Correct me if I'm wrong about Russell Yates!

[CTyankee]

I just saw him on the Today Show, calmly talking about his former wife, Andrea, and how supportive he is of her.

Wasn't this guy responsible for her descent into psychosis, by continuing to father children with her when her psychiatrist said she was already suffering from postpartum psychosis and giving birth again would worsen her condition?

My spouse says I am being unfair to him. But didn't he have a responsibility NOT to get her pregnant again and to take better care of her? And now he's gotten himself remarried and he's chatting with Matt Lauer on The Today Show?

Wow.

[npincus]

1. Life goes on, doesn't it? (sarcasm)

I don't know how the hell he can disassociate himself from his 'role' in the deaths of his children.

[Cooley Hurd]

2. Rusty seems to be pretty self-absorbed, that's for sure...

Had he been attentive to his wife's deepening health crisis, his kids might still be alive today.

[babylonsister]

3. I live in Houston down the road from Clear Lake, and I agree w/you.

This guy is guiltier than she is imo, and now he appears to be capitalizing on all the grief.
I have absolutely no respect for the dude.

[acmejack]

19. Class A major low life.

If there is an afterlife, Russell will pay, he is the guiltier of the two IMHO.

[MichiganVote]

4. Amen to that. He had a responsibility to zip it up and keep it up.

[MoonRiver]

32. Or, more importantly, cover it up. eom

[MichiganVote]

45. :)

[LostinVA]

5. I would say you're 100% right

[durrrty libby]

6. He's a despicable human being n/t

[hlthe2b]

7. I agree with you... I have always believe in his culpability...

He used a bastardized form of religion to control her, ignored her post-partum depression and increasing mental illness, while continuing to demand more and more of her. She was his "servant" and property. I think he is absolute slime.

[KharmaTrain]

8. Blind Leading The Blind

Russell Yates looks like he's, like his ex, lived a very sheltered life...one where you didn't ask questions and where faith conquers all, including your own humanity and common sense.

I've heard his talk a couple times and this guy strikes me as being clueless as to what her condition was and even now can't disconnect his religious beliefs from the scientific ones that come into play here. Face it, how many of us...especially male...had any idea of what Post Pardum Depression was about before this case...I remember it being called "the blues"...something new moms get but they get over it. Surely Russell Yates heard the same thing...if that much...added to the pressures to have a large family.

I'm almost willing to bet these people had very little sex education...and then there's that disconnect many men have between their actions and what could be the end result. While he might have known that getting her pregnant could trigger depression, that societal pressure of "being a man" and the religious pressures of raising a big "happy" family suppressed knowledge, emotion and communications.

This is such a sad case and I don't see how you judge "guilt" here. I've been long convinced Andrea snapped due to being in a restrictive society...one that leads brides with bulding eyes to run away or another mother to back her car, with her kids in the back seat, into a lake. It's more an indictment on a society and messed-up mindset than it is about any one person.

[CTyankee]

13. Post Partum depression is different from PP Psychosis, as I

understand it. PP Psychosis is very rare but extremely serious. I had a coworker who had it. She heard a voice inher head telling her to kill her baby. She checked into Yale New Haven Hospital and they got her into the Psych ward and out of reach of her baby in no time. She cannot have another child. She is an extremely bright, creative woman, a graduate of Yale Divinity School. She is also a mainline Episcopalian. So I think PP psychosis can affect anyone, not just the religiously insane. Having said that, the religiously insane only made matters worse by ignoring Andrea's real problem. My coworker's religion was not such that it overrode her judgment and she was able to avert tragedy.

[KharmaTrain]

27. Look At The Difference in Cultures

That's the best way I can explain it...and how this situation should have gone. But here we're talking about the Northeast where mental illness isn't viewed as a "problem" but as a real illness and that its not "wrong" to ask for help.

Sadly, in the Yates situation, I see both parties who lived in ignorant bliss to what was destroying all these lives. The societal conditions in a Texas isn't as forgiving about personal failures...especially mental illness. It's viewed as a "weakness"...just like a football injury...you play through it or ignore it.

Fortunately your friend was able to recognize her problem and found the proper care. Sadly this nation still gives lip service to mental illness and...especially in heavily religious areas...any treatment is considered being "weak"...nothing that a good doseage of the bible can't cure.

Peace...

[CTyankee]

50. I'm a native Texan, now a proud CT Yankee

I know whereof you speak. Altho in Dallas, where I was born and raised, I know some intelligent and decent people who are not religiously insane. Even the more religious ones, if they are better educated, can be reasoned with.

[Bridget Burke]

55. Then--why did a Texas jury finally make the right decision?

I live in Houston, too. And I've never played football.

[jedicord]

16. I never understood post partum depression ... until I got it.

There I was, with the beautiful baby boy for whom I had waited 9 long months. But instead of sitting by the bay window in a beautiful white gown holding him, I was crying my eyes out, with an extremely heavy feeling of impending doom.

Lucky for me it only lasted a couple of weeks, left as fast as it came. Lucky for my son I wasn't a religious zealot with a controlling husband leaving me with 5 kids all day in that condition.

[lisby]

22. My experience, too.

Only mine never cleared up. Until I took antidepressants. So screw anyone who says they don't help.

