I do not support Israel

[DoYouEverWonder]

I do not support the Palestinians

I do not support the Iraqis

I do not support the Irish

I do not support the USA

I do not support the Russians

I do not support.....

I do not support anyone who uses violence to achieve their goals.

I do support all of the oppressed people in the world no matter where they live.


Just wanted to let my fellow DUers know where I'm coming from.


I am not an anti _________.

I am a pro human being.

[redqueen]

1. I'm with you!

Well said, DYEW! :thumbsup:

[wtmusic]

2. Sometimes being pro-human being means being anti-something else

no? :shrug:

[DoYouEverWonder]

3. Oh I'm anti a lot of things

I'm anti hate.

I'm anti violence.

I'm anti greed.

Heck sometimes I'm even anti matter.

[wtmusic]

6. Do you support those who use violence to defend themselves?

Do you hate the Bush administration?

Just trying to clarify.

[DoYouEverWonder]

9. I have studied

Aikido, I have no problem with self defense. However, you learn in Aikido that you rarely need violence to defend yourself.

[wtmusic]

10. Not sure Aikido would be effective

in the current round of Middle East conflict.

[DoYouEverWonder]

13. It is a way of life

It is how you live.

It is how you respond to things.

And until more people learn better ways to live and treat each other, then there will never be peace.

Half the battle is attitude and right now the bully attitude has taken over. It is up to us to change that.

[wtmusic]

18. Bullying never plays a part in self-defense

and your argument assumes moral equivalence of both sides in a conflict.

[DoYouEverWonder]

20. The bullies are the aggressors

What would be to self defend against if there weren't aggressors?

[wtmusic]

21. exactly

so defenders must use violence to "achieve their goals" (that's where it gets sticky...)

[DoYouEverWonder]

25. In response to a physical attack

I will defend myself.

However, that does not give me the right to go firebomb that person's house and family afterwards.

That is not self defense, that is revenge.

[wtmusic]

27. OK...

what if the army of a neighboring country just firebombed your house and killed your family. They were about to do it to your neighbor, so you...WAIT just a minute! That's not self-defense!

[Ignoramus]

23. We are all morally equivalent

at all times. No one gets moral credit. There are no bad people, only bad actions.

As for "defending yourself". A country is not a person. So, you are not "defending yourself" by attacking a country. Countries don't attack anything, they are a geographical area.

The valid question is, do you have the right to blow up your own town in reaction to an attack by someone in your town? Since we are all equal, we are all Israeli, we are all Lebanese, we are all Palestinian.

[wtmusic]

26. Were it that simple

One group of people shouldn't unite in organized defense against another? Americans shouldn't have united against Nazi Germany?

[Ignoramus]

28. Populations are not accountable for the actions of sub-groups

Yes groups should organize against other groups. But a population is not a group just because that group says so.

Americans vs. Nazi Germany is apples and oranges. America the government certainly should have fought against nazi germany the government. But the population that resides in America against the population tha resides in germany would be wrong.

Again it is essentially the same question of what you would do to your own town. If people in your town are attacking you, you don't bomb your own town. So, on the extreme, fire bombing tokyo or dresden were acts of terror against innocent people. As for what you do if someone is holed up somewhere firing missiles at you, it becomes an issue that depends on the situation. But if you view it as what you would do in your own town, certainly blowing up your entire town is out of the question.

Countries occur because of acts of terror. First there are people, then acts of terror cause a violent group to claim a geographical area as their own. The terror doesn't suddenly become okay, because the terrorists succeeded in claiming a geographical area.

Governments/Gangs/Groups are accountable for their policies.
Individuals are accountable for their actions.
Populations are not accountable for the policies of their subjegators, nor the actions of other individuals who happen to also be subject to the rule by violence of their assigned group.

[wtmusic]

29. I admire your position

although I'm not sure you can separate the concepts of "governments" and "populations" so cleanly.

What's happening in Lebanon is a case in point. What is the relationship between Lebanese government/Hezbollah/Lebanese civilians? A complex question with a more complex answer. By painting with a broad brush Israel has united all three groups against them, and not with positive consequences.

A modicum of restraint would have made all the difference.

[Ignoramus]

32. I think it is easy to separate the two

The population in lebanon is not accountable for the actions or policies of their goverment or hezbollah, where "accountable" is used in an absolute sense. In an absolute sense, the question is not complex at all.

An individual that is on a shooting spree, is absolutely accountable for his actions. The other kids that made his life hell, resulting in him snapping, are not absolutely accountable for his actions though, though they are reponsible to some extent. If I were one of those kids that taunted the shooter, I would feel that I should hold myself responsible.

We have some responsibility for the actions of our governments. So, I am somewhat to blame for the death caused by the Bush administration, but I don't deserve to be killed because the Bush lead US launched a war of aggression against Iraq.

[DoYouEverWonder]

36. So should the Iraqi people

come to the US and bomb civilians because our goverment invaded and destroyed their country?

[wtmusic]

37. Whether you like it or not, you are supporting the US government

with your tax dollars. You are paying for the bombs that are killing them. You are aiding and abetting them. There is blood on your hands, and mine.

Should they bomb civilians? No. Would I be surprised if they did? Not in the slightest.

[sgxnk]

16. aikido

aikido is not even effective in actual martial arts combat

it's a pretty art, and an interesting philosophy

but it's ineffective

see my other post

please show me the aikido practitioner who can win in MMA events

proof is in the results

[sui generis]

22. Aikido isn't effective anywhere but with another aikido practitioner

it's a wonderful idea though and as much philosophy as martial art. Just doesn't really work against someone who only uses the theme of violence as a martial art.

