Dancing the Middle East Two-Step

[DancingBear]

Yes, it’s the newest dance craze in town, kids. All the neo-cons and true patriots are doing it, and you wouldn’t want to be left out now, would you? Of course not, so come on along and be the envy of your block. As long as that block is not in Lebanon, and as long as people there can still walk, then you can learn these easy steps are sure as you can say “shit” with a mouthful of dinner roll. Here we go.

First off, spin around in a circle and say “they started it.” By spinning around in a circle, “they” can be almost anyone. Perfect. It’s the ever-evolving, ever-widening blame game, and you have 360 degrees of culprit! Yee-haw. Lebanon, Hezbollah, Syria, Iraq, Hamas, Egypt, Turkey, Putin, Iran, Clinton, gay marriage, vegetarians – well, you get the drift. If done correctly, and by spinning at just the right tempo, the culprits will morph into a bright yellow car magnet, which as we all know allows you to Kill For Jesus and Support Our Troops while ordering Chinese take-out. Hell, if THAT ain’t a win/win I don’t know what is.

Next, do a little math. Compare the number of dead Lebanese vs. the number of dead Israelis, then rationalize the disparity by saying that “Israel has the right to defend itself.” Do NOT take into account the fact that civilian targets in Lebanon are being bombed with Shock and Awe, The Sequel in response to the taking of TWO soldiers, which was in response to the taking of other prisoners, which was in response to the shooting of other civilians, which was in response to <insert “goes on forever” here>. Do NOT take into account that the Lebanese people are not all Hezbollah, for this introduces shades of grey, and that does not work with bright yellow.

We’re almost done – all we have to do now is define one side as completely right, and the other side as completely wrong. This is very easy – just pick the guys that are on our side. If you have any doubts, just listen to the guys on AM radio – they know all about it, so much so that they even have talking points at the ready. Do not make the mistake of looking at the carnage, or of seeing the pictures of the dead bodies. If that should happen, just turn up the radio.

Finally, if anyone dares to question the way you dance, make them do the You're An Anti-Semite Boogie until their knees bleed. That’ll show ‘em.

[uppityperson]

1. very good, thank you DancingBear

[AlamoDemoc]

2. Well put....I like it

[Boojatta]

15. What's the point of simply cheering?

I was hoping this thread would spark some discussion.

[daydreamer]

3. Excellent.

[MADem]

4. Well, Hizb'Allah are a bunch of crazy, fundie, shitheads

So I have no sympathy for them. They've terrorized the multi-religious government of Lebanon, infiltrated and infested the Army, and if you think they'll make life better for the average Lebanese, think again.

They are an arm of the black-turbaned Iranian mullahs; you know, those guys who hang gay teenagers in the public square....those guys who have young girls STONED to death for kissing a fellow. Those guys. Not warm and fuzzy.

For the life of me, I can't fathom all of this support for these murderous bastards. Israel may overstep at times, but they're actually doing a service to the people of Lebanon, who, in the south, have had to put up with these bums way more than they should have to--it's like a private army, answerable to Iran, not the state. If these guys aren't crushed, they will keep this shit up, and all of the money we (yes we, America, and other nations around the world as well) have poured into Beirut to get her up and running again will be all for naught.

If left to metastasize under the loving thumb of the Hizzies, Lebanon could turn into a People's Theocracy (and you Christians best convert or die) of the Shi'a persuasion in two shakes of a lamb's tail. That would be a crime.

[uppityperson]

5. save them by bombing them, those that are left will be happier for it?

ah.

[MADem]

7. No, wipe them out. Kill them. Get rid of them. They're bums.

Do you think the Christians and Sunni Muslims in Lebanon want to live under a Khomeini-style Islamic theocracy, instead of the multi-faith, cooperative government they have in place now?

That's the goal of these guys. Actually, the military arm has two goals:

--Take over Lebanon, create a shi'a theocracy modeled after Khomeini's Iranian creation.

--Push the Jews into the sea.

Sorry, I have not always approved of Israel's conduct, but in this case, I can't say as I blame them.

We don't know what intel they have; it seems like a lot of things are going BOOM in a BIG way when they drop a single bomb on it--weapons caches, perhaps???

And you'd think, if they were doing such FINE work, that someone in the Arab world would step up and say, three cheers, Hizzies! But no--Egypt, Jordan, and even SAUDI ARABIA have all said "Cut it OUT, you ASSHOLES!!!!"

Never mind the Monkey....look at what they are saying in the Arab world. The blame is on Hiz'b'Allah, here, and that is where it belongs.

[uppityperson]

8. again, save the civilans by bombing them? You do realize that's happening?

that many many Lebanese, NOT Hezbullah, have died, are running out of food, etc?