Lisby

[jedicord]

26. Amen, sister. And welcome to DU! n/t

[Norquist Nemesis]

33. Same here

It was terrible to feel the enormous emotional swings and not have any control over them. It took me about three or four weeks before they were back under control.

[China_cat]

17. According to Andrea's doctor

they were BOTH told of the dangers of this condition and the fact that having another baby would most likely worsen it. After the FIRST child was born.

And after the last one, she was not supposed to be left alone with the kids...at all...due to the risk. Guess who walked out and left her there alone with them.

[Bridget Burke]

25. Andrea Yates was an RN before she met Rusty...

She definitely knew where babies came from. But she'd had some mental problems for a while & Rusty was exactly the wrong person to deal with them. She was raised Catholic & Rusty came from a Protestant background. But Rusty's "guru" preached a faith far removed from either belief system.

Rusty has been in love with the camera throughout this whole dreadful period. During this last trial, the judge ordered him to avoid press statements until the verdict. Now he's free to enjoy the attention he craves.

[KharmaTrain]

30. Yes And No...

I agree...the Yates knew the dangers of their situation, and that Rusty's "faith" dominated their lives to the point where it can be said he was a neglectful father...but sadly, I know many other "healthy" families that are in a similar situation. To make ends meet, there are men who will spend 12 hours or more a day at the office or be on the road for days or weeks on an end...and then have a full social calendar on the weekend. Children become more of a drag and annoyance...and an expense...not the cute little critters they were when they were newborn. Incredibibly, I've know several couples whose marriage was in trouble and the thing they tried to do to keep their relationships together was have another baby. But they don't go butchering their children...but the neglect is damaging to all nonetheless.

As far as Yates being a "camera hog"...that's an after-the-fact event. It's not like a Scott Peterson where he was accused of the crime. Before this event happened, I'm sure the closest this guy ever got to a TV camera was the Audio-Video Dept. at Best Buys. Also remember, the corporate media loves to paint things in black & white...and with "advocates" like Nancy "Flaming Nostrils of Justice" Grace out there ready to play judge and jury, we get a storyline that is as much created in the newsrooms of the networks as it is based in reality. They like to make heroes, victims and criminals mode and the media would love to paint him as neglegent here based on his behavior after this incident (that surely had to have affected him) compared to how he was before and how his relationship was with his wife.

I believe the jury ruling was right and this lady now gets the sentence and treatment she needs and deserves. If attention was the criteria on whose guilty or not, then Cato Katlin musta killed Nicole Simpson. LOL.

Cheers...

[Bridget Burke]

39. Perhaps because I live in Houston, I've seen far too much of Rusty....

With the slight smile on his doughy face--so glad that he's getting media attention. Never a hint that something dreadful happened.

I'm glad he divorced her. She'll probably spend the rest of her life in a medical facility, but at least she's not legally tied to him.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

9. Realistically yes, legally no,

But it was doctrine of the fundy church they belonged to; too procreate and populate God's world which trumps any other concern.

[Burma Jones]

10. They were both involved in some oddball fundie church

That's what did it.

The religious right has a lot of these churches that are unaffiliated with a larger denomination so that many are little more than personality cults. It is the triumph of Christian Marketing over spirituality.

[LostinVA]

14. Russel Yates is an educated man -- the Fundie church didn't do it

HE did it. These type of "pastors" do prey on certain people, often uneducated. Yates is far from a stupid man -- but I do believe he is an inherently selfish man... as his actions (and lack thereof) have shown.

[atreides1]

31. "Russel Yates is an educated man"

Just because you're educated doesn't mean you can't be hoodwinked or indoctrinated into a certain mindset. Let's face facts, most of the members of Congress could be considered educated, Condi Rice is educated, Colin Powell is educated.

And yet they somehow slip the bonds of that education, and put faith in personal beliefs, in the cases of Rice and Powell, their faith in Bush surpassed their education.

I'm not saying Yates isn't selfish, his actions show that, but his belief overcame his education, his faith was more important then common sense.

[LostinVA]

41. He wasn't hoodwinked nor indoctrinated -- he embraced it

All of those people you mention DO have the same thing in common with Yates: they are educated and selfish, and embrace things that give them what they want.

He was an educated man.

[atreides1]

74. Just because you're educated

It doesn't make you resistant to indocrtrination, or to being fooled by someone who talks a good game.

[Burma Jones]

56. He's an engineer, barely......

so, while he may be educated, it doesn't mean he had a good education and you can be educated and stupid as hell. My Mom worked with him at NASA, she says he was "weird" and wasn't one of the respected engineers. Of course, she said that after the drownings......

[Ganja Ninja]

11. I've always thought he was partly responsible too.

When your wife is having mental problems why on earth would you keep getting her pregnant? It was totally irresponsible.

[a kennedy]

12. When seeing him on TV during the first trial, I always thought

there was something wrong with him. He gave me the creeps. :scared:

[Virginia Dare]

15. You're not wrong...

excuse my language but that motherfucker should be in jail, not Andrea Yates. He is the one that drove her over the edge from what I understand about the situtation.

About a year ago, I saw something on the news that he remarried, some young blonde in a lavish wedding, white dress, flowers, cake, hundreds of guests, the whole nine yards. She's probably pregnant now too. What a low-life.

