So what's the score? Israel 200, Hezbollah 2?

[The Backlash Cometh]

Is anybody keeping a casualty count?

[Mass]

1. For god's sake, this is not a score. There are human people on both

sides.

This said, there are about 20 Israelis killed and 240 Lebaneses.

[The Backlash Cometh]

6. Thanks for the update

It took months before we got an update on the Iraqi casualties, thought I'd ask early this time.

[EFerrari]

8. You forgot the Canadians. How did that happen? n/t

[Mass]

10. They are counted in the Lebanese numbers, but does that make

a difference.

Are they more or less human beings because they are Canadians?

[EFerrari]

13. I thought we were counting. And I don't know Canadians

well enough to have an opinion except the half of mr sfex that seems to be Canadian but is probably Irish that just buzzed Canada.

/re

[tocqueville]

2. no it's more 200/20

it's the usual ratio ten to one. The same than in Iraq.

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. I guess I was referring to the "kill" numbers.

But, yes, the casualty rates would be the reverse.

[leftchick]

3. Lebanese civilian deaths are at least at 270

Israeli deaths at 25 I think with half being IDF.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5193662.stm

[The Backlash Cometh]

9. So Hezbollah is attempting to strike at military targets?

[eyl]

17. Not really n/t

[EFerrari]

19. They just got lucky 12 times? Or is it that you can't swing a cat

without hitting IDF?

[Igel]

40. Some were in the initial kidnapping,

when a few IDF troops were killed in the initial attack in Israel, and others killed as they chased Hezbollah across the border. People keep saying it's all about 2 soldiers as though they were chloroformed while dozing at their posts, but it's about two soldiers kidnapped from Israeli soil during an attack that killed yet other soldiers.

A couple IDF soldiers were killed when IDF went in to fight Hezbollah overnight (from my perspective, in Houston).

Hezbollah targeted the IDF in the first raid, and by inclusion targeted IDF when they shot the ship. Otherwise, 'targeted' overestimates any intent or capability by Hezbollah.

[EFerrari]

41. Thanks for the clarification. n/t

[The Stranger]

20. From those numbers, it would appear neither side is targetting military.

Are we supposed to take a military man's word on it?

[INDIA]

29. I disagree

If Israel used its arsenal in the same manner that Hezbolla does, the death toll would be 10,000 plus easily. There is no doubt that the IDF is picking and choosing targets to limit civillian deaths, instead of Hezbolla's plan of "killing as many Jews as possible."

[leftchick]

31. whole apartment dwellings being demolished is picking & choosing

thanks for clearing that up.

[INDIA]

32. Neither you or I..

are members of Israeli intelligence. Given Hezbollas tendency to hide weapons and fighters among the civilian population, I find it likely that each target has a real reason for being engaged. That is not to say that innocents are not being killed, they regrettably and most certainly are.

Do you really think IDF officers are picking and choosing random apartment buildings to blow up just to kill innocent Lebanese? If you do, you need to get back to reality. If Israel employed Hezbollahs tactics and ideology, Lebanon would be uninhabitable. The IDF is a very potent military force, they are holding back. This is modern warfare, the casualties are MUCH lighter than anything you would see in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, or any other of the Israel/Arab wars, none of which Israel provoked, (unless you count existing as a provocation).

Meanwhile for the past 6 years, Hezbolla and their buddies have been sending rockets over the border almost daily attempting to kill anything Jewish.

Israelis are a politically accepting and progressive bunch, Muslims, Christians, Black Israelites and just about anyone else can live freely in Israel without fear of persecution. Most Israelis don't want war, they just want to exist. The fact that 80% of Israelis want this campaign to continue says something to me. I don't live there, neither do you. I'll take their collective opinion as a sign that this campaign is justified, just like most Democratic Senators and Congressmen do.

[leftchick]

33. blah blah

blech :puke:

I heard the same bullshit when the US bombed the crap out of Iraqi Hospitals, schools and ambulances and destroyed Fallujah to save it.

[TahitiNut]

34. Ditto.

(sigh) Pitiful.

[INDIA]

39. "blah blah blech"????

What an intelligent and well thought out argument! Thanks for your insight!

BTW, there is no comparison to our illegal invasion of Iraq and this action by Israel. Totally bunk comparison. Thanks anyway though.

I would expect more from someone like yourself who posts here so often. Pretty lame.