[MADem]

10. The only civilians who are hanging in the southern neighborhoods

are Hizzies and sympathizers. Anyone who could run, has, and anyone who hasn't, had better say their damn prayers...these folks have BEEN THROUGH THIS before. They know the drill.

And war sucks.

What would you have Israel do? Sit there and take missiles and rockets coming over their border? Allow their third largest city to be pummelled without response? Allow the supply line from Iran and Syria to continue uninpeded?

Where's your outrage at Hizb'Allah? Why aren't you mad that they are launching Katushya's from NEIGHBORHOODS, and GENERATING the Israeli response that outrages you so much???

I can't figure out what you are so mad about--Israel didn't start this shit up. Yet everyone is so outraged at Israel, because they have SIRENS and an early warning system, and thus their casualties are not as onerous.

Would you be happier if Hizb'Allah had a better "kill rate?" Would that make it OK????

Hizb'Allah are NOT freedom fighters. They are LEECHES on the Lebanese Democracy. They are the equivalent of a bunch of Fundie Pat Robertson types, forming an armed militia and taking over twenty percent of America. They are NOT mainstream. They want to turn Lebanon into a shia Islam, fundie theocracy. Screw the Sunnis, fuck the Christians.

They are NOT heroes. They are murderous bums. And they are doing Iran's work this week--what's everyone talking about?? Israel, NOT Iran, NOT Iranian nukes. When would have been a great time to talk about the Iranian nuke program? Why, at the G8! But damn, this shit got in the way, didn't it...

Clever bastards.

[uppityperson]

12. with all those kids on it that got bombed were Hizzie sympathizer?s

wow. I have nothing more to say to you.

[MADem]

13. No, their parents were though. And they were counting on dodging one

Where do you think these tens of thousands of rockets are HIDDEN?

In the Hizb'Allah armory??? Under lock and key??? PLEASE.

No, they're in homes, under beds, in schools, stacked in storerooms, in grain silos, in garages next to PETROL strations....they're being transported by AMBULANCE.

Just as well you have nothing more to say to me, because you clearly don't understand how the Hizzies operate. They could give a shit about those kids--they set up there using those kids and families as SHIELDS and counting on people like you not to see what sort of game they are playing. And you oblige them.

[Chulanowa]

16. Well I guess it's a good thing those kids are dead!

Just imagine the horror of them someday growing up and thinking Hezbollah are the good guys! Damn good thing THAT was nipped i nthe bud!

[MADem]

17. Well, an organization funded by a bunch of intolerant Ayatullahs

who believe it is their religious duty to hang gay people, beat women for infractions such as failing to be covered or talking to a male who is not a relative, for whom the punishment for female adultery is death....if those are "good guys" well maybe those kids are better off dead.

But that's not what I said. The shot was cheap but it missed the mark.

I find astounding that no one will admit what Hizb'Allah really is--the Pasaradan on steroids. And why people here in the US look up to them, and don't realize what crap they pull, how they intimidate the Christians and Sunnis, threaten people, and are a law unto themselves, who want to turn Lebanon into a Persian inspired theocracy....but, hey, they aren't ISRAEL, so they must be hunky dory!~!!

[Mojorabbit]

18. I don't think it has anything to do with hezbolla

It just seems weird to me that the palestinians and lebanon were starting to make baby steps with semi stable elected govts(more so for lebanon) and for some reason I don't think Israel wants that. Those new govts may with nuturing have provided some stability and with that perhaps some economic development, and then with that perhaps a lessoning of tension.

After all, employed people with something to live for are less prone to this type of violence. It would have taken time but neither govts were given a chance. I don't claim to understand but there is an underlying reason for this crackdown of both places and it doesn't have anything to do with the sporadic attacks which have been going on for eons. This is just my gut reaction. Something here just does not smell right.

[MADem]

19. Hez is FUNDED BY IRAN. By the Ayatullahs. They are a shi'ite fundie

outfit. They want to turn Lebanon into a shi'a theological state, and they have as their stated purpose the killing of all the Jews and the eradication of Israel.

The Israelis did NOT FIRE FIRST. The Hiz crossed their border, shot their soldiers, captured two of them, and then started raining rockets on Haifa.

Gaza is SUNNI Palestinians. HAMAS IS SUNNI.

Hizb'Allah are SHI'A Arabs AND Persians.

Most Sunnis look at Shi'a, especially the fanatical ones, like Episcopalians look at toothless, pointy headed snake handlers.

These two border situations are NOT linked.

Saudi Arabia supports HAMAS, but they think the Hiz are bastards. Egypt and Jordan have come down against them too.

