Are ALL People In Mourning Deserving Of the Same Level Of Respect?

[DistressedAmerican]

Is Ken Lay's widow as deserving of our respect as the families of our fallen soldiers? How about the families of 9/11 victims?

If Cheney kicked and Bush was in mourning, should we allow him a respectful mourning period for his war criminal colleague?

Should we feel for Zarqawi's widow?

In short:
Does every person that has a death in their family deserve the same level of respect?

[NoSheep]

1. No. It's a no brainer.

[DistressedAmerican]

3. Apparently some don't agree.

[NoSheep]

12. I am so often....flaberghasted? Is that the word I'm looking for?

by some of the comments I see here. lol. You know the saying "If you aren't outraged, you aren't paying attention." That's how I feel about anyone who thinks Miz Lay deserves a pass. Perhaps a person who would take that position has ill-gotten gains of their own? That's the only reason I could see as a motivation for having such a position. Ignorant or guilty.

Go back and re-read your original post. You were pointing out obvious truths. Why a body can't see that...and WHY? anyone would compare your post to the exploits of Fred Phelps.... that's just insane. Really. You still haven't gotten an answer yet have you?

www.godhatesfags.com ....puleeeze

:nopity:

[DistressedAmerican]

28. Sure Haven't. Wish I Could Make That Comment My Sigline.

Not allowed though.

Distressed American is morally equilivilent to Freddie Phelps!

Literally stunning in its obvious ulterior motives. He has been attacking me here for a very long time from any angle he could think of. that was a pretty lame latest attempt.

Maybe he should go back to screaming about how I'm using DU to sell shit (when I sell next to nothing and make all of my work free for all to use). That went over a little better. Especially when he'd PM a shortlist of fellow DA haters to join him.

I am still waiting for his response. Franlky, if he ducks after that attack, we all know what his agenda is.

[NoSheep]

33. I'm going to try to search for a post I made one night that got such

an outrageous response. I vaguely remember it was the same author.

[hiphopnation]

55. the mistake seems to be that you conflate

allowing someone a moment to bereave the loss of a loved one and "allowing her a pass"
it's just a moment after all...it doesn't mean she's any less complicit or that I think she's any less deserving of contempt

the two sentiments peacfully coexist for me

[Bridget Burke]

2. I oppose demonstrating at funerals*

And I wouldn't abuse Ms Lay (or Ms Zarqawi) to her face.

But--snarking on the Internet? That's different.

* Of course, Lay will not have a funeral. There will be Memorial Services in Colorado & in Houston. He will be cremated & the ashes buried in Colorado. (Yellow snow?)

[NoSheep]

14. Wonder who's ashes they'll be....

[BOSSHOG]

4. Maybe sympathy and that would be determined by who is

offering the sympathy but I don't see where respect enters into the equation. I got a whole bunch of sympathy when my Dad died two years ago but I don't think anyone respected me any more or less or should have based on someone else's death.

[DistressedAmerican]

9. As In "To Pay Your Respects".

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

6. I don't know what they deserve.

But the bereaved are certainly not going to get equal treatment. Some will be used for propaganda, and some will not, for example. It's like getting impeached. One President is impeached for lying about a blow-job, and another is immune from impeachment despite one of the most disastrous presidencies in US history.

[NoSheep]

25. "Would somebody PLEEEZE give Bush a blow-job?"

[Hugin]

7. I'll let you know in 6 months...

When she shows up in some 'loid with a cabana boy. (or Ken himself)

[Coventina]

8. Nope, Ms. Lay collaborated with her husband to defraud thousands.

She gets nothing but "sucks to be you" from me.

[Solo_in_MD]

10. The grief of loved ones is not dependent on the actions of the deceased

The obvious answer to your question is yes, the loved ones should be respectfully accorded a reasonable and appropriate period to grieve. The grief of the mother of a executed murderer is no less genuine than that of the wife of innocent bystander caught in a terrorist act. It has nothing to do with the what their loved one did while alive. This is different than respecting the deceased and their actions, for which the loved one may or may not have had any involvement.