[leftchick]

48. totally bunk?

please spare me your righteousness. I hear enough of that from the warmongers in DC. There is absolutely a very valid comparison to The US Illegal ATTACK on Iraq. The shock and awe going on all over Lebanon is as illegal as the US incursion on a defenseless country. At this point Israel has not invaded for too long. Once they finish off bombing the crap out of the south and killing everone off I am sure they will become illegal occupiers again.

:puke:

[INDIA]

50. I'll ignore the majority of your post..

which I disagree with and focus on one point you made.

"Once they finish off bombing the crap out of the south and killing everone off I am sure they will become illegal occupiers again."

When Israel left southern Lebanon in 2000, Hezbollah moved in and almost immediately set up their own little autonomous terrorist shangi-la. They became the government, gaining the support of the locals, and almost immediately began frequent rocket attacks on northern Israel. The Lebanese government ( at the time a puppet of Syria) completely allowed this to happen.

The point of the Israeli "occupation" as you put it, was to put a buffer zone between Israelis living in the north and murderous religious fanatics trying to kill them. The minute Israel graciously gave back the land, Hezbolla took over and began trying to kill as many Jews as possible with LIMITED range rockets that were much less effective on killing innocent citizens with the buffer zone in place.

Is it really an illegal occupation if the sole purpose is to protect your country from attacks? They weren't building huge cities, stealing oil or trying to convert the Lebanese to Judaism, it was a buffer zone, plain and simple. And guess what? As Hezbollah has been proving for the last couple years and especially lately, IT WAS COMPLETELY NECESSARY AND JUSTIFIED. Israel in Lebanon=Less rocket attacks, less Hezbollah power. Israel out of Lebanon=Many rocket attacks, more Hezbollah power.

Just because something is illegal (and that is debatable) doesn't mean is isn't ethical or moral. If you had to break a law to keep your family safe, wouldn't you do that?

[earthside]

4. Ten-to-One

According to Robert Fisk on Democracy Now! this morning, 25 Israelis have been kill and almost 250 Lebanese.

Of course, we don't know how many Hezbollah militamen have been killed.

But watch the mainstream media and you'll get the idea that the only damage being done ... is in Israel.

[The Backlash Cometh]

12. Mainstream media seems to forget that we have a strong

Lebanese-American population in the U.S. Isn't Tony Shalub of Lebanese descent? Didn't he just make a made for t.v. movie where something similar to this happened?

[Mass]

16. No, they show both sides, but they humanize the Israeli side while

keeping the Lebanese people as an abstract entity and numbers.

[jonnyblitz]

21. exactly. nt

[malaise]

24. MSM is doing real 'good'

Their non-stop lies and spin are waking up the sheeple. Go MSM - you will be torn down with your fascist leaders. They're almost redundant as I type. Oh I forgot! Fugg MSM.

Gr.

[The Backlash Cometh]

44. I heard this woman on MSNBC say atleast six times in ten minutes

"They bombed Nazareth the place where Jesus Crist was born." I was wondering if she was single-handedly trying to bring on Armageddon.

[INDIA]

30. I've seen...

The same picture of a bombed out Lebanese street at least a dozen times. I have to disagree. To be fair though, most journalists are probably reporting from Israel since it's a hell of a lot safer to have some loonies with rockets firing at you than the IDF.

[MannyGoldstein]

5. Including Suicide Bombings?

Including suicide bombings or not?

[The Backlash Cometh]

15. Since Hezbollah took the two Israeli soldiers.

[Jacobin]

11. It's July Madness

and there are many more games to be played. Still waiting to see who the Final Four will be.

Just stay tuned to ESPN, er, CNN for the latest

[leftyladyfrommo]

14. I know, I know. I wonder how pathetic it will get and then it just

gets worse.

[DemonFighterLives]

18. With the ratio 10/1

The only sympathy on the TV is for Israel.
What an upside down world this is under condi and dubby non-diplomacy.
:argh:

[The Backlash Cometh]

45. In fairness, there was one guy from the Washington Post (I think)

who was allowed to report and he stated that Israel had bombed an upscale neighborhood which usually sides with Israel. Mennonite Christians, I think they were?

[The Stranger]

22. I think they should call it a TKO. This is a massacre.

Uh oh. Now I've done it. I used the word "massacre." :scared:

[The Backlash Cometh]

46. I think there are too many people who don't really see the casualties

as people. Hence, the purpose of my subject header.