[Mojorabbit]

21. I know all this

It is surface. The real goal is resources. Oil. Iran and syria need to be under our control before the pipeline is built that is on order with the China and Iran deal. The rest is cover.
I am looking beneath what is happening now. Lebanon had a chance with their fledgling democracy. Tourism was up. Infrastructure had been rebuilt. With time and prosperity Hezbollah's hold would have been reduced. This is to goad syria into war and then Iran.

Do you think Israel would have gone into Lebanon which was *'s showpiece democracy without his consent. There is a bigger prize. We don't give a damn that Iran is a shia totalarian state. We need their resources. It is all part of the chess game. You have seen the map posted here of our bases in the region. We are positioning for control of the remaining oil.
This is my opinion and what my gut tells me. You don't have to agree with me.

[MADem]

22. I don't disagree that we wouldn't want Iran's oil

But we don't wanna fight for it. We want to put Babyshah back in there. We do NOT have the troops to fight in Iran. We just don't. Absent a draft, we aren't marching in there. Time to bribe some Generals...and maybe poison a few old Ayatullahs.

Israel does whatever the hell Israel wants. We told them not to take the Golan, they did it anyway. They don't listen to US. They do what they need to do to protect their security. We put up with their independence because they are reliable--we can use them as a base of operations if need be, they are strategically located, and they are an ally.

I still don't understand, though, if, as you claim, this is such a great super-duper US-Israel plan, how the US and Israel conned Hizb'Allah, whose charter states that it wants to destroy Israel and push all the Jews into the sea, into instigating this entire battle by crossing the border, killing and capturing Israeli soldiers, and then firing thousands of rockets towards Haifa and points south. And doing it during the G8, when the topic was SUPPOSED to be the Iranian nuke program.

Hypnotism?????

[Mojorabbit]

24. I read that the gaza attack had been planned by Israel

months earlier. You can find the article on DU somwhere. I am sure there was also a plan to deal with hezbollah too waiting for when the time was right. I think we do have a lot of leverage with Israel. We can pull funding at any time, that is a lot of leverage. Heck they just asked us to pay their jet fuel bill for this war.

It is not a secret plan. It is laid out in the PNAC obliquely and there is a DOD report laying out what they expect to happen at peak oil and it is not pretty.

If you have been following the chess game of alliances between the oil producing countries and those who need the oil for the last ten years it is pretty obvious.
China and Chavez. China and Russia with Iran.A gazillion side deals with the "stans", pipelines in afghanistan. Pipelines being planned galore all over the region. The stakes are too high for us to let China or Russia get those pipelines. This is the big prize and we will do anything we can to
win it.

[MADem]

25. I think people connect Gaza and Lebanon AT THEIR PERIL

Gaza--Palestinians--Sunni--HAMAS.

Lebanon--Arabs and imported Iranians--Shi'a--Hizb'Allah.

The Saudis, who support Hamas, have told the Hizzies to KNOCK IT OFF, or else.

There's no love between the two sects. Al Quaeda calls shi'a cockroaches and apostates. The Saud Wahabbis call them worse.

It ain't all happy families in the Muslim world. The Hiz might have been emboldened by what happened in Gaza, but I do not think there was any deep coordination there. They're taking orders from Iran, and Iran is in the button-punching business this week.

They are two different issues.

But people who feel sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians think that the Iranian tools shooting rockets at Haifa give a shit about them. They don't. They just want to turn Lebanon into a shi'a state. They certainly want to drive the Jews to the sea, and ensure access to Jerusalem for the Islamic world.

To hell with the Lebanese Sunnis, though, to hell with the Lebanese Christians, and to hell with the Lebanese democracy. That's their goal. An Ayatullah-styled shi'a theocracy by the sea.

[Mojorabbit]

26. I think It is a proxy war

I don't know if bombing lebanon to smithereenes and completey destroying their infrastructure is being done to goad syria and iran. I suspect so. Israel has to know this will further destabilize the region. I am sure they have master strategists in their military and govt.
Unlike the US I think they have some sort of plan and it is probably a very good one.

A show of force would have been sufficient. Even if they razed Lebanon to the ground it would not destroy hezbollah and they know this. No, there is something else here. Perhaps they wish to force *'s hand with Iran.

