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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 12:30 PM
Original message
Maybe we should start an economic revolution: Democratic Capitalism...
Edited on Wed Jul-19-06 12:31 PM by originalpckelly
No government owned companies. No company owned governments.

We encourage small businesses in most industries. For things that can only be done on a national level, we encourage cooperatives. For health care we encourage non-profit companies for all health services from top to bottom (right now there are many parts of the health industry that are for-profit, this certainly doesn't help lower health costs and quite frankly I think it is immoral to benefit from someone else's suffering, if you aren't helping that person get better.)

It is like communism, because all the people (not just a few) own everything. Instead of combining governments and companies they stay separate. Companies still compete with each other. People are still rewarded for working harder, yet the wealth would not collect in the hands of a few. To keep companies from being monopolistic, we can have a tax that becomes progressively higher with the size of the company. That way there will remain competition in the marketplace because people doing business will not want to pay higher taxes.

I am just starting to think about this. So if you have critiques please talk about them. Thanks. :hi:
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. I didn't know I would be using my crappy chirp smiley so soon:
Edited on Wed Jul-19-06 12:36 PM by originalpckelly
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. Certain aspects of your idea are very interesting.
And the first sentences are excellent.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Thanks.
Good slogan.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. The companies should pay everyone the same..
Why should the CEO get paid more than anyone else? If big oil companies did this, I don't think the price of gas would be as high.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. So if you work harder and have more experience...
Edited on Wed Jul-19-06 12:44 PM by originalpckelly
you shouldn't be rewarded for that?

I don't think CEOs do work that merits their currently high salaries, but people who rise through the chain of a company or who start a company should be rewarded.

I don't mean to be combative, but honestly is it fair for someone with ten years of experience to work really hard and make the same as someone who comes into work late and started their job a few months ago?
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. rewards are fine. I dont' think it should be money...
laptops, trips, time off...but everyone should get paid the same.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. But why should the company tell you what you will get for working hard?
Edited on Wed Jul-19-06 12:47 PM by originalpckelly
I think that is an issue of freedom. I don't think many people want others telling them how to spend their discretionary funds, do you?

Why not just pay someone $1,000 more and let them buy what they want, instead of spending $1,000 on a laptop for them?
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. As a CEO, you answer to the shareholders, but if the...
Edited on Wed Jul-19-06 12:50 PM by Selatius
shareholders are the workers themselves and they elected you into that position, then it stands to reason they also have the ability to set your pay. What if they instituted a rule that said nobody should be paid any higher than 5 or 10 times that of the lowest paid workers?
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I think that is a better version of what I was trying to say...
thanks. :hi:
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. I can just see the mastercard commerical now...
4 Years of College - $93,000
4 Years of medical school - $124,000

Making the same as the cashier in the cafeteria - PRICELESS
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
8. It sounds more like Market Socialism to me; I've been toying with the idea
Combining elements of socialism and marketplace competition. Instead of corporations run by a small ownership class competing against each other, you have co-ops competing against each other where all the workers have a say in how the co-ops are run instead of a small class of people.

Market socialism can only be implemented from the bottom-up though. This would require a radical revolution in the way people think about society in general. Until that happens, until socialism is accepted as a valid path towards the distribution of resources, it will not be adopted on a nation-wide scale.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Yeah it is the same, thing...
but I think there is a fundamental difference of principle between state ownership of the methods of production rather than private collective ownership.

Personally, I think that people associate state-ownership with the name socialism, and that it is probably a better idea to focus more on capitalism.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Well, socialism itself doesn't necessarily imply state socialism
Not all forms of socialism come through the state. If for some reason land, equipment, and factories were abandoned and the people in the area decided to appropriate the capital and directly decided for themselves a manner to share the fruits of labor using that capital as a means of survival, that would be a form of non-state socialism as there was no governing authority ordering the people to do this or not to do that.

The libertarian socialists did this quite often during the Spanish Civil War despite interference by communists backed by the Soviet Union and the fascists backed by Nazi Germany.
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Kip Humphrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. Distributed Capitalism...
1. eliminate corporate citizenship

2. require all corporations doing business in this country to maintain 51% perpetual voting ownership of those business interests by the domestic workforce. Retiring workers retain their interest as a part of their pension requiring companies to buy back a portion of stock and redistribute to new workers in order to maintain the work force 51% ownership (companies seeking maximum capitalization potential might offer premium buy-backs to retiring employees). The remaining interest can be used to raise capital

3. eliminate all taxes on citizens and transfer to:

  • a transfer tax on all financial transactions: an $11 trillion economy averaging, say a turn-over rate of 2-1/2 times per annum (just making it up) = $27-1/2 trillion in transactions taxed at .055 on the dollar less the opportunity loss on succeeding transactions caused by the tax with a 3% average annual growth rate yields roughly $1.5 trillion in tax revenue. I'm no economist so this may be a little crude but you get the idea.
  • a corporate profits tax of, say, 15% on all companies exceeding $12mm gross revenue per annum. Not sure of the yield but let's say its $1.5 trillion.
  • add some environmentally protective excise taxes (water pollution, water usage, carbon usage, fuel efficiency) and a spattering of import duties and fees for fair trade purposes.