[Ian David]

23. Oh, go play someplace else. n/t

[Perky]

25. Lets not forget the few thousands murders that Hezbollah has

committed thtough it's bombing campaign and let's not forget that it was a Hezbollah cross-border raid that killed 8 soldiers and took two hostage that began this mess.

I am not seeking to absolve Israel. I never want to see innocents killed on either side...but to suggest this is lopsided is historically inaccurate and certainl disengenous.

[hfojvt]

35. you need to go further back

plus the bombing has not been that effective and Israel has answered every rocket attack with shelling of their own. I tried to put a timeline together using DU's I/P forum, but it probably goes back indefinitely.

Ehud Olmert: the hawk in dove's clothing Jun 12
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x127500

Honeymoon is off: Hamas military wing calls off Israel truce Jun 9
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=127111&mesg_id=127111

"Hamas' military wing said Friday it would no longer honor a truce with Israel following an Israeli artillery strike that killed seven civilians."

"Israel and the Palestinians declared the truce in February 2005. Hamas, which has killed scores of Israelis in suicide bombings, has largely abided by the cease-fire."


Jun 8 (ad infinitum)
"Palestinians fired at least six Qassam rockets at Sderot yesterday morning, lightly wounding one woman and sending another into shock.
Two of the rockets landed in the Negev town and the others hit open areas nearby, including near a gas station, causing some damage.
The Israel Defense Forces responded to the rocket fire with a massive artillery barrage at the northern Gaza Strip.
No Palestinian casualties were reported."

Jun 7
"Hamas is directly responsible for firing Qassam rockets at Sderot, defense officials said Tuesday. As a result, for the first time after a long hiatus, Israeli officials threatened to attack Hamas members.
The Israel Defense Forces have generally refrained from targeting Hamas operatives since the Palestinian group committed to maintaining a security "lull" in the territories about 18 months ago.
The escalated Israeli tone comes as Fatah is fighting Hamas and the Popular Resistance Committees in the streets of the Gaza Strip.
Palestinians fired at least six Qassam rockets at Sderot on Tuesday, lightly wounding one woman and sending another into shock. Two of the rockets hit houses in the Negev town."

Jun 6
"Qassam rockets fired from the Gaza Strip struck a house and an area beside a school in the Negev town of Sderot Tuesday morning, hours after an Israel Air Force missile strike in the northern Gaza Strip killed two Palestinians involved in rocket fire."

Jun 5
"Three Israelis suffered injuries during violent incidents in the West Bank over the holiday, and two Qassam rockets landed in Sderot, damaging two vehicles.
Early Thursday morning, during an operation in Jenin, two roadside bombs exploded next to an IDF vehicle. Two soldiers in the vehicle suffered minor injuries and were evacuated to Haemek Hospital in Afula for treatment. "

Jun 5
"At least four Palestinians were killed late Sunday night as a result of gunbattles between Hamas and Fatah loyalists which raged in Gaza City and Khan Yunis.
Palestinian gunmen shot dead a pregnant Palestinian woman and wounded her husband and his brother, a Hamas militant, in a shooting incident in the southern Gaza Strip on Sunday, hospital sources said.
Witnesses said gunmen, whose identity was unclear, shot at local Hamas leader Mohammad al-Ghalban as he was traveling in a car with family members after dark in the town of Khan Younis."


Jun 3
Israeli troops have raided a hospital in the West Bank city of Nablus, and arrested an injured Palestinian militant said to be seriously ill.
Last Updated: Friday, 2 June 2006, 12:23 GMT 13:23 UK
Reports said the man had been shot in the stomach during clashes with Israeli forces in the area earlier this week.
The hospital director said the operation to seize the man had violated all principles of humanitarian ethics.

Jun 2
"RAMALLAH, West Bank (Reuters) - Palestinian Finance Minister Omar Abdel-Razeq proposed on Wednesday cutting thousands of government workers and selling off government investment assets in a bid to avert financial collapse."

Jun 1
BEIRUT: Israeli warplanes Sunday bombed bases of a pro-Syrian Palestinian group in Lebanon, including positions near Beirut, after militants fired a rocket salvo deeper than ever before inside the Jewish state.
Six Palestinian fighters were wounded, three of them seriously, and an Israeli soldier was slightly injured in the tit-for-tat attacks, according to the Israeli military and Lebanese police.
The air force raided two bases of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC), while Israel (I am not sure if they mean Israel or Lebanon here) angrily announced it would lodge a complaint with the United Nations.
Israeli fighter bombers swooped several times to fire 15 missiles at a base in Sultan Yaacub, causing the casualties, said police. They then targeted a base in Naameh that comprises a network of underground tunnels and has been the target of several past Israeli air strikes.