For those of you familiar with the classics, let me remind you of Antigone..."some honors are due to all the dead"

[DistressedAmerican]

13. What IF Mom Is Sitting On A Fortune She Could Return To The People They

killed to steal it?

Feel the same then?

[Solo_in_MD]

35. Independent issues

Letting the loved ones grieve is the civilized/humane/progressive thing to do.

Going after the survivors legally for the return of ill gotten gains is separate issue that should be handled outside of that.

[JuniperLea]

71. They aren't posting here...

And they are being denied nothing by the internet snark-fest.

Going after survivors should wait... unless they try to skip town with the ill-gotten gains. If that is all that is on their minds at a time like this, they deserve what they get.

[Bluerthanblue]

48. very well said, and so appropriate-

thank you for your lucid post.
and merciful heart.

[Richard Steele]

11. No. "Respect" must be earned, only CONTEMPT can be demanded.

And I consider her to be VERY DEMANDING INDEED.

[NoSheep]

16. That graphic is a scream! How can I steal it?

:rofl:

[Richard Steele]

17. Hang on, I'll find the full-sized copy for you.

Credit where due: That joke came from DUer "tummler";
I just put it into 'toon form.

[NoSheep]

20. I'm reminded of Cloris Leachman in that movie where she says:

"You may kill Thorndike."

Mel Brooks movie and she's a nurse. Can't remember the name.

:rofl:

[Tyler Durden]

24. "High Anxiety"

Nurse Diesel.

[NoSheep]

27. YES! Dayum that's a funny movie!

[Richard Steele]

21. OK, here ya go:

Just right-click and "save image as"!

[NoSheep]

29. Thanks! It's now on my board at work!

[Richard Steele]

32. DUers who enjoyed this toon ALSO enjoyed:

Another 15 or so in my journal: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/dicksteele

It was going to be a regular weekly post, but then I got busy at home
and slacked off on it.

Hey, did someone say "Mel Brooks" ?


"Young Rovenstein"

[NoSheep]

34. Those were wonderful! Thanks for saving them!

:applause:

[Cameron27]

51. They're wonderful!

I wish you'd put your name or initials on them so I could use them everywhere!!

[sutz12]

15. No. I'll give Mrs. Lay about 5 minutes.

And that time has expired.

[JVS]

18. If Ken Lay's wife is reading DU at this time, her priorities are fucked up

We should be able to say things here that we wouldn't and shouldn't go tell her to her face

[DistressedAmerican]

22. That's A Pretty Good Point.

[NoSheep]

23. I'd tell her to her face. I would.

:shrug:

[JVS]

26. To do so at this time would be poor etiquette

[NoSheep]

31. You're right. As far as etiquette goes.

[bloom]

43. That's how I look at it.

I can't see any reason that all of a sudden people on the internet should have to respect someone who has seriously disrespected millions of people through his actions during his life - just because he died.

Can you imagine (liberal) people saying nice things about Ann Coulter just because she died - after all of the crap she has said - the disrespect she has shown. I think the idea is absurd.

I think it would be beyond rude to harass someone's family - the people who are actually mourning. But if mourners of Lay are reading DU - I would want to know why? They want to be pissed off? :shrug:

[JuniperLea]

72. Damn straight! n/t

[NI4NI]

19. I respectfully hope he's burning in Hell,

the very same way I felt since his crimes and his destruction of honest American's well being became public; And besides, I don't know if his widow is in mourning and deserves respect? I wonder what Ann Coulter thinks, she's an expert on grieving widows.

[seemslikeadream]

30. OH GEE CAN'T MAKE UP MY MIND

Who deserves my respect and compassion? Such a hard choice!

[noonwitch]

36. No, but their grieving families deserve respect.

Ken Lay may have done some bad things, but he had a family who loved him. We should respect their grief.

[JuniperLea]

73. It's not disrespect to post things on the internet

As another DUer stated, if they are reading the internet and DU at a time like this...

[idgiehkt]

75. they're living off of tainted money.

