What Israel Has Wrought:

[cali]

Nearly 400 deaths, the majority of them civilians.

Thousands of people grievously injured.

A severe degradation of the Lebanese infrastructure, including 80% of the roads and 95% of the bridges.

700,000 internally displace refugees leading to a serious humanitarian crisis.

Anger and hate that lead to solidarity with H'zbollah.

A further destabilization of a fragile part of the world.

I don't hate Israel, and I have vocally decried some of the more disturbing anti-Israel comments and threads, but how on earth do these actions make Israel safer? And beyond that, even if they did, how can they be justified? I understand that there are people who support Israel, but what Israel has done over the past 12 days is criminal: Using phosphorus weapons, bombing civilian vehicles, bombing red cross vehicles- all of those are criminal actions.

Nothing good for Israel can come from this.

[jonnyblitz]

1. Not all Israeli and jewish folk approve of this.

Just like probably most Americans (by now) don't approve of the Iraq war.

I am not referring to you personally ,Cali, I am just making a general comment.

[cali]

2. You know I know

that Jonny. I'm absolutely not indicting all Israeli or Jews.

[jonnyblitz]

3. check my edit. i hit send too fast.

good post, btw.

[chimpymustgo]

4. Cali, thank you for acknowledging this. I know you support Israel, but it

is imperative that those who love her, speak the truth on this.

[liberalhistorian]

6. Amen! And to me,

speaking out against the particular actions of a country you're generally supportive of actually shows far more support for that country than just blindly supporting its actions no matter what. OK, that wasn't exactly expressed clearly, but I'm recovering from eye surgery so I'm not quite the brilliant communicator I usually am, lol.

If I were an Israeli right now, I would be very fearful of what was to come. I would recognize that these actions are just like poking a stick around in a hornet's nest, and that they are not making my country any safer. Quite the opposite, in fact. And I'm as fearful for Israeli citizens now as I am for Lebanese and Gaza civilians.

[oneold1-4u]

12. "If I were an Israeli right now"

The concern for life has been the same for almost 50 years in Israel. Think of your own concern on the day of 9/11, and for several days after, when only a few idiots of kind, died to murder thousands. That's how it is in Israel every day, with millions of that same type of suicidal neighbor stepping into their homes each day.
We do have some factions all around us, that we make an attempt to control with laws, but where they have no law enforced, they would do just as the terrorist jihads in the ME, with mass murders and death to all who differ.
Many religions follow idiots!

[lastliberalintexas]

22. Not certain what you mean exactly

Even the day of 9/11, I was more afraid of what kind of revenge our country would demand. I did not and do not support the war in Afghanistan any more than the war in Iraq, as they are both wars against poor people who did nothing to us, who are instead merely trying to survive themselves.

Even with the very real fear that my area was a potential target of terrorists due to refineries, petrochemical plants and one of the largest oil storage farms in the world, I was more saddened than anything. To desire violence and revenge immediately after such an attack might be natural, but with even the slightest bit of reflection, humane caring people should choose to forego retribution simply for selfish reasons- any half way intelligent person realizes that such revenge merely feeds into the cycle of violence and brings more harm to their own communities in the long run.

[cali]

14. Please read post #13 n/t

[cali]

13. Huh?

I don't support Israel. I don't have any connection to it. And I have condemned Israeli actions not only in Lebanon but in Gaza, and regarding the occupation- which I deplore not only for its brutality, but for the humiliation, which wears so terribly on the Palestinians. I've made all these criticisms for quite some time in the I/P forum.

But here's what I've done and not done: I've consistently said that this conflicted is not wholly one sided and that Palestinians deserve condemnation as well. And I've never made egregious or hateful remarks about Israel or Israelis.

The level of hate toward Israel is something I find disturbing. I've expressed that. Isn't it funny that my objecting to hate, and not looking for every little thing to fault Israel with, should lead you to believe that I support and love Israel?

[Warren DeMontague]

5. I agree. I can't imagine how they think this could be productive

from any standpoint.

[PATRICK]

11. Productive has little to do with it

Coming from my 'bias" where I believe a lot of what is occurring presently is hardwired to US policy partnership I would think, in one way or another, it is certain that the WH plans are directly responsible for this.

Either Bush is delaying or abandoning(unlikely) attempts to hit Iran. In any event there could be a delay that either has emboldened or given time for Iranian sponsored movements in several nations to be pro-active, pre-emptive to counter the Little Cowboys openly repetitive campaign against target number two. There is not going to be any Saddam-like hunkering down even if they avoid the type of "provocation" to give face-saving legitimacy to Bush's aggression. ALL the events being poised for that eventuality would include hitting Israel hard from every quarter. Why wait for what must be worse to hit you first under the constraints of Bush's dithering action against Iran.

So Israel acts now to allow some pre-emption of its own. Take out the escalating Hezbollah threat and lay waste their base. Beat down Hamas. These are war and defense decisions and whether it is to goad Bush or take care of business if the US backs away, it amounts to the same necessity- from a hardliner's point of view. They have had their "provocation" and the time to fight the inevitable- thanks to Bush(either hitting Iran or backing down)- is actually less incendiary now than during an even larger war involving real armed forces. The dominoes of violent strategy are toppling in order, the one who strikes first supposedly getting some advantage. No way can Israel solve this on their own and the other side of this dilemma is that by going against the world, their only remaining ally is the treacherously incompetent Bush team whose motives are far far from genuine support of Israel- if any really exists at all.

For this Dick Cheney and Ariel Sharon- our two vegetating strong men- ar primarily responsible.