The bombing of the base, located near the busy highway linking Beirut to southern Lebanon, triggered traffic jams and panic among motorists, police said.

Earlier, militants in south Lebanon fired several Katyusha rockets towards an army base in northern Israel, wounding a soldier and causing damage, said an Israeli army spokeswoman. The rocket salvo hit a base near Safed, 20 kilometres south of the international border with Lebanon.

May 28
"But during the height of the harvest, from January until now, Israel frequently closed the main cargo crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip because of what it said were continuous security threats from Palestinian terrorists. In April, for example, two cars of gunmen attacked the Karni-crossing terminal before they were thwarted by Palestinian security forces."

May 31, 2006

"JERUSALEM — Israel on Tuesday made its first military incursion deep into the Gaza Strip since withdrawing from the seaside territory last summer, sending special forces backed by a helicopter gunship to ambush a squad of rocket-firing Palestinian militants.

Four Palestinians were killed and about six were wounded in an intense predawn exchange of fire that lasted more than an hour and occurred nearly two miles inside Gaza.

At least three of those killed were members of a cell from the Palestinian militant group Islamic Jihad, the Israeli army and Palestinian medical officials said."

Jul 14
NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, of course, I have no inside information, other than what's available to you and listeners. What's happening in Gaza, to start with that -- well, basically the current stage of what's going on -- there's a lot more -- begins with the Hamas election, back the end of January. Israel and the United States at once announced that they were going to punish the people of Palestine for voting the wrong way in a free election. And the punishment has been severe.

At the same time, it's partly in Gaza, and sort of hidden in a way, but even more extreme in the West Bank, where Olmert announced his annexation program, what’s euphemistically called “convergence” and described here often as a “withdrawal,” but in fact it’s a formalization of the program of annexing the valuable lands, most of the resources, including water, of the West Bank and cantonizing the rest and imprisoning it, since he also announced that Israel would take over the Jordan Valley. Well, that proceeds without extreme violence or nothing much said about it.

Gaza, itself, the latest phase, began on June 24. It was when Israel abducted two Gaza civilians, a doctor and his brother. We don't know their names. You don’t know the names of victims. They were taken to Israel, presumably, and nobody knows their fate. The next day, something happened, which we do know about, a lot. Militants in Gaza, probably Islamic Jihad, abducted an Israeli soldier across the border. That’s Corporal Gilad Shalit.

[RB TexLa]

26. score? I guess Germany won then?

disgusting.

[The Backlash Cometh]

49. So you're suggesting that Israel has the right to bomb innocent

Lebanese because of what the Germans did to their forefathers?

[RB TexLa]

51. No, I was saying by your way of keeping "score" the Germans would

have won WWII based on numbers killed. Just thought your little scoreboard was a bit disgusting.

[The Backlash Cometh]

52. Oh, I happen to think it's disgusting too. But most Americans, the kind

that vote Republican, don't even bother to look at the numbers, at all. In fact, to them, the more the merrier.

[Balbus]

27. Israel: 7 million

People in the areas surrounding Israel that would like to see them wiped from the face of the earth: 350 million

[The Backlash Cometh]

42. The Lebanese are responsible for the seven million?

Link please.

[INDIA]

28. What a disgusting post. n/t

[htuttle]

36. Meanwhile, over 600 have been killed in Iraq's civil war the last 6 days..

...but you have to turn to page 12 to read about OUR OWN occupied territory:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1672994

on edit:

I was incorrect. It wasn't on page 12. It was actually on page 16...

[The Backlash Cometh]

47. Do you have any idea why the MSM picked the kidnapping of two

Israeli soldiers to identify as the reason for this latest battle?

[blonndee]

37. Who's winning? The profiteers of the war machine. Everyone else

is losing, and how.

[ladjf]

38. Israel:Almost total destruction of the Lebanese civil infrastructure,

several hundred deaths, un tallied number of injuries. Hezbollah:Maybe 12 deaths, more injuries, zero
strategic damage to Israel.

If Lebanon and Palestine are able to recover within ten years, Israel will find another pretext to bomb them back for another ten years.

[bridgit]

43. israel will tell you, her blood is measured by the droplet...