Has anyone read what the Democratic Platform says about Israel?

[Freddie Stubbs]

The Democratic Party is fundamentally committed to the security of our ally Israel
and the creation of a comprehensive, just and lasting peace between Israel and her neighbors. Our
special relationship with Israel is based on the unshakable foundation of shared values and a mutual
commitment to democracy, and we will ensure that under all circumstances, Israel retains the qualitative
edge for its national security and its right to self-defense. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and should
remain an undivided city accessible to people of all faiths.

Under a Democratic Administration, the United States will demonstrate the kind of resolve to end
the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that President Clinton showed. We will work to transform the Palestinian
Authority by promoting new and responsible leadership, committed to fighting terror and promoting
democracy. We support the creation of a democratic Palestinian state dedicated to living in peace and
security side by side with the Jewish State of Israel. The creation of a Palestinian state should resolve
the issue of Palestinian refugees by allowing them to settle there, rather than in Israel. Furthermore, all
understand that it is unrealistic to expect that the outcome of final status negotiations will be a full and
complete return to the armistice lines of 1949. And we understand that all final status negotiations must
be mutually agreed.

http://a9.g.akamai.net/7/9/8082/v002/www.democrats.org/pdfs/2004platform.pdf

[SoCalDem]

1. same ole same ole... It's the "Mom's favorite child" doctrine..nt

[MADem]

4. What would you rather it say? NT

[SoCalDem]

8. That we are their ally, as we are with ALL our allies, BUT

first and foremost, a TRUE peace plan for ALL involved must be hammered out..ASAP..with everyone participating..syria, jordan, lebanon, israel, iran...all of them.....with a re-division/allocation/.whatever of land if necessary.

[MADem]

14. Forget that, frankly!!!

Who are WE to be divvying up the land the way "WE" think it should be divided? Come on! You take from one, you give to another, SOMEONE is gonna be unhappy. And they'll blame US!!! We shouldn't have a THING to do with those exercises. That's for the players to work out, not us.

At some point in time, and that time has long passed, these matters are issues for the actors involved--not Uncle Superpower. We can play the Carter or Clinton role, and provide a venue to facilitate, and a personality that cajoles, but at the end of the day, the people making peace have to agree to the terms THEMSELVES.

We're influencers, in that we have money (carrots) and we have military might (sticks). But we don't own the oxen...and it's a bit paternalistic of us to start imposing our vision of how independent nations should be organized and their borders defined on the rest of the world.

That's what got us, the French, and the Brits in trouble in the FIRST place--drawing INSANE lines on maps (Jordan is probably the most egregious example, it looks like a scrotal sac and a Bobbited penis), divvying up the Mid-East to satisfy a bunch of Emirs who wanted to be called "King."

And in more modern times, look at how swell our "imposition" of democracy is working out in Iraq...and how we managed to avoid challenging the repressive society of our Gulf One allies, the "freedom-loving" peoples of Kuwait, who continue to oppress women and deny people basic rights as we understand them. We pull the same shit with Dubai, run by seven bastards in robes who inherited the job from their daddies...but hey, business is business!

Finally, you must realize that there are nations that do not want peace, and all of the hectoring and lecturing in the world will not sway them. War is good for business, some think. Others think it can serve as a national definer and glue. As an example, the Iran-Iraq War (the one we gave Saddam money to prosecute, to keep those Ayatullahs in a box while we figured out what to do about our loss of our pal the Shah over that way) kept nationalism in Iran at a fever pitch while the Ayatullahs were getting their feet entrenched in the government after the fall of the Shah. It UNITED Iran, that ten year bloodbath, and it unites them to this day. It's a shared experience....

These militias that are pushing and shoving won't be content with small concessions, either. The old "give an inch, they'll take a mile" has to be considered a real possibility...especially with the ones who in their written charters advocate overthrow of Israel and extermination of the Jewish people...and that's pretty much all of them.

[SoCalDem]

15. I never said WE would divide anything.. THEY (all of them)

in the region must come to terms for anything to work..

Outsiders dictating to them is what CAUSED the whole mess..

[MADem]

18. But that's pretty much what the plank said in the first place....

At least vis a vis Israel and Palestine:

And we understand that all final status negotiations must
be mutually agreed.