This is part of something set in stone by Israel and the US advancing the current policy. More widely of course, once the killing starts the public is not too cognizant of this background. Works in Israel because they are under attack. Doesn't work so well here- UNLESS we are attacked on the homeland. Bush has been sticking our chin way way out on that one and must be disappointed so far no one, however filled with hatred, is as stupid or as grossly enabled as he is.

[TomClash]

7. Distressing pictures on KO

Targeting Red Cross ambulances? How is that different from what suicide bombers do to Israeli children?

Almost as many Lebanese civilians have died in the past week as Israeli civilians died in the entire second intifada. Israel will never have the moral high ground again.

[oberliner]

8. Assigning Blame

I have found your posts on this subject to be outstandingly well-reasoned and refreshingly civil.

That said, I feel that your title "What Israel Has Wrought" is a somewhat unfair categorization.

That nearly 400 civilians have been killed in this conflict is absolutely deplorable.

The way that Israel has, as you described, degraded the Lebanese infrastructure also warrants condemnation.

Presenting these facts, however, with no mention of Hezbollah's initiation of the conflict, I feel, lacks fairness.

UN Representatives, none too sympathetic to Israel, while condemning the disproportionate response of the IDF, do at least make mention of Hezbollah's illegal actions in crossing into Israel in taking two Israel soldiers capitve (and also killing several other Israeli soldiers in the process) while debating the issue in the security council.

Your post also makes no mention of the fact that Hezbollah continues to shoot rockets into populated civilian areas of no military significance which has led to deaths and injuries on the Israeli side.

Also omitted is the Hezbollah tactic of attempting to melt into the civilian population.

Let me be clear, that I am not bringing up these points as justification for Israel's actions.

Anyone seeing the photos of the devastation and reading the tales of horror from the innocent civilians in Lebanon cannot help but be horrified.

Omitting the critical elements that I've mentioned above, however, does tend to give one the impression that Israel has invaded a country unprovoked, is deliberately targetting civilians, and is not itself under any sort of attack whatsoever.

We all want the fighting to stop and we all want there to be peace and no further loss of life.

I feel that posts with titles such as yours and other similar sentiments places the blame on one side and one side alone.

While I certainly respect your right to hold the opinion (with which I do not agree) that one side and one side alone is in fact to blame for this situation, I think it's important to move towards the next step.

If the next generation of posts focussed on suggestions and ideas for how we can help bring an end to this conflict and bring peace then I think DU would be much better served.

As Dennis Kucinich said when proposing his cease-fire resolution:

"My resolution is not about assigning blame, it is about seeking an end to the conflict."

Whatever disagreements we may hold, I think we can be united in our desire to seek the end of this conflict.

[burythehatchet]

10. Read my earlier post.

This all part of a plan that has been in writing and is a product of the PNAC. The neocons and likudniks have been actively working against peace for over a decade. This is all planned and it will not stop. There will be a new enemy everyday.

[oneold1-4u]

16. "innocent civilians in Lebanon"

It is sad that the only purpose for Hizbollah to use women, children, (civilians) is to hide what they do, and then scream when those are killed, after they have gone to a more secure area. That isn't an "army" but a lot of scoundrels with terrorist power, who know how to use the "idealism" of non-islamic people.

[cali]

17. You're right. I'm assigning blame.

But it's because I see what Israel has done as deserving of that blame. No, I don't see this as completely one sided, and I know that this wasn't only about the capture/kidnapping, but nevertheless Israel is creating great suffering on a civilian population. To be blunt, Israel is practicing what amounts to collective punishment. It may not be the intent, in fact I don't think it is. I think the Israelis are so determined to get H'zbollah that they're willing to sacrifice Lebanon. Not just individual lives, but the country itself. Between callous indifference and intentional infliction, what's the difference?

[burythehatchet]

9. Cali

I don't know if you listened to Randi Rhodes' show today, but she was reading from a memo that was a PNAc product which laid out in detail all the events that are happening today. It also included the plan to keep the Palestinian terretories destabilized, and, most incredibly, laid out the strategy to torpedo the Oslo accord. All this has been planned, and is a furtherance of the insane plan by the PNAC to completely annihilate the middle east. I am so incensed by this I can hardly keep from shaking with anger.

[cali]

18. No. I'm not a talk show person.

Don't watch the talking heads either. And I'm kind of the opposite of a conspiracy theory person: I'm an Occam's razor sort. I hear hoof beats at midnight on Central park West, I think horses, not zebras. And in most of life, I think there are too many variable caused by too many different influences, to find most conspiracy theories plausible.

[burythehatchet]

19. pitiful. conspiracy theories that are outlined in documents

and memos authored by the people who are executing their strategies. Yeah, this is about a kidnapped soldier.

[cali]

20. I rely upon

a wide range of material to form my opinions. I also have a background in history which, i think, helps me to look at materials with a critical eye.

No, of course it's not about 2 captured soldiers. It's about history that's built up like creosote. Layer upon dangerous layer. It's about emotions and religion and land. Pretty combustible elements in any conflict. There are always people like you; lots of them. In fact, history is replete with them; people who look for one simple unifying theory of everything. That's not usually how it works, but have fun.

[leftofthedial]

15. typical right-wing response to a problem

use the problem for maximum short-term political advantage

then make the problem immeasurably worse

[The Stranger]

21. A catastrophic error in judgment, probably dictated by someone

wanting to show they are "tough on terror," actually as a matter of internal politics.

So what is the endgame?