:puke:

[tularetom]

18. He's a POS that's for sure

but I don't have a lot of sympathy for her either. She could have got those kids the fuck out of there or at least split herself if she was so upset with the way things were and if I recall she came from a supportive (Catholic IIRC) family. Why didn't she fall back on them for help? In the end I think the jury finally reached the right conclusion. Regardless of all the legalistic arguments I've heard about the definition of insanity like the one offered by the chick on KO last night this woman was friggin insane and should have been committed years ago. Although it's too late to save the kids, she won't be in a position to harm herself or anyone else.

[CTyankee]

51. My point was that Andrea was simply incapable of handling

the situation. That's the definition of insanity. As her husband, he had the moral duty to recognize that and step in and save her and the children. That was his obligation and he failed to fulfill it. Now he's off with his second wife and sounding like he doesn't even think of those kids.

[kestrel91316]

75. The severly delusional among us are famous for NOT seeking any help.

They are in complete denial about their disease, and unless THEY request help voluntarily, there is no way to help them. In the US everybody has the Constitutional right to be crazy as a bedbug, until they actually harm themselves or another.

I know. For over 30 years my mom has been one of them.

[malaise]

20. I would say

he was partly responsible since those kids should have not been home schooled given her known illness. I do not agree with you that he was responsible for making her produce all those kids. We women actually own our bodies and ultimately make decisions about pregnancy.

If she didn't want more children, she should have taken the necessary precautions. Rational women know that most men take no precautions so we look after our own bodies by using some form of birth control.

I think you are being unfair because she may well have wanted a daughter.

[Bridget Burke]

28. Yes, "rational women" use birth control.

Andrea Yates was NOT rational. Are you capable of grasping that fact?

[malaise]

34. That's a valid point

so he could have been more responsible but her doctors should have sat them down, and explained the situation in clear terms and tied off her tubes. They are way more responsible than her husband.

[Bridget Burke]

35. Isn't consent required before sterilization?

The doctors cant just tie off tubes because they think it's a good idea. The couple was TOLD to have no more children.

[LostinVA]

42. Tying tubes was against his beliefs -- he's part of the "quiverfuls"

And, he stated many times he wanted "a baseball team." Yuck yuck.

What a man -- enforcing his will on his already sick wife, with a li9estyle and choices that made her even sicker. The man never upheld his marital vows....

[CTyankee]

52. No, she was incapable of using bc. Rusty should have gotten a vasectomy

and taken care of his wife and kids, making sure they were all safe. I read that Andrea had tried to commit suicide once so she was clearly a threat to herself and to others. Her family should have helped also but it was his primary responsiblity.

[liberalitch]

21. I think that they were part of the christian right shit....

in which you keep pumping 'em out and that is all women are for..... he (or others) may have made her feel that if she wasn't "being fruitful" that she was worthless.

The Neo-cons are notorious for ignoring women's health care needs/concerns

[sutz12]

23. Don't worry, I'm sure he prayed, and Jesus forgave him his sins.

:sarcasm:

[RB TexLa]

24. She had no responsibility in her becoming pregnant over and over?

:shrug:

[Scout1071]

29. As I understand it,

she didn't have much choice. Early on I remember reading that she pleaded not to get pregnant immediately following the birth of one of her children. Seems she suffered from postpartum depression and she knew it, her friends knew it and her husband. But he forced her to become repeatedly pregnant. Seen the pics of those kids? They look like they are pretty much the same age. One right after another, with the depression deepening with each one.

Yes, I hold him equally responsible. One doesn't become psychotic enough overnight to drown their 5 children in the bathtub. Not only did he not help her seek treatment, he continued to get her pregnant knowing she was losing her mind.

[Mad_Dem_X]

38. Exactly

She was gradually getting sicker and sicker with each child, yet he continued to get her pregnant. Yes, he is partly to blame for what happened.

[liberalitch]

40. I am childless by choice, and I am a high school teacher....

Yearly I always have one class that is just "wild", now you know that I love 'em all, but let me tell you I NEED to meditate or drink or something when I get home from school.

Can you imagine having a bunch of kids around you with NO BREAK..... all the time?

Fuckin' A man..... I might become murderous too.

PS.... I teach high school in part because, little kids.... y'all can have that shit. I can at least reason with the big ones.

[LostinVA]

43. No n/t

[kestrel91316]

76. Not if she was psychotic and delusional. The duty was his alone.

[OzarkDem]

109. That's correct

as someone who was mentally ill, she wasn't capable of making those decisions. Like many other mentally ill women, she was easily manipulated by men.

[Marie26]

36. Maybe he was in denial

Maybe he didn't know how to recognize mental illness, or how to cure it. Maybe he was a bad husband. But I'm not going to judge, because we just don't know, and I feel like it sets a dangerous precedent once we start blaming spouses/family members for the actions of a mentally ill person.

[calico1]

37. I remember reading when she was first

arrested and in jail that he was inquiring as to the possibility of conjugal visits. He apparently wanted to impregnate her again! I think he has a lot to do with how she is and what she did. If your wife is suffering from post partum psychosis, having more kids is not the thing to do! Didn't she have this with her next to last child? And they had another one? The man is sick.

[LostinVA]

44. I had forgotten about the conjugal visit request -- ugh

[durrrty libby]

48. I did not know he wanted conjugal visits

Jeezus...what a steaming pile of shit he is.