I dont' respect that when so many families finances were done in by Enron.

[uppityperson]

37. I think people confuse forgiveness with respect.

There is a difference between blanket forgiveness of someone who is dead, and acknowledging the fact that someone died and this makes (family?) sad. Just because someone dies, they are not a hero, or deserving of forgiveness for their crimes or respect because they managed to die. It is ok to give those who do mourn time and space to do so, but you do not have to forgive the person or give them respect that they figured out how to die or were killed.

[Marr]

38. There's a huge difference between "not showing respect" and

openly mocking someone.

You don't have to show anyone respect to anyone that you don't want to. Phelps doesn't have to respect gays, for instance. But showing up at soldiers' funerals and shouting "god hates fags" is a little more than just "not showing respect". I didn't have to show my grandfather any respect when he died, and I didn't. Because he wa an asshole. But if I'd kicked his wife in the stomach, well... then *I* would've been the asshole.

[DistressedAmerican]

39. Certainly You Are Not Now Drawing A Moral Equivalence Between

a thread I posted here and the out of control anti-gay bigotry engaged in by Freddie Phelps.

I assume that you have a better answer to my questions than the last guy.

How is Ken Lay's wife deserving of the same treatment as the families of fallen soldiers?

How is my thread mocking the lady even remotely a moral equivalent to protesting soldiers funerals because they hate gays?


At least I target the person I have a problem with. They can't even seem to find the group that they have a problem with to attack.

Was your grandmother living on the vast material gains that your grandfather stole through his being an asshole? If not, your analogy is utterly off the mark.

on edit:
She is not without guilt in this. How do so many here dismiss that fact? She should have no choice. All assets should have been siezed. Since the gubment won't do that, it is in her and her alone to return the stolen money she intneds to keep and pass on to her kids.

[Marr]

45. I said nothing about moral equivalency, and I think my point was

pretty clear. It's in bad taste to go stomping on people just because they're related to someone you hate. I also think it's in bad taste to bash people who just lost a loved one- no matter who it is. I wouldn't go mocking the family of an executed murderer, and I'm not going to mock Ken Lay's wife. I don't know the woman, and I know nothing about her.

[Bridget Burke]

50. I haven't seen you recommending we protest at the funeral...

Oops--there will be no "funeral." Only 2 Memorial Services (in Colorado & Houston), since he's been cremated.

But--as someone pointed out above--she's probably NOT surfing DU. So she won't be bothered by any unkind words.

[Cameron27]

54. There is clearly a distinction between posting sentiments

on a message board, and displaying inappropriate (to some) behavior in public.

You're correct in pointing that out.

[AuntPatsy]

40. Obviously it must depend on the cirumstances and in the case to which

I know you must be referring to, I would have to say no.

[Dark]

41. Yes. They deserve to be left alone during their mourning.

That's the respect they deserve.

[lonestarnot]

42. She's going to get more than half of the ripped off loot

that the looter looted, looter profiteers do not deserve my respect.

[Bluerthanblue]

44. when this fucked up world finally comes to the realization

that we are ALL far more 'alike' than any of us would want to believe- when we realize that there but for some fluke of fortune goes you or I or anyone-
Then polls like this will be unnecessary-

And we will mourn the death of someone regardless of their worth- but because of their absence from this world-

I know people call me a dreamer- call me crazy- call me lots of expleteives.... but I did NOT rejoice over the recent death of a man who did unspeakable harm to me when I was a very small, needy, innocent child- Rather I wept, because he died, never understanding how every action we take in this world effects others. And when we return evil for evil, we only spread more evil. When we drop the weapon that we have EVERY RIGHT to use in revenge and retaliation, we are choosing to stop the cycle- and while many will call us fools, and hate us for our going against society's 'norm'- at least we can live with the knowledge that we haven't been controlled by the actions taken by those who we feel live contrary to what is 'good'- but act with reason, and purpose.

If others choose to drink from the cup of bitterness, because they've been forced to harvest the crop, I hope to always be able to turn away, and walk into the desert rather than choose to partake of poison, because every one else is.

