.

Niemoeller was a leader in the mobilization of the Pastors' Emergency League, in the Synod that denounced the abuses of the dictatorship in the famous "Six Articles of Barmen," and in other visible joint actions and sermons that finally led to his arrest on 1 July 1937. There were then a few honest judges still functioning in Germany, and when the court let him go with a slap on the wrist Hitler personally ordered his incarceration. Niemoeller was in concentration camp, including long periods of solitary confinement, until the end of the war.

After the war, active in international church affairs, he made preaching trips across the United States. At that time he brought the message of concern for others, often driving the point home with a confession of his own blindness when the Nazi regime rounded up the communists, socialists, trade unionists, and, finally, the Jews. The quotation is now famous, but often in corrupted form.

In a recent bulletin of the Social Studies School Service, a 23" by 161/2" poster is advertised for $4.95. It begins, "First they came for the Jews...." A beautiful new folder from Yad Vashem, featuring "The World Center for Teaching the SHOAH," has the Niemoeller statement on page 2 as the banner opening; it uses the same corrupted form. An educational video on skinheads and other racist extremists, produced by Jansen Associates, jumbles the sequence of Niemoeller's warning and adds "then they came for the Roman Catholics, and I didn't protest...." In other freely invented materials, we read "Then they came for the gays, and I didn't protest...."

The latter corruption of the text was never seen by Niemoller: he died before homosexual exhibitionism became a public spectacle. But when we asked him years ago about the addition of the Roman Catholics, he said, "I never said it. They can take care of themselves." (Not particularly friendly, perhaps, remembered today in the modern climate of Catholic/Protestant rapprochement; but the report has the virtue of telling the truth.) When asked about the re-arranged order, "First they came for the Jews...," he simply laughed and passed it off.

There is a more than pedantic point to insisting that the Niemoeller quotation be truthfully used, if at all. Through the texts corrupted to promote special interests, literally millions of school children and also adults are being taught lies about the Holocaust. The damage is not as serious, perhaps, as the steady infiltration of "Holocaust revision" (i.e., denial). But it does help to create an atmosphere of playing fast and loose with the facts through intellectually dishonest and self-serving manipulation of the text.

Niemoeller knew the sequence of Nazi assault, because he was there. Any average student of the third Reich should be able to give the record accurately; it is a shocking display of professional incompetence when materials that are supposed to be vetted by specialists can be issued that are simply contrary to the record. Even if a corrupt text appears in print, whether published by an ignoramus or a special pleasure, the literate reader should catch the mistake.

As Martin Niemoeller gave the message, it was true to the facts. "They" didn't "come for the Catholics" any more than "they" came for the Protestants. The true historical sequence, which Niemoeller of course followed, was communists, socialists, trade unionists, and Jews. The assault on the Jews was the culmination of the Nazi dictatorship's ruthless elimination of targeted communities and individuals.

Martin Niemoeller's message, in its true form, carries a powerful moral impact. Telling the story and drawing the lessees of the SHOAH are weakened, not strengthened, when carelessness or self-indulgence permits a corrupted text to be widely disseminated. The true sequence, which culminates the Nazi genocide of the Jews, is both literally and morally stronger than the corrupt forms that are becoming now widespread:

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

http://www.christianethicstoday.com/Issue/009/First%20They%20Came%20for%20the%20Jews%20By%20Franklin%20H%20Littell_009_29_.htm

[Swamp Rat]

89. Danke liebling!

Leute gehen hier geisteskrank. :crazy:

[Karenina]

99. Meine ficken Fresse, Swamperkins!

Die ganze Welt ist AUSGEFICKENFLIPPT! Gibt's NICHT zu sagen! :shrug:

[Nothing Without Hope]

105. thank you very much for this. I knew the popular form was corrupted

but not the whole story like this. Bookmarking.

[lumpy]

88. Uh nevermind

x

[Behind the Aegis]

91. That is their weapon against us.

We should be used to it by now. It is the same bullshit they spew about anything Israeli. Face it Sammy, some people here are nothing more than bigots when it comes to Israel.

[MsMagnificent]

100. Yes, bullshit alright...

Bigoted against a country? To be more precise: against a certain administration's actions in running a State?!

That's bigotry?

Could you be any more disingenuous?

[Behind the Aegis]

101. Could you be any more disingenuous?

I am guessing not, since you seem to not disapprove of the new tactics.

[MsMagnificent]

108. What

are you talking about?

With the double negative, I guess you're trying to say that 'I approve of the new tactics'
The only question is: WHAT 'new' tactic(s) are you referring to? :puzzled:

And what exactly is disingenuous about my comment?
Bigotry, by definition, can NOT be about disapproving of a government's actions! Not unless you'd like to arbitrarily add an entire new, fallacious, category to 'Bigotry'; one which, btw, would then include every single poster on DU

Every. Single. One.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mikelgb]

62. oh of course they are

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

70. Oh boy! Free fire zones! Kill 'em all! :"Smoke 'em out!"

"Bring 'em on!"