[nosillies]

46. As someone who has suffered from pretty bad PPD, I can say

that a woman in the throes of this can have a VERY difficult time making rational decisions. And the throes don't last just a few weeks -- they last until you get help, usually. Therefore, it is essential that those around the woman, especially the spouse, assist her in getting better. Rusty Yates, from what I can tell, provided no assistance. In fact, he seems to have done everything wrong, and whether intentionally or unintentionally, he made a bad thing worse. I'm thankful my husband is not such a weak and selfish man.

[EFerrari]

47. It's too easy to beat up on Rusty Yates.

And the facts get lost. Yates didn't force Andrea to have those children and he didn't prevent her from receiving medical care. It looks like he did what most of us do: he trusted the mental health system because they were the trained professionals.

If you throw in the stigma that surrounds mental illness, you have yourself a horror waiting to happen.

Was he responsible for her descent into psychosis? No, her brain did that because she was getting inadequate treatment like most people in her situation. Our mental health care system is DANGEROUS.

Did he try to get proper treatment for her? Yes, he did. As late as a couple of days before the deaths of those kids, Rusty took her to the doctor's and the dumbass doctor SENT HER BACK HOME. He sent them HOME.

Did the doctor tell Yates the consequences of her condition "worsening"? We don't know. It doesn't look like it. Did he say the worsening could be lethal? Probably not. Did he tell them that it could cause a permanent worsening or were they under the impression it was transient? We don't know.

Mental illness isn't what most people think it is. It's not like chicken pox -- you can't always predict what people will do, how they will respond to treatment or how well they will do over time. You have to pay attention, you have to constantly be monitoring and adjusting all the elements that can make the situation better. Most care teams don't do that or they do it only if the family is adamant or they do it without skill. Most care teams don't even work as a team where the social worker talks to the psychiatrist and the therapist and the family rep. In your dreams.

I agree that this poor woman would have done much better had she not had all those kids. The stress of having and caring for those children must have been horrible for her in her condition.

No one took it seriously enough. And in beating up on Rusty Yates, in a way, we don't either. Rusty Yates isn't the problem. The way we handle mental illness is the problem. We don't take it seriously as a society and people are going to get hurt and die because of that.

Watch: A friend comes into the Yates' living room and sees Andrea with an unset broken leg. What is she going to do? She's not going to leave her there, no matter what Rusty thinks, believes or does. She's going to put Andrea in her car or call an ambulance or contact the police or SOMEONE.

A friend did walk into that house and saw Andrea in a psychotic state and she just left her there. Because we don't treat mental illness as if it is real.

Whatever. The man will be in hell the rest of his life no matter how many times he gets married, so wishing him there is sort of redundant. Beating up on Rusty Yates doesn't innoculate any of us from dealing with untreated or mistreated mental illness. And you bet, this is going to happen over and over until we get it. :(

/d->g

[CTyankee]

53. No I blame Rusty. He knew she had pp psychosis and knew

that giving birth again would aggravate her illness and yet he continued to impregnate her. He was wrong, he knew he was wrong, yet he continued to do the wrong thing. That is culpable in my book. Why can't people take personal responsibility for their actions? If she was incapable due to mental illness, then isn't it up to those closest to her to protect her and the children from any harm that might come to them because of the mental illness?

[EFerrari]

54. Psychosis isn't brain death. It is possible to be

compensated and functioning - even very very well -- for periods of time -- until you're not. You are talking about a dynamic situation as if it is a fixed one, for one thing.

I could never figure out why these Rusty Threads set off my alarms. But in this one, *I* finally got it. Whew! I can stop boring everyone now. :silly:

You might consider that this man went against the teachings of his church to try to get treatment for his wife. That's what he knew to do. And the medical community failed that family miserably. As they will the next one.

[CTyankee]

57. I don't think mental illness is "brain death"

I think it is living with a psychosis that can be lethal to either the self or others.

Rusty just moved that along by not doing what he should have done to protect his wife and kids from harm. He was in control if she wasn't and he was the father of the kids so he had the responsibility to care for them. Why is that concept so hard to understand?

I am sorry if I don't get the jist of your post. Let me know what I am not perceiving here

[EFerrari]

58. I understand what you're saying, CT, but I agree with your

spouse. Putting it another way, you seem to be arguing for a kind of stability in this situation ("he was in control if she wasn't") that probably didn't exist or, didn't exist in the way you're positing it.

And then I'm pointing out that in positing so much power and control in Yates, the context -- the community -- is off the hook for the miserable care Andrea got.

Here's another example. One day while I was at work, my husband went into his first really extreme episode. He believed that I was evil in some way and he had to purge the house. He threw out all my personal belongings and went from room to room destroying what he couldn't throw away. Then, he barricaded himself in the house by putting a bookcase up against the door. Oh, he also had my car towed away and my dog impounded.

It was unbelievably awful. CNN was so impressed with the devastation that I recorded that they put the story out ahead of the pope.

Anyway, when I had left for work, I had no idea that he could do that. No idea that he might do it but more than that, no idea that he could do it because nothing like it had ever happened before. He wasn't on anti-psychotic medication at the time, nor did his so called "team" seem to have any concern about the likelihood of such an episode.

