It's clear that Israel violates no international law simply because it

[cantstandbush]

recognizes no international law except when it wants to try holocaust perps. So why should any Arab country worry about international law or sanctions in fighting back? The US also does not recognize international law or courts except when it wants to charge some trade violations. "What goes around comes around." Or, for the Christians out there, "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

[The_Casual_Observer]

1. My take on Israel

It is a place of endless grief, bombings, fear, and reprisal for reprisal. They can "win" all the 6 day wars they care to wage against the arabs and their multitude of other antagonists, but it changes nothing, it will never change.

[maxsolomon]

2. the dissolution of israel is a historical inevitability

it is not infinitely supportable - and i don't mean within 10 years, i mean 100 years from now.

demographically - overwhelmed by arab birthrate
territorially - a long, narrow strip between the sea & its enemies
financially - absent US financial support, it cannot maintain its militarized posture

jews will remain there, but eventually they will have to make an accomodation with islam. and vice versa. fanatics on both sides MUST be supressed.

another option is to internationalize jerusalem - a demilitarized UN protectorate. the religious tension over the temple mount must be removed.

i'm sure i'm wrong for an infinite number of reasons, but that's how i've felt for a while.

[Solo_in_MD]

4. Careful..your argument could be turned around into the

defensible borders theory, and used to justify permanent taking of Arab lands with the current residents being removed/displaced/diluted until they are manageable. For precedent, look at what England did to Scotland

[BillZBubb]

3. "it will never change"

Are you saying Israel will never change? Or the situation?

If Israel decided it REALLY wanted to live in peace and was prepared to give up ALL claims to land taken after the 1967 war, they could have real peace and security. Until that day, they will live under a black cloud.

[readmoreoften]

16. Do you really think that? I'm not sure. I used to think that.

I used to think that if Israel gave up control of its land grabs then they would be able to live in peace. But I wonder now if most of the neighboring Arabs nations (and now Persian nations) really do want to drive them into the sea. Iran's elected leader spouting "Elders of Zion" type Holocaust denial. I talk union politics with a lot of immigrants from the Middle East living in NYC, and I am roundly freaked out by their beliefs about Jews. When I tell them about the anti-worker actions of the NYC corporate managers, I am generally met with the response: "They are Jews, right?" or "Yes, the Jew Masters are a problem." (Of course, I tell them that the labor movement is heavily indebted to the hardworking Jewish socialists of the early 20th century.)

Don't get me wrong, I think that Israel's land grabs are wrong, their tactics are wrong, and that they have become what they hate (just like we in the US have become what we hate.) But I don't think that their Muslim neighbors (as nations, not people) are pure victims. Of course, I think that the citizens on both sides who are dying and cowering in fear in the corners of their rooms... they are most certainly victims.

[BillZBubb]

17. Yes, I really think that.

If Israel pulled back UNCONDITIONALLY to the 1967 borders, worked out a payment schedule to offset the "right of return" problem, and helped the Palestinians to establish a state, then Israel would begin to see real stability. It wouldn't happen over night. A lot of bad blood is out there and children on both sides have been raised to despise the each other.

But, an economically growing Palestianian state bordering Israel would be a huge incentive to the Palestinians to work peacefully with Israel. The end of the Palestinian grievances would take the wind out of the sails of the reactionaries in Iran and other places. Short term, there would still be a few fanatics carrying out terrorist attacks on Israel but in time those would end. A vast majority of the Palestinians would value freedom, prosperity, and peace over any desire to attack Israel. The nuts would be marginalized.

I also know this is the ONLY workable solution for Israel. Eventually the Arab demographics and the cost of maintaining such a large military machine will bring Israel down. They need to change their approach from the one that has FAILED for half a century to a way that will work.

[readmoreoften]

18. That's true. It would take the wind out of the sails of all the hatred.

Yes, I definitely agree that Israel needs to pull out of the West Bank and Palestine needs to be created. If Israel did the right thing, I'd be easier to support them, too. Your point makes a lot of sense.

[shadowknows69]

19. Problem is all the bad blood

has just been renewed to an order of magnitude.