It would take out a lurking danger to their security as well as further *'s plan for Iran. Win win for both. The administration here has been quick to blame both syria and Iran and they are culpable. Groundwork laid. Now all we need is an incident to light the match. We don't have enough troops now but if the incident is horrific enough and the public convinced we will have a draft. Half this country is ready to go to Iran as it is.
Perhaps this is why * is giving Israel more time. To see what might happen and if he can use it to further his aims. I don't know but I wouldn't rule it out. I just think there are more layers to this than what is on the surface. I could be totally off base but....
There is this too http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001538.php
and this
http://consortiumnews.com/2006/071706.html
and Israel has it's own oil problem
http://www.slate.com/id/2145704/ more pipelines

[MADem]

28. I think you have a point, that it is a proxy war

I think the Israelis have as their goal the pounding into the ground, decisively, forever and always, the military wing of Hiz'b'Allah. If they're smart, though, they'll take out that turbaned clown with the cartoon glasses, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, as their first priority, if they can find him. That guy is TROUBLE, as far as they are concerned...he makes Ayatullah Khomeini look like a minor annoyance. And he's YOUNG, too, relatively speaking (in his 40s) so he can be trouble for a long, long time...

By doing this, they hope to decrease the influence that Iran has in the affairs of Lebanon. But the only way they can do that decisively is to eliminate ALL of the militia leadership. It can't be a prisoner taking exercise. It's gotta be duel to the death.

Of course, without a military wing, Iran might be less motivated to support their political and charitable wings in Lebanon. On the other hand, they could always reconstitute, but if the Israelis hit them hard enough, they can make reconstitution a long, expensive and arduous process.

As for Israel moving forward aggressively in the region, they are really out of any other options. They live there. We're just visiting. Your link that discussed Israel's role (Clemons) is interesting. He theorizes that they are exercising power, though others have said that the reason for the bombing up north is because that's where all the longer range rockets, capable of hitting Tel Aviv, are sequestered.

History will tell, eventually...

[JCMach1]

20. Gee, so you offer unlimited support to right-wing militarist

and one might add violent regimes!!>?

Makes perfect sense to me :sarcasm:

[MADem]

23. Well, it's preferable to supporting a bunch of bigoted, fundie, racist

genocidal bastards that want to push a whole nation of people into the sea because of their religion. And who INITIATED the attack on these people.

Like Hizb'Allah are the Kumbayah crowd??? :sarcasm: indeed.

[lostnfound]

27. Human nature & opposite reactions

The only comment I would make is that the attacks on Lebanon are very likely driving the population of Lebanon in the direction of stronger support for Hizbollah.
People react emotionally in times of stress, and loyalties are built fast under siege, even with people you wouldn't ordinarily support or like.

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.." An army can become stronger by new recruits who feel that the army is standing up for them when bombs are falling. And the forces within Lebanese society that want to shut down Hizbollah are likely to be silenced. You might want them to think "Oh, if we get rid of Hizbollah, then Israel will stop attacking us." But human nature is that people will react in a different way, and Hizbollah will strengthen.

[MADem]

29. Valid point, which is why Israel needs to be decisive

They need to eliminate the military wing for their long term security. Not just weaken it, eliminate it. And I suspect that is why everyone is giving them room to move, to do exactly that. I also think Hizb'Allah is a bit surprised; I think they figured the international community would be stepping in by now and saying "Now, now, there, there, enough of this nonsense!!!" They might have done a bit too much playground double-daring.

If Israel succeeds in completely crushing the militia, Iran may not want to spend the money or the time to rebuild it. And if Iran pulls their dough out of the country, they need to find a substitute income stream from more moderate factions to fund the social services the shi'a are getting to this point from the charitable Hizzie wing.

[DELUSIONAL]

6. That just about covers it! Couldn't have explained it better myself.

This is the mother of all blood feuds -- to take a side is to be real stupid.

Yugoslavia -- that is another blood feud seved with religious fanatics on both sides.

[Boojatta]

9. "Next, do a little math."

Compare the number of dead Lebanese vs. the number of dead Israelis, then rationalize the disparity by saying that “Israel has the right to defend itself.”

Suppose 100 people had participated in the assassination of JFK. Isn't it possible that all 100 might have been tried, found guilty, and given the death penalty? Surely the government wouldn't say, "Well, you only killed one guy so we can only kill one of you guys. Otherwise there would be a disparity and we would have to rationalize."

[leftchick]

11. Oy!

:eyes:

[Boojatta]

14. Is it just a question of numbers?

Suppose that no Lebanese civilians had died as a direct result of Israeli military attacks. Suppose that Hezbollah had kidnapped hundreds of ordinary Lebanese and that for every member of Hezbollah killed by the Israeli military, Hezbollah were killing ten Lebanese hostages.

What would prevent you from saying the following?

Compare the number of dead Lebanese vs. the number of dead Israelis, then rationalize the disparity by saying that “Israel has the right to defend itself.”

Do you really think that an increase in the number of dead Lebanese benefits Israel?