Was that my fault? Of the two of us, I was the one who was more in charge of myself. :)

/typos, ack
/husband -->spouse

[H2O Man]

87. He didn't know

his wife was going to kill the kids. She is mentally ill, not mentally retarded. All of the evidence that has been shown that I am aware of show that her delusional thinking allowed her to keep parts of her thinking secret. This is, in fact, not uncommon.

The crime is so terrible that it is natural to want to blame someone. Thus, we have people who blame her, who blame her husband, and/or who blame the treatment teams that provided her services. Were there areas of the husband's behaviors that show a lack of awareness? Yes. But that doesn't equal "guilt" per say.

Did the treating professionals err in any way? Surely they did. But that doesn't mean they are guilty of murdering the children.

The mother killed the children. A jury found her not guilty by reason of insanity for three deaths. There are, I think, reasons that we do best as a society to accept that decision. The prosecutors may charge her with the other two. Or we may see compassion come into play.

[elehhhhna]

61. BLESS YOU FOR THAT POST --

I'm shocked at the lack of compassion and MERCY some (most!) DUers are demonstrating here. I wrote this on another board and wish I'd said it half as well as you ...

"Baloney. Unless you know a few real rocket scientists (which is what Russell is) you probably aren't aware that they tend to be wired differently. They're geeks with Aspergers (within the Autism spectrum) and they're generally socially retarded. Considering the opinions of folks I've met who know & work w/ the man, he falls into this category.

NASA provides the best HC $$$ can buy and it was not enough. Did he (& she) make weirdo decisions about where & how to live? Yes. Was the family afraid she'd kill HERSELF? Yes. It clearly never occured to them (or the shrink who took her OFF antipsychotics when her symptoms abated a bit) that she'd kill the children. If anybody's an accessory to this crime it's their PASTOR...the asshole who advised them to give it all up for Jesus."

[EFerrari]

63. The thing is, unless you're in the soup, it is hard to understand

how dynamic the situation is. How little help you really have and how little useful communication there is among all the players. How you are always going back and forth between the demands of every day and the needs of your partner -- which no matter how much you might want to meet, surprise and even shock you at least a few times a day. And how you hafta keep trying to make the best decisions you can on the fly every day, then day after day after day.

I can understand how Rusty Yates seems like he willfully didn't take care of his wife. That is how it can look from a certain angle to outsiders. It just happens not to be true.

[CTyankee]

68. I can agree with some of what you say but I get hung up on the

repeat pregnancies. In your situation, your husband had a violent outburst seemingly from nowhere (except inside his head). Rusty knew that giving birth would be the proximate cause of a violent outburst in Andrea. You had no such knowledge about what caused your husband's outburst; I am sure you would not have done anything that would be the proximate cause of what he did. Rusty had hard evidence that told him what he should and shouldn't do but he went ahead and caused her outburst by causing her pregnancy and subsequent childbirth.

[EFerrari]

70. That is definitely the crux. I've no interest in apologizing for anyone.

But I notice the issues that came together to make this tragedy possible:

Womens' health issues (sexuality, pregnancy) and mental illness. Issues usually so actively or passively ignored, minimized or avoided out of some misplaced shame, I guess if you wanted to write a recipe for familial disaster, you'd pretty much have to include them.

What did the players' know and when did they know it? How much did the medical people, let alone the couple really know about PPD? How much did they communicate and how well? The last doctor to see Andrea has been caught revising his notes to cover his ass. I have very little trust in his reports.

How well was whatever info passed along processed by the couple, individually or together?

What about the rest of the family?

What about their circle of friends?

We know their pastor was a whack job. The harm he did to someone as fragile as Andrea and someone as socially challenged as Yates - well, how do we calculate that?

Sure. If they'd had no more children after Andrea's first bout, things may have gone better for her for a longer stretch of time. But, we don't know that to a certainty. If she was predisposed to the kind of illness she now has, it might have been triggered anyway.

Aside from just landing on Rusty Yates for not being more proactive, I wonder where was everyone else - did everyone feel impotent to intervene or to help in a useful way. And those questions might be of some value if we're going to stop these tragedies.

We have to learn how to intervene in a safe way and we have to practice doing it. Because we are on our own for the most part when it comes to mental health issues and, more and more, when it comes to good enough care for womens' health issues.

No more dead babies. No more ill moms whose lives will be finally getting real care so they can fully absorb the horror. No more ruined lives for families and friends who will never stop asking, "what could I have done"?

[CTyankee]

77. Thanks for your thoughtful response

It sounds like you have thought deeply on this issue, as well you might, given your circumstance.

We have, in this country, a great concern about "privacy." What you are saying would, to many people, mean an invasion of that privacy. So we end up with tragedies. I don't know how to solve it frankly, but I agree with you that there are no easy answers and enough blame to go around.

I shudder to think what child abuse goes on in some households. I try not to think about it because there is nothing I can do in most instances...

[EFerrari]

80. I know. And after once witnessing a parent beating a small

child on the head with a hairbrush in public, I guess I've decided for myself anyway that there is a difference between privacy and social welfare. Or at least, a very inportant negotiation.

Maybe that's what I mean. I couldn't ever change that hairbush weilding mom. But what I could do is get it to stop at that moment without freaking her out, no matter what I thought of her.

And, then there are steps after that.