[SoCalDem]

19. Actually, I don't expect anything to be resolved in MY lifetime

The Bristish planted a toxic tree, and we are all eating the poison berries:(

[MADem]

21. Yep, I'm afraid you are probably right there. NT

[Freddie Stubbs]

36. Moms usually prefer the children who aren't terrorists

[Jawja]

2. Self Deleted.

[mmonk]

3. Nothing wrong with it if it works and it

has to work for the parties involved or the violence won't end.

[Kagemusha]

5. Hmm, now that I look closely, US policy now is nothing like that.

Maybe if it was, things'd be easier.

[Freddie Stubbs]

39. But it seems that many DUers want a policy far different than the paltform

[David__77]

6. So?

That doesn't make it right. The establishment agrees with that program, but there are plenty of us who disagree and will voice our views.

[ShortnFiery]

7. Yes, just because it's touted to be the current Democratic

Party Platform, it can be changed. DEMOCRACY is fluid. :hi:

[cgrindley]

9. Why should it be changed?

Israel should have a right to exist, and the Palestinians should be encouraged not to elect terrorist governments. The solutions involved should be peaceful and Jerusalem should be a non-divided city.

[ShortnFiery]

11. Because the Government of Israel is NOT being a good neighbor

to Palestine nor Lebanon. They kidnap their elected officials, bulldoze and bomb their lands, and in general, help to promote the cycle of violence.

Hey, Lebanon and Gaza also has a right to defend themselves from any future OCCUPATIONS by the Government of Israel.

[MADem]

20. Uh, who attacked first, re: Lebanon???

The BAD neighbor here was Hizb'Allah, who came over the border, murdered EIGHT reservists, snatched two, and then ran back over the border and started lobbing Iranian rockets at Haifa.

That is why Israel is bombing the shit out of them. Not for fun. They've had eight guys killed, two guys captured, and thousands of missiles and rockets tossed at them. The bombing came AFTER the Hizzies pulled that crap, not before.

[ShortnFiery]

26. Wrong, you know better. You know that Israel has always been the THUG

aggressor with imprisonments for no reason and occupation / bulldozing / killing of innocents indiscriminately. You know that ... don't you?

[MADem]

30. Way to avoid the question!

Let me answer it for you. Hizb'Allah, the shi'a arm of IRAN in Lebanon, attacked first. They crossed the border, they killed eight kids, they kidnapped two, and then they started firing Iranian made rockets and missiles over the border.

At that point, Israel responded.

We aren't talking about what is happening in the south. We're talking about the northern border. You won't find bulldozers up there.

What you are trying to pull with your equivalency stunt is a lot like trying to equate US Mexican policy with US Canadian policy. Not the same. No matter how much you try to meld them.

All Muslims do NOT look alike, especially when they aren't of the same nationality, or even the same sect.

[leesa]

33. Now they're kids? I don't trust that Israel didn't start this. I don't

trust their word one bit. They had this plan in place prior to the IDF soldier captured in Palestine.

[ShortnFiery]

35. No, you may NOT answer for me ... yes,

regardless of your "LABELING equally evil" acts of murder on BOTH sides, every human life is precious. Perhaps the government of Israeli will never realize that hundreds of innocent Lebanese civilians are not *equivalent* to 2 captured Israeli Soldiers.

I have no doubt, that The Arab World, even the MODERATES will scorn Israel, and the rest of The World Community will watch in horror as the ONGOING KILLING of innocent civilians continues unabated by Israel's cowardly act of bombing from thousands of feet up in their mighty mighty war planes.

There's absolutely NO honor or "protecting oneself" with regard to Israel's present actions of Disproportionate Retribution. They should be ashamed to consider their people lives as more important as those of the Lebanese. :thumbsdown:

[David__77]

16. Why shouldn't Jerusalem/al-Qods be "divided?"

That's what the UN says should happen. It doesn't recognize Israeli sovereignty over territories seized after 1967.

[Mir]

41. Democracy IS fluid.

However, duocratic corporate fascism is not. There is no alternative in this country vis-a-vis the policies toward Israel and that will never change. The Democratic party needs to stop acting like the fucking repukes before it has a chance to anything for this country - let alone the world.

