DU lawyers!!!! Please explain this to us!

[napi21]

Ken Lay was convicted in a jury trial. He was not sentenced yet when he died.

So many radio and TV shows are saying he is no longer a convicted criminal.

That makes no sense to me!

I can understand the deate about the feds being able to sue his estate, and how is it possible that he is no longer convicted because he died?

[Whoa_Nelly]

1. What's a "deate"?

:shrug:

[uppityperson]

4. debate

which is not what you put on de line when you try to catch de fish, but talking back and forth and back and forth, a civilized argument.

[Whoa_Nelly]

12. Ahhhh... I see!

de debate 'n' de civilized argument... (whew!)

[napi21]

5. Debate. Sorry, typing was never my forte. n/t

[dsc]

2. I am no lawyer

but from what I have read evidently since he signaled an intent to appeal and hadn't been sentenced yet, his conviction is nullified upon death. I do find this bizarre myself and hope to see some reasonable explanation.

[benburch]

3. That is the precedent in that appeals jurisidction.

It applies only to federal cases tried in that jurisdiction, and not to any other jurisdiction.

It makes no sense, but it *is* the way it works.

[napi21]

6. Insane to me! So how does this affect Skilling?

I've also heard the trial phase may have to start all over again because they were tried together!

[spindrifter]

8. Skilling goes forward to sentencing.

I don't know the federal guidelines re restitution, but in our state restitution is "joint and several," meaning if one fails to pay, the other is liable for the other's share, as well as his own. Not that that will probably mean anything. Skilling was convicted of fewer charges, so his restitution would be associated only with what he was found guilty of. Confusing, eh? The bit about having to start over would apply to an appeal IF, big "if" Skilling prevails on appeal. Somehow, I doubt there is reversible error.

[napi21]

10. Thanks! I happen to think Lay is now paying a much bigger price

than the courts could have imposed! It didn't make sense to me that Skilling could possibly benefit from Lay's death!

I have heard some sommentators say that his guilty verdict could be thrown out because they were tried together, and I'm glad to hear they were wrong!

[catlawyer]

7. NPR had a pretty good explanation

Heard this the other night:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5539129

I guess it can impact the government's claim on the estate?

[napi21]

9. Tha doesn't answer my question! All the should's and might's.

I've also heard some atty's on TV say it shouldn't matter.

Tonight, I heard that Lay's estate has no money left after all the expense of the trial. All there is is the properties, and the insurance payment his widow will get.

I understand the Feds shoudl not be able to touch the insurance proceeds, but they should be able to take the properties!

BTW, the insureance proceeds have been stated to be $9,000,000! That's million! Surely the poor widow can find another house for that much!

[happyslug]

11. In most states, you are NOT guilty till a Judgment is entered against you

All the JURY enters is a VERDICT, a finding of fact that someone committed a crime. Judgment of Conviction is done by a Judge given the verdict. The defense has the right to ask the Judge to through out the Verdict and either dismiss the case OR ask for a new trial. The Judgment is entered when a person is sentenced. In Pennsylvania our State Treasurer in the 1980s named R. Budd Dwyer, was convicted on bribery, prior to being sentenced he shot himself during a news conference. Under Pennsylvania law once CONVICTED he and his family lost their legislative pension. By committing Suicide BEFORE his sentencing he could NOT be "Convicted" even thought the verdict had been against him (He is No longer capable of Defending himself, thus can NOT be Convicted by the Judge). This saved his pension for his wife and children. (He was a Republican).

For more on Budd Dwyer:

R. Budd Dwyer (1939-1987) — of Pennsylvania. Born in St. Charles, St. Charles County, Mo., November 21, 1939. Member of Pennsylvania state house of representatives, 1965-70; member of Pennsylvania state senate, 1970; Pennsylvania state treasurer, 1985-87; died in office 1987. Baptist. Member, Eagles; Jaycees; Theta Chi. Convicted in December 1986 of bribery and conspiracy in federal court. About to be sentenced, and widely expected to resign from office, he called a press conference; there, in front of spectators and television cameras, he insisted he was not guilty, and then shot himself dead, in Harrisburg, Dauphin County, Pa., January 22, 1987. Interment at Blooming Valley Cemetery, Blooming Valley, Pa.

* Cross-reference: Robert B. Asher
* See also: Internet Movie Database profile.

http://politicalgraveyard.com/death/suicide.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Dwyer
http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/archive/oldnews/budd.htm


Video of the Actual Suicide:
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/belarus/651/warning2.html#

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

14. Hey Man Nice Shot.

Great song ain't it?

[happyslug]

16. I never listened to the Song, nor did I ever watch the Film

Sorry, I remember hearing about the Suicide and while I did not believe Dwyer was innocent, I had to respect him for killing himself WHEN THAT WAS THE BEST THING ECONOMICALLY FOR HIM TO DO FOR HIS FAMILY. It was disgusting that his family would have to suffer for his wrongs, but that what happens to most families of Criminals, their families often suffer more then the Criminal.

Dwyer's suicide was a sad case and I only posted it to further explain why Lay's death meant no Judgment on the Criminal Case will be entered against Lay as a result of Lay's death for it death means you can NO longer defend yourself in Court. I did NOT intend it to be something to rejoice over, even in a song.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

17. It's A Great Song Anyway, By Filter.

And who the fuck is rejoicing? I'm just acknowledging that Filter wrote a song inspired by his televised suicide that happens to be a rockin tune. Whenever I hear of Dwyer that's what I think of.

Hey Man Nice Shot:

wish I wouldve met you
Now its a little late
What you couldve taught me
I couldve saved some face
They think that your early ending
Was all wrong
For the most part theyre right
But look how they all got strong
Thats why I say hey man nice shot
What a good shot man
A man
Has gun
Hey man
Have fun
Nice shot
Now that the smokes gone
And the air is all clear
Those who were right there
Got a new kind of fear
Youd fight and you were right
But they were just to strong
Theyd stick it in your face
And let you smell what they consider wrong
Thats why I say hey man nice, nice shot
What a good shot man
A man
Has gun
Hey man
Have fun
Nice shot
I wish I wouldve met you
I wish I wouldve met you
Id say
Nice shot

[AtomicKitten]

13. A "legal type" explained to me that he hadn't exhausted his appeals.

Therefore, his legal team appealed to the court to vacate the verdict.

[SensibleAmerican]

15. Because his appeals were pending

n/t