The thing is, we have no one else besides us to really turn to. We are the grown ups. (What state entity was looking after that *gorgeous* beaten up kid that day? None.)

I'm a privacy NUT. Don't even call me if you block your number. But, if I see someone in danger, privacy goes right to #2 on my list of priorities. If I'm wrong, I'll apologize.

I've been wrong more than once. :evilgrin:

[CTyankee]

86. oh, god, I don't know.

I have a new view of family violence because of your descriptive post of your husband's mental illness that provoked such violence in your life. Nothing like that has touched my family and I am so humble in gratitude. You are to be commended for how you managed that situation.

I don't know where the answer lies. I wish I did.

[EFerrari]

94. I didn't manage all that well, believe me. But, I did try to learn

because what is the alternative? My husband wasn't just some guy, he was a dear friend of many years. Not someone you'd throw under the bus because they became diabetic, not someone you throw under the bus because their own brain starts to betray them.

It's not an easy thing to take in, not at all. But what I hang onto is, here in this country, we have medical technology of all kinds that never makes it to the people.

If my husband had access to it, our lives would have been different. If the Yates family had better access, their kids might still be alive. This is about getting health care REALLY delivered, not just getting programs sold and to hell with actual consumers.

And, it's also about understanding the whole thing, like we're trying to do right now. :)

[H2O Man]

88. When I was a student

in college, one day one of my teachers didn't show up for class. We didn't think much of it at first. But in the next class, he told a story.

He had been in a shopping plaza. In the parking lot, there was a large man, enraged, beating a small child. There was a group of people watching, but afraid to do anything. My teacher stopped the man. He was arrested and put in the city lock-up, which was why he had missed our class. (In those days, the college faculty were often considered the "enemy" by some.)

I remember him telling us that no matter what the consequences, we shouyld always stick up for children.

[EFerrari]

91. No matter what.

:)

[stanwyck]

85. the point is, he didn't take care of his children

which is the first requirement of a parent: take care of your children.
He didn't. He left for work knowing his children were in the care of a woman barely functioning. His wife had been institutionalized on several occasions and deemed extremely ill by several doctors.
She took several prescriptions and suffered from debilitating depression.
And, yet, he left his five small children in her care.
Yes, he didn't take care of his wife.
And he also didn't take care of his children.
Ask yourself, would this man have hired a woman like Andrea, with her history of extreme mental illness, to care for his children? No. Yet he left his children with her.
That is not being a parent. That is failing, completely, totally, as a father.
Animals do a better job of caring for their young.

[stanwyck]

79. He was the children's father

ask yourself, would a caring, responsible father have hired this woman as a nanny? No. Yet he left for work every day knowing his children were in the care of a severely ill woman who had been institutionalized for depression on several occasions.
That is not a caring father. That is not a responsible father.
Where was Rusty's compassion for his children? Where was his concern for leaving five little kids with a woman who is insane?
His behavior is inexcusable. Parents have responsibilities.
That includes fathers.

[EFerrari]

82. What would you have done, stanwyck?

I agree. He was the father.

In his shoes, what would you have done? :)

[stanwyck]

84. Left the kids with my mother

mother-in-law, sister, brother, neighbor, hired a nanny. I would not have left my children with a person who I would never, ever have hired as a babysitter. Andrea is ill. Extremely ill. She had a long history of mental illness. How is this even a question? Do you leave your children with a person who doctors say is certifiably insane?
No.
You don't.

[EFerrari]

92. Well, the fact is that no one including the doctors where predicting

that Andrea would or could behave as she did.

And, before the deaths of the children, she was not "certifiably insane".

In hindsight, we'd like to have protected them all. But, that is hindsight.

Imho, we'd do better to look around us and see what is going on in our homes, among our family and friends and in our communities. Until we do, this will happen over and over and over. :(

[stanwyck]

95. I've read about the case, and her doctors did

say she was severely depressed. She was prescribed several drugs and her husband was encouraged to keep her condition monitored. Your saying that her doctors didn't predict the deaths of her children is correct. But they were extremely concerned about her mental health.
My point is that a rational father would not leave his children in the care of a woman with so many emotional problems.
Of course the outcome was not predicted by anyone.
But certainly reasonable people would have had concerns. Why didn't the FATHER of these children, to use your words, "look around and see what was going on" in his own home? That was his job as a parent, as a father.
He failed his children and his wife.
And the day after his children were killed, he was smiling for the TV cameras and taking the media on a tour of his home.
The problems in that home were not all the mother's.
Those children didn't have a competent mother OR father.
This is not all hindsight. There were serious alarms which went unheeded.

[EFerrari]

96. Her doctor was so concerned, that two days before the deaths

he withdrew her anti psychotic medications and sent her home with her husband.

That's how concerned her doctor was. :sarcasm:

In the world I live in, mental illness is complicated and people know little or nothing about it. And the day Rusty Yates went to work, he had no reason in the world to believe his wife could do such a thing. The family was clearly concerned, because they tried to arrange for Andrea not to be alone.

That's what a family can do. More than that takes support which the Yates clearly did not have.