[whistle]

10. Same ol', same ol'....do not expect anything different

[WilliamPitt]

12. The Democratic plan for supporting Israel

is "We need to support Israel because we need New York's electoral college votes."

[theboss]

23. Oh, please

The Democrats have been strong supporters of Israel dating back to the days New York was controlled by the Rockefellers.

[Selatius]

24. While it is true many US citizens of Jewish faith vote Democratic...

I think they'd still vote Democratic despite a Democratic president not being afraid to criticize Israeli foreign policy with respect to the West Bank or Lebanon or anything else that could be at issue. It's a whole hell of a lot better than voting for a corporatist crypto-fascist Republican who constantly draws parallels in the academic/activist community with Adolf Hitler. Besides, it's the more bigoted voters who would probably do whatever is necessary to try to insinuate that the Dem president is really anti-semitic and is soft on terrorism even though that president may be neither.

[Ignoramus]

13. It's the platform on "The Middle East"; bias in favor of Israel

The heading is "The middle east". And what it has to say about "the middle east" is that Israel is their ally, i.e. we officially side with Israel.

Doesn't "jewish state" mean bias against those who are not jewish?

Since "jewish" is taken as something like a racial identity, isn't this roughly analogous to declaring a "white state"?

I think there should be a single secular state that can not discriminate based on race or religion.

[rug]

17. Where does it say Bomb The Shit Out Of Lebanon?

[cgrindley]

25. It says it right here

"we will ensure that under all circumstances, Israel retains the qualitative
edge for its national security and its right to self-defense."

That's where it says it.

[rug]

29. Lebanon did not attack Israel.

Ergo, no self-defense.

[cgrindley]

32. What?

This is sad. Really sad.

[rug]

34. Nice muttering but no cigar.

[Freddie Stubbs]

37. But Hezbollah is in Lebanon

Perhaps if Israel asled Hezbollah very nicely, the terrorists would move to less populated area to decrease civilian casualties.

[theboss]

22. Look at who just caught up

We have always been the Party that supports Israel. It wasn't until the late 80s that the Republicans set aside their inherent anti-Semitism long enough in order to see the political value of backing Israel.

We are "Democrats." Therefore, we support "Democracies," which is Israel.
Were are Democrats. Therefore, we support the historically oppressed, which is Israeal. (And before someone throws in the "They are the oppressors" line, I support a separate and free Palestinian state. But the Palestinians consistently have backed the wrong horse for nearly 40 years).

[ShortnFiery]

28. NO! Israel is now only ONE blessed democracy - Gaza Palestinians

Have democratically ELECTED a government that Israel doesn't like mostly of Hamas. Tough! It's part of their legitimate government. Also Lebanon has had fair and free elections that resulted in 23 seats to the multifaceted (no, not all evil) Hezabollah.

Gaza and Lebanon have ELECTED democracies, therefore, THEY ALSO have a right to protect themselves.

[tabasco]

27. Active involvement to achieve peace.

Bush ignored the situation - see what we got.

The Russians will have more influence in the region than we do after the disastrous Bush years.

[muriel_volestrangler]

31. It's about as much help as the original Balfour Declaration

"We support the State of Israel, with Jerusalem as its capital. But we support a Palestinian state too. All negotiations should be agreed, but we don't say what we'll do if the Palestinians object to the Dome of the Rock being in Israel. Or if they object to losing any other land from the 1949 boundaries. Whatever you do, don't mention the wall. I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it".

It would be a marvellous plan, if we could just clone that area between the Mediterranean and the Jordan. Anyone got any embryonic-nation-state stem cells handy?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. Platitudes and double-talk.

It supposedly supports "negotiations" then removes negotiating points. i.e. The status of Jerusalem, and the 1949 armistice lines.

Sort of like the boss offering to negotiate salaries but prohibiting the discussion of wage hikes.

[Freddie Stubbs]

40. Seems pretty clear which side the Party supports

[rucky]

42. Two-States: We need to repeat that policy as often as possible

when there's fighting in the MidEast. It needs to be clear that Democratic support of Israel always has that goal in mind, or it just provokes more tension - within the party and everywhere else.