Aren't we tired of leading lives of quiet desperation??? Aren't we tired of having our life be a series of RE_ACTIONS rather than conscious self determined steps?

I sure as hell am.

We are all human beings looking for a way through this world-

[deaniac21]

46. Are you saying this poll is necessary?

[Bluerthanblue]

47. I'm not sure

what you are asking.... That this poll IS here, is proof that we aren't where we need to be-

What I'm trying to say so very poorly is that it saddens me beyone words to see that no matter where you go, or where you look, people seem to need to seperate life out into 'us'- vs 'them' and then go on to act out as the 'flip side' of what 'they' are.

I keep looking for a community of thinkers where "we" is the vision.... the goal, because when 'we' focus on how every one of us impacts each other, and live in concert with that knowledge, we have the chance to accomplish much.

Ms. Lay, his children, friends, they don't have any less need to mourn, or weep, or ache for what they have lost than anyone. Yeah they have money- and money can indeed make life easier- but we who 'judge' his family as being fortunate for the ill gotten wealth, and NOT deserving of room to mourn, or acknowledge their human 'right' to have feelings every bit as real and poigniant, and painful as you, or me, or any loved one left behind by this Iraq or Afghan war- or 911 or a car accident, or a 6pack a day smoker who dies of lung cancer- !!!! I guess I'm the fool I've often been called, because I believe people CAN change, and CAN try 'new ways' of facing age old dilemmas- like extending mercy and compassion, even to those which our 'society/community' have chosen to despise.

I do believe there is a better way- so did John Lennon- he was a dreamer, but not the only one.... I'm still looking for the community of those who dare 'imagine' a better world, and are willing to take the risk of working towards it- leaving revenge, and grudges behind????

I don't know what I'm saying anymore. I'm just tired of the anger hate and bitterness.... weary to the bone.....sorry.


It always confused me how the rw could hate clinton, and hate hilliary even more for 'staying with him' it seemed like such a hypocritical stand- but here I read folks who say that the lay family should have dis-owned their husband/father/friend in order to be justified to be given the 'right to mourn' his passing.

this is one truly fucked up world- and its getting more and more bizarre

[deaniac21]

52. Well stated. I was just kidding you about this line

>Then polls like this will be unnecessary-

I know exactly what you mean. Try not to let it get you down. For the most part it can just be attributed to immaturity although a few, no matter what the age, can never leave behind sophomoric behavior.

[JuniperLea]

74. I understand where you're coming from

But that utopia is still far off, if ever attained.

I couldn't help but notice your closing... "this is one truly fucked up world - and it's getting more and more bizarre"... 'scuse me for saying, but that isn't a very positive thought to be held by a person of such lofty goals for the rest of us. See how easy it is to be sucked into the muck?

I'm all for positive affirmations and visualizations, but putting people down for feeling otherwise isn't exactly in keeping with that mantra. If you want to imagine another world, you have to be consistent. The Universe knows your intentions and usually fulfills them.

[Bluerthanblue]

76. i'm not

intending to put people down for anything- Juniperx- I was saying, can't we try and rise above?
Can't we try and do it differently?
And this world is fucked---- having to mince words on a board where people say they wish to progress to a better place than we are right now, is evidence of that- and my observation that it keeps getting more and more bizarre is simply that- my observation.
Imagining a better world is something all of us should aspire to- but lying about what we are living right now won't make it happen- I confess to being every single bit as human as anyone.... and I get weary too.- especially when the people I look to for encouragement and support embrace old ways- My words are not prophesy- I still dream and yearn, and will work for that better world... but I can't pretend this world we are now journing through is not dark and twisted....
sorry if I disappoint you- I'm not trying to-

[JuniperLea]

77. No worries... you are not here to uplift or disappoint me

And I really wasn't ragging on you, although now that I read my post again, it really did sound that way. I'm sorry for that.