I wonder if the Justice Minister remembers a town in Czechoslovakia name Lidice, or countless other towns all over Europe razed by the Germans and the inhabitants slaughtered in their "defense" against partisans.

[originalpckelly]

77. I guess you don't know about Deir Yassin:

Deir Yassin, also Dayr Yasin, was an Arab village that was captured by Israel during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. It is most known for the massacre that took place there, as a result of which the village was de-populated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin

There were a few Israeli villages which this happened to, but the Israelis killed many Arab villages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_1948_Arab-Israeli_war

[bigtree]

73. Finnish: Strikes "targeting everyone else except the Hezbollah"

"Austria and Finland, both of which lost citizens in the attack, also condemned the bombing, with Finnish Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja calling it "truly tragic." The fourth victim was Canadian.

"These so-called `precision attacks' seem to be mainly targeting everyone else except the Hezbollah," Tuomioja said. "The longer this continues, the more likely it is that there will be more similar victims."

http://www.abqtrib.com/albq/nw_world/article/0,2564,ALBQ_19864_4874149,00.html

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

74. Short jump from here to use of a nuke

If absolutely EVERYONE in an entire region is eligible to be mass exterminated, how far can we be from the use of a small nuclear weapon? It's more efficient, after all.

[shadowknows69]

79. "Everyone whohasn't left Iran in 24 hours"

Will be assumed to be a Hezbollah supporter. Cue the mushroom clouds.

[Ms. Clio]

83. well, why not?

I quote:

"I lump Arabs/Muslims/Hamas/Hezbollah/PLO together?? Well, if you can tell the difference between an Arab shopkeeper yesterday and a member of Hezbollah/Hamas today then more power to you and I applaud your ability. :applause: Kindly forgive me though because I have no such abilities. :shrug:"

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

92. Sounds like ethnic cleansing to me.

[CuteNFuzzy]

95. It's only ethnic cleansing when those we don't like are doing it

In this case it's just "counter-terrorism" and "self-defense"

[entanglement]

93. Sickening, but the Israeli-supremacists will cheer this

Their thirst for blood is unquenchable.

[Leopolds Ghost]

94. I posted an even more explicit quote by Foreign Minister & it was locked.

The Israeli Foreign Minister said a week ago that everyone they're killing is a terrorist "or terrorist sympathizers" & is a legitimate target.

I'm not allowed to post the link, apparently (I tried reposting it to ask why it was locked, and that thread, too, was locked.) You'll just have to look it up on NYT (front page article from last week.)

Seems like America (and DU) is rife with Dems so conservative, they would be considered Likudniks, if they lived in Israel.

Ironic since they would not find their religious beliefs tolerated in Israel.

(Israel has a state-sponsored religion, it does NOT recognize Reform Judaism -- it recognizes Islam but not Reform Judaism -- and most Christians in Israel are West Bank Arabs who are severely repressed).

[Nothing Without Hope]

104. Typical, unfortunately. Would you please PM me the link?

Since the quote printed in the New York Times is not allowed to be seen at Democratic Underground?

[Warren DeMontague]

96. Oy Vey. nt

[mogster]

97. This is their Rubicon

Will they dare to pass? Will Israel take the bait and enter the 'War on terror' publicly by indiscriminately destroying a neighbouring Muslim society while the world is watching? This isn't 1982, nor is it 1996. It's NWO - wether we like it or not - and I fear this may forever change Israel, and also the way we regard the country.

I heard on the radio today that southern Lebanon is not 'quit' of people, there are people that rather face out whatever is coming than fleeing on the roads, where cars also are bombed by Israel. People stay, because they don't know better or miscalculate the consequences, or are just too poor, tired or uninformed to get their act on the road - remember New Orleans.

The UN org UNRWA runs Palestinian refugee camps in the south of Lebanon - what will happen to the Palestinians there?

Here's an excerpt from an article published October 24. 2005 in Aftenposten (my translation). The topic is the Palestinians living in Lebanon, fearing to be left in the lurch after the 'Cedar revolution'. Interview objects lives in the camps of Mar Elias (1,411 refugees) and Shatila (12,235 refugees). They're further north than the zone appointed for destruction:

"We are very worried. Nobody can tell what will happen, not even the people taking desicions, says Kassem Sabbah, who we met at the Norwegian Peoples Aid rehab center for Palestinians in the little camp Mar Elias.

He came here as a patient after a wound in a shootout in 1984. Today he's leading the centre and may study the development of a Palestinian society that in many ways stand still. The young, with education, with initiative and energy, gets out. The remaining are the old and weak.

Today, 23 years after the massacre, Shatila is the most vulnerable and most depressive of the Palestinian camps in Lebanon. The sewer floats in the narrow alleys. Electrical wiring hangs loose. The poverty is very apparent. The future is limited.



- One of these days, one of our students came and said he wanted to take an ordinary job instead of studying, says Jamila Shehadeh. She's the leader of an organization who takes care of children without parents, and children from homes where parents are in trouble - all the way from kindergarten to university education.

