What I loved about DU

[KurtNYC]

What I loved about DU when I first discovered it was that in the course of reading a good thread you could learn something. If someone made a faulty argument - it was pointed out. If they cited faulty facts or research, someone else would counter with other facts and research. Posters stated opinions to be sure, but they usually tied them to some facts and even if you didn't agree with their opinion, you had to evaluate and, if they were valid, integrate the facts they presented into whatever YOUR opinion and set of facts were.

I have been looking for threads which bring some facts to light in the current Israel/Hezbollah conflict but what I keep finding is simply threads that seem to argue that one side or the other:
- is more responsible, or is solely responsible, for the conflict
- is more immoral in their tactics or targets than the other
- has created a biggger mess as evidenced by the picture taken of it
- has earned some sensationalistic name ("terrorist")

Given that this conflict is taking place in what is arguably the most disputed territory in the history of the planet, I want to know more about all of the groups involved and the dynamics of the region. Eg. Hezbollah, Hamas, the IDF, the Lebanese, the Syrians, the Bahai's (in Haifa), etc.

Would much appreciate anyone pointing me to threads that discuss facts and dynamics (background, context) of the current conflict.

[everythingsxen]

1. I tried that...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1669715&mesg_id=1669715

No one here cares though. Now you are allowed to check only one box below:

1) Zionist

OR

2) Anti-semite

You are no longer allowed any other opinion, apparently.

[KurtNYC]

5. That is good stuff

I studied Iran's recent history (1900 - 1980) in college and went in depth on how Western countries (UK and US) have worked to reshape the region. It takes relatively little to keep a region in conflict and therefore unable to fully exploit the resources that are under their soil.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SidDithers]

15. I agree, but I thought the boxes were...

you're either a supporter of:

1) Israel

or

2) The Terrorists


Sid

[bloom]

2. I don't know about threads

but http://www.juancole.com/ seems like the best source if you are looking for information.


You could always start a thread with some of his writings. Sometimes people post them in Editorials.

[MoseyWalker]

3. So much emotion involved

that any facts are lost in the discussion. I've dug and found some pearls of wisdom on these threads, but it is so easy for them to get lost in the wasteland of emotional expression.

If anyone had a solution to the situation in the ME, it would have happened by now. It hasn't because there is, and will always be, such huge emotion poured into any discussion. I'm not even close to figuring out placement of blame for what's happened this past week. I do see buildings and neighborhoods destroyed - on both sides. I see people being killed - once again including children - on both sides. I see a bunch of heads talking, but nothing constructive happening. I see the US apparently holding up the cease fire process and pointing fingers everywhere.

I would be willing to bet that this thread will be filled with knowledgeable people providing information and links by the time I get through typing.

[The_Casual_Observer]

4. Might be that this one is beyond logic and reason.

Two sides that believe they are righteous.

[KurtNYC]

7. Much of what war involves is beyond reason

I am reminded of MLK Jr's:

In international conflicts the truth is hard to come by, because most nations are deceived about themselves. Rationalizations and the incessant search for scapegoats are the psychological cataracts that blind us to our sins.

http://www.benfrank.net/nuke/mlk-vietnam_speech_audio.html

[Cerridwen]

6. Thanks for this. I posted a similar inquiry in another thread.

I hope you get some fact filled responses to this and I hope I receive the same in response to mine.

I'm curious about the history of issues.

K & R

[Norquist Nemesis]

8. Unfortunately, I don't think you're going to find any

Even trying to read up on the "history" of it always has a bias, it seems, so you have to go back and read twice the amount (both sides) to try and get information about any of it.

One thing about Hezbollah and Hamas. Yes, they are terror organizations. However, they also provide humanitarian aid to the population. When the Palestinians voted in Hamas, it wasn't a statement of "wiping Israel off the face of the Earth" as much as against a corrupt PLO that wasn't performing those things the society needed (food, medicine, etc.). I doubt they expected Israel to cut off funding, democratically elected officials and all of that.

Can anyone provide some (reliable) information on Israeli organizations that have been providing aid to Palestinians? (serious question)

[uppityperson]

10. Keep looking, keep skimming, keep ignoring, they are there

Yes, there is a lot of what you summarize (good summary too), but there are posters who care to discuss scattered throughout DU. It takes a lot of time to skim through threads to find them, and a lot of practice at ignoring those who want to restate their opinions vehemently. I will be checking back in here to see if any particular threads show up as I am interested in this also but fear that I will have to continue skimming and ignoring.

[mzteris]

11. maybe they should give us our own group

like the For NEITHER SIDE group or something.

[mzteris]

12. some history

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761588322/Arab-Israeli_Conflict.html

Better on the "old history" than the newer - also click the links. It did give me some historical perspectives. (Note: I haven't read this in a several years - though it still "looks" the same as when I first read it.)

[applegrove]

13. Time Magazine did a good piece on it. Talked about Hizbollah and

how half the Lebanese wanted to disband them and replace them with a Lebanese National Army.

Try reading that.

[bigtree]

14. it's nearly impossible to find a history of the conflicts without bias

I do resent the implication that because some posters here hold viewpoints or have targeted posts that that shows some shallowness or must be some sort of misinformation. I suggest you go ahead and read through the various viewpoints and come to your own conclusion. That's the true function of a discussion board.

[theHandpuppet]

16. DUer dmesg contributed some interesting posts here

Including a book recommendation.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1671238

[theHandpuppet]

19. May I also recommend this post by Jacobin?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1671238&mesg_id=1672550

Fascinating stuff.

[SlipperySlope]

17. Can't convince anybody of anything.

While I know that the terrorists in Lebanon have the sole and exclusive responsibility for current events in the area, I agree with you that photographs prove nothing. A dead body is a dead body, and I don't let myself be manipulated so easily.

[SoCalDem]

18. Multiple news sources, and a skeptical analysis is all I can suggest

Sadly, I do not see ANY "fair" resolution to the middle east "problem"..

It all reminds me of a large family, fighting over an estate...(only with weapons)..

Everyone "knows" with a white-hot certainty that the dearly departed wanted THEM to have everything.