I understand violence is necessary sometimes, as a last resort. Diplomacy has the goals of protecting one's national interests, avoiding violence and loss of life and economy, developing channels for communication, pressuring with progressively more severe sanctions, until finally open aggression is merited if there is no change as a result of the prior escalation of diplomacy.

The idea of diplomacy is one of level response and balance, because as you know from Aikido putting yourself out of balance to try to achieve some advantage in a fight nevertheless makes you vulnerable to your opponent, nevermind Israel's stance with multiple opponents.

Likewise, any opponent who uses the same combination over and over again, no matter how effective, is showing you a weakness. Israel's one-note sonata is "bash them back, bash them harder than they hit us, maybe they'll stop, screw the consequences".

Well, Hizbolla just played Israel's sonata in a standing ovation performance, and Israel reacted blindly exactly as Hizbollah wanted. Poke a bear with a stick to enrage it. Poke a bear with a stick often enough, and you end up with a tired, angry, weakened bear. Bear needs to learn a new dynamic if bear doesn't want to be a rug, but "Aikido", like all out violence, is a predictable, manipulable extreme.

[wtmusic]

24. 'Bear needs to learn a new dynamic if bear doesn't want to be a rug'

:rofl:

thanks for that

[sgxnk]

34. exactly

aikido is pretty, has a nifty philosophy (devoid of actual relevance but what the heck) behind it, etc.

but it is MINIMALLY effective at best, as a method of self-defense

which is the point.

[sgxnk]

14. lol

i have studied aikido

and muay thai and jiu jitsu etc.

aikido is a nice philosophy, but it doesn't WORK

proof positive is UFC, PRIDE etc.

no aikido practitioner has come close to dominating, which is proof that aikido is pretty and somewhat effective, but nowhere NEAR as effective as an MMA style involving targeted strikes etc.

or can u show me ONE aikido practitioner who can beat

1) randy couture
2) tito ortiz
3) chuck liddell

etc.

the proof is in the results. not the nifty prettiness and arcane philosophy

[DoYouEverWonder]

15. Then you don't understand

the philosophy behind Aikido. It is not about 'beating' anybody. That is not the point.

[sgxnk]

19. i am well aware of the point

i am well aware of the point of aikido

but your orig statement was wrong

aikido rougly translated: the way of unity with the fundamental force of the universe

that's groovy but it doesn't WORK

call me crazy, but my philosophy is that the first test of a martial art is that it should (wait for it...) actually WORK as a method of self defense

aikido is woefully lacking in that regard

so, i stand by my point

if i'm being attacked, i will rely on MMA skillz, to include those from the disciplines of Muay thai, jiu jitsu, wrestling, etc.

because they WORK

any martial art that doesn't WORK (nearly as well) as another has failed the first test

it's pretty and it has neat sounding philosophy

but it's effectiveness sucks

[shain from kane]

4. I just believe in me...and that reality

The dream is over
What can I say?
the Dream is Over
Yesterday
I was the Dreamweaver
But now I'm reborn
I was the Walrus
But now I'm John
and so dear friends
you'll just have to carry on
The Dream is over

[Bonobo]

5. Pretty controversial stuff there!

[mzteris]

7. well said. well done.

:applause:

I particularly like this bit - how could you work it into a tshirt/bumpersticker?



I am not an anti _________.

I am a pro human being.

[iamjoy]

8. Do You Support Anyone?

Are there any nations who haven't used violence to attain their ends?

I can't think of one, except maybe Switzerland and they handle the money of the people that DO use violence, so indirectly, the blood is on their hands too.

[DoYouEverWonder]

11. Of course

but at this point in my life I refuse to support anyone who supports War for any reason.

We don't live in the dark ages anymore. We can pick up a phone and talk to anyone in the world. We need to do it more often, before things get out of control.

[The Magistrate]

12. Swiss History Is Rather Interesting, Ma'am

Its citizen armies perfected mass infantry tactics capable of routinely defeating armored cavalry in the late medieval period, and in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, its principal export was mercenary soldiers....

[AliceWonderland]

17. I don't think that was rather the point of the post

And it was a good one.

I agree.

I am so burned out on violence and hate and dehumanization, I can't support any state or grand cause.

Pro-human being. To hell with the rest of it.

Damn, I HATE war.

[eagler]

30. Your attitude is what we should all strive for.

nt

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Freddie Stubbs]

33. The Democratic Pary's platform, and most of the Democrats in Congress do

[rug]

35. John Lennon

God is a concept,
By which we can measure,
Our pain,
I'll say it again,
God is a concept,
By which we can measure,
Our pain,
I don't believe in magic,
I don't believe in I-ching,
I don't believe in bible,
I don't believe in tarot,
I don't believe in Hitler,
I don't believe in Jesus,
I don't believe in Kennedy,
I don't believe in Buddha,
I don't believe in mantra,
I don't believe in Gita,
I don't believe in yoga,
I don't believe in kings,
I don't believe in Elvis,
I don't believe in Zimmerman,
I don't believe in Beatles,
I just believe in me,
Yoko and me,
And that's reality.
The dream is over,
What can I say?
The dream is over,
Yesterday,
I was dreamweaver,
But now I'm reborn,
I was the walrus,
But now I'm John,
And so dear friends,
You just have to carry on,
The dream is over.