[Solo_in_MD]

5. If you are going to say they are violating Intl Law, provide citations

Historically the IDF has followed the Geneva Conventions WRT to uniformed prisoners of war. There has been some statement recently about illegal weaponry, but nothing substantiated or independently verified. Some are claiming that the destruction of infrastructure (airfields, powerplants,...)is a violation but there is also room for considerable argument there. Proportionality is not in international law, mostly since it is so hard to define.

Note that this does not mean I am agreeing or supporting Israel, but claims such as yours need some rationale, lest they be dismissed as just more hyperbole.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. I hope

I hope the original poster isn't belittling the horror of the holocaust by dismissing the miscreants who carried it out as mere "holocaust perps".

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Tell me exactly what sectiion of Geneva is

violated when you attack a house where active combatants fired at you?

Then tell me what section of geneva is violated when you attack facilities known for their use as hubs for weapons transfers? FYI those formerly neutral sites (aka the airport) loose their neutrality.

In fact, if I am shot at FROM A HOSPITAL, I can fire back.

Care to dance on Geneva?

by the way these comments apply to ANY military in the field...

[burythehatchet]

8. You are correct that Geneva does not apply in many of these instances

but there is a higher law than Geneva that applies, it is the law of humanity. There are millions of aggrieved people who do not get a fair shake. They are not allowed to weaponize so they cannot wage a war in traditional terms. They apply whatever destructive means they can. If they discontinue doing what they are doing they are essentially stipulatin that the UN and Israel and the US will "do right" by them. That is a farce on its face.

The reason the fanatical elements exist is because they are expressing the will of the citizens who support them. While their rhetoric is monsterous, the beliefs of those whom they purport to represent have ligitimate grievances. Until/when those grievences are addressed, the fanatical elements will not have the support of the citizenry.

[The Magistrate]

9. The Law Of Humanity, Sir?

Thank you for the laugh on a hot day....

Judging by general practice over the years, that law would be compressed to "The strong do as they please; the weak weep as they must."

[burythehatchet]

10. You bet!

Hey I feel optimistic, I got the entire back yard done before the thunderstorm arrived.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Law of Humanity

and where exactly do you think Geneva comes from? There is a reason why it is called International Humanitarian Law

That said, Hezbollah (and other organizations across the world) refuse to accept Geneva, or other limits to warfare.

That said, other organizations like the FSLN did such. They were recognized by OTHER nations, beyond funding that is. and in the end they got what they wanted

Hezbollah and others benefit from this state of affairs, they crave it, and they know that they need bombs to come down to create the next generation

That said, you want this to stop? Stop ENABLING both sides. Recognize that BOTH sides are NOT right, and realize that Hezbollah in this case, would love to sink Lebanon into another civil war.

This is not just Isarel being nasty... but it is also Hezbollah being nasty. That said, the IDF will do what it needs to do under the contraints of international law, and if Hezbollah fires from a hospital, guess what, they will fire back. If Hezbollah uses clearly marked ambulances to transport troops, guess what that ambulance will be destroyed. It gives me no pleasure to write this, but it is both sides who are locked in conflict and both sides will have to live with the consequences of their actions.

That said, Israel DID PULL OUT of Lebanon... why has Hezbollah continued its campaign? Oh yes, to destroy Israel and throw the Jews to the sea... that is the kind of war you want? Is this humanitarian too? Is this following the law of humanity you speak off?

[burythehatchet]

12. You see the problem is that while Israel pulls out of Lebanon

nothing is put to rest until the core issue is resolved - Palestine. I don't imagine that the region would settle until the core issue is resolved.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. So you tell me the solution is what Hezbollah

and the most radical elements want, the destruction of Israel. Well then, if that is the objective, let the nukes fly... it is called MAD and Israel will do it. On the bright side the global warming problem will be taken care off for a little while.

[burythehatchet]

14. I'm sorry

I like your posts so I won't continue this discussion. It is not possible to see eye to eye when either or both parties lack objectivity.

Also, post 8 pretty clearly defines my "solution" or at least prognosis.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. I just took it to the extreme

Israel will do it, for this is the Samsom Option, the option nobody likes to talk about in polite compnay

I am objective, we must stop enabling BOTH SIDES, for both sides are wrong, and right... on the other hand, I fear you are not

I recomend one book, will explain this in plain English, War a Force that Gives us Meaning.