- The boy is bright and apt. He could have done well, she says. But even with higher education, the Palestinians can't get other than ordinary jobs. Most job opportunities are closed to them, even though the govt. has softened the rules lately."
http://www.aftenposten.no/fakta/innsikt/article1141853.ece

These are ordinary people, not terrorists.

There are two camps close to the border, Rashidieh (25,580) and Burj el-Shemali (18,659).



:rant:
The ghost of Sharon hovers over this conflict; hastily concieved, un-necessary brutal to the point of absurdity and not very likely to actually DO something about the terror attacks against Israel. Sharon in a nutshell.
The spirit of Bush is the high protector of this conflict; it's duration are undefined ("My goal is to end this as quickly as possible,"), it's end scenario is undefined ("and at the same time secure a lasting peace,") and, finally, he uses his own definition of a democratic term ("not a 'false' peace") never used before. Like the new definition of 'democracy' and 'freedom' we're seeing in Iraq. Not to mention the USA.
So, what's a 'false' peace? I tell you, this guy is so full of piss his eyes should be yellow. There's no thing like a false peace, honestly. You may have 'weapons on hold', 'cease fire' or 'occational hostilities', but you never had anything called false peace.
Peace means no one gets killed, and the spirit of Rove hovers over this undemocratic choice of lingo that seems to water out everything democracy stands for.

Mr. Bush, the unfriendly people up north wants to know why we're gonna trust you THIS time around? :shrug:
You didn't stop 911, you screwed up Iraq and Afghanistan, you can't fucking talk, think or even be around normal people without making an ass of yourself.
So this 'scheme' of letting Israel loose on Lebanon will succeed and bring a lasting peace?
Sure.
Go away, Bush. If your secretary allows you to use the Internet without supervision, and you by accident click your way into this thread and happen to read this very personal thought of a Norwegian citizen: Everybody hates you. We, the Americans, the world, everybody. You have fucked up what we love most - freedom. Your inner circle diminishes, and everybody there hates you too, they only pretend to like you because you're prez. They never loved you anyway, they're fucking parasites.
Something tells me you wont be prez for long, and then all that hate will focus on you. You, George. So go away, find yourself a rogue state without legal ties to the USA, Norway or any other freedomloving country. Because if we get to you, you will have to answer for this, just like any other dictator in history have bitten the grass when facing the slow work of law and justice.

[Nothing Without Hope]

103. Well said. It's hideous being an American watching this happen

But nothing is as hideous as enduring it first-hand.

I believe that a major reason for the brutal attempt to remove people - one way or another - from Southern Lebanon is the plan to grab the water resources there. See what you think of the info my post, next in this thread.

[Nothing Without Hope]

102. Destroy the southern villages, remove the consumers of the ***WATER***

that Israel has demanded. Major springs about 3 miles on the Lebanese side of the border have been the subject of demands and threats from Israel for years; I predict that one Israel's planned outcomes of this preemptive war against Lebanon will be an arrangement that allows Israel to grab this water from the southern areas it has attacked. Read the following brief description from the New York Times and see if you feel chills down your neck too:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9905E4D7103BF93BA35753C1A9649C8B63

World Briefing | Middle East: Lebanon: Water Dispute With Israel

Published: October 8, 2002

Senior officials from the United States Embassy in Beirut met Prime Minister Rafik al-Hariri to try to defuse a dispute with Israel over Lebanon's plans to use water both countries say they need. Israel has said it takes a ''grave view'' of Lebanon's plan to pipe water to southern villages from the Wazzani Springs, three miles north of the Israeli border. The springs feed the Hasbani River, a tributary of the Jordan River, which is a major source of Israel's fresh water. Lebanon says that it is within its rights under international law and that it plans to open a pumping station soon.

DU threads on the significance in this war of Israel's desire for Lebanese water:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1696420
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1698430

Book on how those who seize water resources are set to become the new Big Oil:
http://www.buzzflash.com/store/reviews/276

[mogster]

111. Good info, NWH

Sorry for my late reply :-)

This war has so many underlying interests.

[Scurrilous]

106. Haim Ramon and sexual harassment:

Police: Sufficient evidence to indict justice minister

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3282906,00.html

Officials say they have enough evidence to serve indictment against Ramon for sexually harassing government employee

<snip>

"The Police said Friday they believe there is sufficient evidence to indict Justice Minister Haim Ramon for sexually harassing a government employee.

The attorney general, Menachem Mazuz, spoke with Ramon on Thursday and told him that as long as the investigation in his affair continues he will have to refrain from dealing with several of the issue under his jurisdiction.

The complaint against Ramon was published this week, after the Tel Aviv District Court revoked the publication ban on the affair. The young woman who filed the complaint against Ramon does not work in his Ministry, and has up until recently been employed in other governmental offices."

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sensitivity]

110. Quite like the Aparteid Regime in South Africa --hearding into bantustans

for easier control or elimination if necessary.
The venom of supremacy gushes in torrents.

[Poll_Blind]

112. Fugging insanity. n/t

PB