[stanwyck]

100. Of course he didn't know exactly

what his wife would do, but do you really think a competent husband would leave his children in the care of a babysitter who he knew had been routinely treated for mental illness? No. You act as though this man had no choices. It was either leave his children with a woman with an illness which greatly diminished her ability to be a caretaker for her children or leave them alone. You don't consider the father's actions negligent?
He could have taken a leave of absence. He could have hired a nanny. He could have implored relatives or neighbors to stay with his wife and children.
You seem to think only Andrea was a parent. And only her actions matter.
These children had two parents. One with a long history of mental illness. What did the other do? Leave his children in the care of a woman diagnosed with mental illness who had been institutionalized several times.
They "tried to arrange for Andrea not to be alone." Yet she was alone. And they were concerned.
Just not concerned enough about those children to go over to the house. Or hire a babysitter. Or call family services. Or even stay home from work.
Support was available. Rusty Yates didn't take it. Didn't insist on it. Didn't care enough to make it happen.
And his actions are not only excused but lauded.
Just not by me.

[EFerrari]

107. You have no idea if he did any of those things.

You have no idea, none.

I hope you never need to try to find this support that you say is available. I truly don't.

[zippy890]

69. thank you sfexpat I agree with you totally

both of them are going to live out their lives in a living hell because their 5 children are dead.

our mental health care system is woefully inadequate, as you describe, and the stigmas attached to mental illness are strong in our society to overcome.

I have family members who have suffered psychotic episodes. It is a horror that I would not wish on my worst enemy, made worse by misdiagnosis, lack of good health insurance and mental health providers.

thanks you so much for speaking out on this very important issue, and trying to get people to understand this problem.

[EFerrari]

71. Hey, zippy890. There is a lot of work to do, we can do so much.

:hug: to you and to your family

[stanwyck]

78. Respectfully disagree

I think you've made very valid points about mental illness, and our overall avoidance and squemishness with the subject.
However, Rusty Yates was the father of these five children. And, as the father, and Andrea's husband, he bears a huge responsibility.
He was equally a parent who should have been as concerned about each child's welfare, as well as that of his severely ill wife.
If he is religious, he took a solemn oath to stand by his wife "in sickness and in health". In my opinion, he failed as a husband and a father.
He left his five very young children with a woman who had been institutionalized on several occasions and who was suffering from severe depression.
He was negligent. Maybe not criminally negligent. But, really, what kind of father leaves his children with a person so severely disabled?
He wouldn't have hired his own wife as a babysitter. She wouldn't have been qualified.
Yet he left his children with her day in and day out.
He was the father of those children. He was her husband.
He failed totally as a father and husband.
What purpose do his fundamentalist beliefs serve if he is so careless with what should be his primary roles?

[EFerrari]

81. Imho, Yates only wishes he had as much power and control

as many people think he had.

Maybe his children would still be alive, then.

[lumberjack_jeff]

103. Very, very, very well said. Thank you.

For too many people, the murder of Rusty's five children is insufficient punishment for his crime of trusting the psychiatrists.

It's not unreasonable to assume that a psychiatrist wouldn't send a dangerously psychotic person home to her little kids. This is the assumption that Rusty made.

[TahitiNut]

105. Excellent, balanced, rational post.

:thumbsup: A breath of fresh air with all the vigilantism and blame mongering going around.

[OzarkDem]

110. He could have used birth control

particularly when he knew she wasn't capable of making a rational choice about having more children.

[Dinger]

49. He Seems A Little . . . . Martian To Me

Can't help it, he seems like he is a Martian in human form. It is just me?

[Generator]

60. no! you nailed it

The dude is just plain creepy.

[likesmountains 52]

62. Could not agree more..makes my skin crawl..

[EFerrari]

73. No just you. He doesn't seem to do camera well. He doesn't

project his personality like most people do. And sometimes, he comes off as if he lives in bubble.

But, so did many of my professors at Berkeley.

lol

[JerseygirlCT]

59. I agree with you.

He's culpable. He's also a creep.

[hopeisaplace]

64. Sounds like you and your hubby had a similar conversation

to my hubby and I...:)
I said the same thing you did to your hubby. My guy, didn't respond, so I
think he may agree with me :shrug:


edit: typo

[SammyBlue]

65. So long as he did not take an active part in the killings, legally, he has

no responsibility.

Remember, being a dickhead, douchebag, and bad father/husband is not a crime. Just like being a bitch, liar and a bad mother/wife isn't a crime.

Murder is. Mr. Yates didn't kill anyone. Andrea Yates did. And that's the legal argument.

[samsingh]

66. i agree with you, but i think she's responsible as well

[EFerrari]

72. I wonder why we focus so much on Yates and on Andrea

when they were paying good money to an HMO that failed them utterly.

When they lived in a family and in a community that didn't step in when it could have.

When their lives were so overwhelmed by just trying to live, day to day, with mistreated major mental illness. They are, in my book, also victims of our callous disregard for families trying to survive while dealing with mental illness.

The blood of those five kids is on ***all*** our hands. Maybe that's why we have to vilify them.

Sure gets us off the hook.

[samsingh]

83. the yates did the horrible, unspeakable crime

the yates have to be under scrutiny because they are guilty.

HMOs have caused alot of devastation and misery, but most voters - e.g. repugs - don't care, don't understand, think it's somebody else's problem.

these are the guilty parties in this horrible crime. the rest of us are working hard to get a government elected that is not pure evil.

i feel like crying everytime i think of the kids.