4. require a super majority (60%) stockholder's vote (remember, employees retain 51% voting ownership) before a facility is moved or closed.

Just a thought...

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
14. Well, we have a couple of must-do's before we can get anywhere with
this or similar ideas (a just and healthier economy). NUMBER #1 PRIORITY: Throwing these Bushite corporations--Diebold and ES&S--out of our election system! The fascists now have a lock on vote tabulation with TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code, in the new, electronic election theft machines. No reform is possible--and we can't even get common decency in government--without TRANSPARENT, VERIFIABLE elections. There is no saving this electronic voting system. It is rotten to the core. We need to go back to PAPER BALLOTS, HAND-COUNTED, until all the corrupt election officials are rooted out (then we can look at our options--such as electronic voting, with strong audits, using OPEN SOURCE code). As long as our votes are being "counted" under a veil of corporate secrecy (a very new phenomenon, 2002-2004, engineered by the biggest crooks in Congress, Tom Delay and Bob Ney), we can't even REGULATE corporations, or tax them fairly, let alone deconstruct the mega-corporate model. (*See below for November protest via Absentee Ballot voting.)

If and when we DO reclaim our election system for democracy, and begin to elect true representatives of the American people, then I think--given what has happened over the last six years (and the leadup to it, through the Reagan "era of greed")--we need to be much more aggressive. We need to push back hard. For instance,

--dismantling the worst of the bad actors among the mega-corporations, and seizing their assets for the public good; this is our right as a sovereign people, and they know it (that's WHY they took away our right to vote!).

--dismantling all of the war profiteering corporate news monopolies, and (possibly by Constitutional amendment) banning all private money in political campaigns, providing a percentage of the federal budget for candidate access to voters, and reclaiming some of our public airwaves for political debate.

--a 90% cut of the military budget, down to a true defensive posture (what is this huge war machine FOR, except to tempt fascists to start corporate wars?).

--with the funds from busting up big corporations, and from the big reduction in military spending, first of all, start-up a thousand new, small, competing alternative energy businesses, with the mission of quick, 5-year, complete conversion to alternative energy; also fund universal health care and whatever else we need.

--dismantle the prison-industrial complex, spend the money (billons and billions!) on more wholistic handling of all non-violent offenders; consider decriminalizing all drugs; eliminate capital punishment (cp is a very brutalizing, "might makes right" message sent throughout our society).

Small, competing, cooperative businesses is a great goal. But we have first to deal with a shitload of corruption, unparalleled in human history, brought about by Corporate Rule. These Corporate Rulers can and will kill (and have killed) all competing smaller businesses. THAT is one of the critical problems. But you cannot create conditions for a better, more democratic, and truly competitive business environment while these behemoth corporations are still lording it over everything and everyone. As I said, AGGRESSION is needed--a really tough policy of the dismantling the worst, strongly regulating the others, and using the tax code to even things out. Further, we need to get rid of this legal loophole by which corporations have gained eternal life, as well as civil rights. With PERMANENT corporations, the corporations amass huge wealth and property over time, and have used that wealth to entirely undermine and destroy our democracy. In the old days, corporations were TEMPORARY consortiums of businesspeople to accomplish some purpose for the common good (like building roads or a bridge, or providing the country with sewing machines.) The Founders NEVER INTENDED for corporations to have eternal life, or to become these giant influences. They would be appalled at what has happened, and would be the first to call for a revolution against them. It is the corporations who are King George now (not George Bush--their front puppet).

How do we restore our right to vote (and prevent a bloody revolution, which is surely going to come, if things continue this way)?

I think people are pretty fed up, but don't know how to effectively protest. I'm pushing an Absentee Ballot protest for November. AB voting is not "safe," but it IS a PROTEST, and it could be huge. (It's up to 50% in Los Angeles already.) If enough people do it, we can bring this new election theft system down. (What good are these election theft machines, if nobody will vote on them?) A 60% or 70% Absentee Ballot vote, nationwide, would be a remarkable "vote of no confidence" in this rigged election system. It would be a major rebellion, and would pave the way for more reform of the election system, and for other reforms.

Bumper sticker: "Bust the Machines--Vote Absentee!"

We've got to start somewhere. I say start now, this November, with the huge monkey-wrench of Absentee Ballot voting, to the rigged election system.

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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-19-06 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
16. Good points....

not all corporations have to behave in an evil manner if they are owned by the right people. I would be careful with the "like commmunism" comments, though, in the current political climate.
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