[EFerrari]

93. Me, too. But the fact is, the Yates were dealing with

a stigmatized and dangerous illness in this society. That Andrea is a woman only added to how easily it was minimized. They did everything, as far as I can tell, to get it under control.

Rusty Yates didn't kill any one. Andrea Yates killed her children in a state of paranoid delusion -- a state that is preventable, by the way. Both of them will suffer more than we can ever imagine for the rest of their lives because this society has no plan when it comes to mental illness. None, zip. Zero.

Bush put together a commission to look into mental illness and so far of course, that commission has done nothing.

We can't count on anyone else to do this. WE have to educate ourselves. WE have to look out for each other. Because it will be a long time before our health care system or even, before our neighbors really understand what that means.

God help the children.

[samsingh]

113. it's a horrible set of events

with many people to blame

[samsingh]

67. i'm sickened and saddened by the horror those poor children

must have felt.

[WinkyDink]

89. He seems to me to be a zombie, affectless, cold, NUTS. He

further never seemed to grieve over his children, at least in contrast to Mr. (Susan) Smith.

[lumberjack_jeff]

104. The guy's a rocket engineer...

We're all a product of our environment. Your description of Rusty as "cold" "affectless zombie" is how a lot of people describe people with autism. My experience with autism makes me wonder that perhaps he has ASD and was unable to pick up on the cues that to the rest of us might be obvious.

[Raine]

90. I bet he will soon

be breeding again with his new wife. :puke:

[Warren DeMontague]

97. Nope. And I think the folks who filled their heads with whackjob nonsense

bear some responsibility, too.

I mean, shit- if she was a pothead or a satanist, the media would have no problem blaming it on her "lifestyle". But she's a far gone Jesus freak who thought "God" was speaking to her and was terrified one of her kids would grow up to be gay. Oh. Well, she must just be insane- it has nothing to do with the blather she's been brainwashed with.

[depakid]

98. That man's a criminal in my opinion

He knew the danger- and should have foreseen the consequences of isloating and sequestering his mentally ill wife and exposing her to that fundamentalist whacko- who only fed her religious delusions.

I think in a more progressive state- given that he wasn't an ignorant man (he worked for NASA, for crissakes) he might have been indicted and maybe convicted for child endangerment- of some sort of criminally negligent homicide.

[EFerrari]

99. What evidence do you have to say such a horrible thing

about a man who lost his whole family in such a horrible way.

Really. It just sets me back when I read this stuff.

On edit: I really don't mean to pick on you. But you know, we sound just like Coulter when we say these things, based on what we heard during our commute from the corporate media. Just like her.

[depakid]

102. He knew or should have known

what happens to people with a history of severe postpartum and a family history of bipolar disorder and depression. She'd had previous instances of delusional behavior.

She'd had a previous suicide attempt- and was so messed up just prior to this happening, her appearance, her hygiene- religious delusions that even a blind person could tell she was a danger to herself and others.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to care enough to do a little research and make a few sacifices.

Yet instead of ensuring she got adequate treatment and monitoring- instead of putting her in touch with peer supoport groups what did he do- oh yeah- he kept her isolated- homeschooling kids. Fed her delusions through exposure to a fundy whacko-

Under the circumstances- considering her psychosocial conditions (Axis IV) it actually would have been surprising if something DIDNT happen.

I have not one ounce of sympathy for the man- not one. He's an abuser and belongs behind bars lest he hurts someone else.

<on edit>

Court TV actually has a fine set of pieces that chronical the case

http://www.courttv.com/trials/yates/

[EFerrari]

108. Um, Rusty Yates did everything in his power to see to it that

she had the best care he could secure.

And, he did that against the teachings of his wack job pastor. And he enlisted the rest of the family.

YOU have no real knowledge of his situation, of Andrea's illness or of what that family was trying to handle.

CourtTv? Oh my fucking god.

I sincerely hope you and yours never need the kind of care and support the Yates needed. And did not get.

[depakid]

112. I may know much more than you imagine

about mental health issues- so in the future, you might be more careful with your aspersions.

The fact is that this was a very foreseeable event- and from my review of the facts, the man was clearly negligent- especially just prior to the tragedy.

I've seen and assisted (in various ways) in more dysfunctional circumstances like this than I care to recall (I've also lost people)- and so in most cases, I have the utmost sympathy for family and friends of people dealing with mental disorders (or Axis II personality disorders- which in some ways, are much more difficult).

Perhaps that explains a little of why I have something of an emotional disdain for Mr. Yates.

Also, as a critical thinker- I was very surprised at how well the court TV site chronicaled the case. In almost any other circumstance- I'd question that as a source- though here it's mostly a secondary source (and of course- not everything in the sequence of articles is worth the pixels it's written on).

[NNadir]

101. If he was on the Today show, I'll bet he got softball commentary.

There was probably, I would guess, lots of comments about him nobly moving on.

I have never watched the Today show - at least since Hugh Downs was the young host - but given our media, I know this is what happened.

[sandrakae]

106. He has a lot to be guilty about. Read the link below

She was mentally ill for a long time, and a lot of it to do with their living conditions.

http://crime.about.com/od/current/p/andreayates.htm

[XemaSab]

111. I think you can never know

what goes on between two people.

Seriously.