What I'm trying to say is that if you truly want to see a change in the world, you should be a beacon to that change. Saying how fucked up the world is, although it is painfully true and obvious you are correct in that statement, the better thing to do might be to keep wholly positive. The mechanics of the mind are such that we see what we expect to see and we create for ourselves what we hold in our minds. If you truly want what you say, you have to believe it is possible and is already happening.

Sorry if I'm waxing too spiritual for you, but it seems to me this is where you are headed. I've been visualizing/creating my life for a very long time now... and I screw up sometimes. That's how we learn. And I can be damned snarky too:) It's human. To transcend that humanness is a hard thing to do. I think being the best you can be and letting that part of you show as much as you can is the way to go. People learn from watching others... taking on the qualities you admire and avoiding those you find disturbing in others.

Just thoughts:) You have a good heart and that is what matters right now. Things are rough right now. I need to work on myself as much as anyone:)

[Bluerthanblue]

78. thanks, for

encouraging me to strive for what I know we all desire... and sorry I'm so sensitive tonite-
I should back away from the board for abit I think.-
But it takes a little more effort than I seem to have to do that...
Thanks for your kind words, and new perspective-

Wishing us all peace, and renewal-
blu:grouphug:

[JuniperLea]

79. My pleasure, blu

:hug:


I'm super sensitive most of the time myself. I think I saw a lot of me in you and that is what prompted me to comment.

Stepping away, taking a break, is a good thing. I keep telling myself I need to do that too.

[hiphopnation]

56. hear hear

cheers to your strength and courage...you are, after all, a better person than he and you know that and will be comfortable in that knowledge and take it with you everywhere you go...more power to you!!

:hug:

[Midlodemocrat]

63. .

:applause: Well said, well said.

[Posteritatis]

49. Other ("...you insensitive clod!" )

Are all people in mourning deserving of the same level of respect? No, of course not.

Is there a minimum, even if it's just nominal, level of respect for their grief we should have? Sure, absolutely.

I'm a fan of schadenfreude in a lot of cases, but there's limits to how far I'll carry that.

[hiphopnation]

53. it's a weird thing to try to qualify

someone is bereaving, let them be...
i mean, not an outright advocate of leaving ms. lay alone, or her not deserving some level of contempt, but someone is bereaving, let them be

seems awkward to try to compare the amount of respect allotted to certain people, that's not my business...after all, some fallen soldiers, and their families, were bush supporters when their loved ones enlisted and remain bush supporters after they perished in battle.

it just seems like such a weird thing to try to qualify, you either have sympathy for them or you don't...i guess i do...doesn't mean she's not complicit, doesn't mean lay was any less of a scumbag, doesn't mean she's not every bit of a dirtbag if she doesn't attempt to right some of the wrongs that her husband perpatrated...zarqawi's widow is bereaving...let her be....hell, let bush mourn his criminal colleague, doesn't mean we wouldn't incarcerate the bastard when he was done...

$0.02

[LittleClarkie]

57. Would a freeper mother deserve the same consideration as Cindy?

Would she get it?

[Midlodemocrat]

65. Not from us. But I would think from other freepers.

and frankly, I think she deserves the same consideration if she lost her child. Even if she still supported *, she is still a grieving mom and I can't begin to fathom her pain. Nor do I ever want to.

[Midlodemocrat]

58. Yes. It is what makes us civilized to allow the grieving to mourn.

People of faith, like me, believe that God will take care of things.

I don't know what Ken Lay's wife is planning to do with the money, IF she even knows where it is. Neither do any of you.

Additionally, having compassion for the those who grieve isn't an either/or. The Lay family/friends are grieving, if not what Ken Lay became, what he may have been and what has been lost. Allowing his family/friends to grieve in no way diminishes my ability to grieve for the lost of Iraq. I have enough compassion for both.

Dancing on graves is unseemly. No matter what the circumstance.

[LittleClarkie]

59. Then it seems we are an unseemly bunch

Well, at least on the internet. In person, maybe not.

[Midlodemocrat]

60. You're probably right about that.

I don't think we would be doing any celebrating IRL. At least, I wouldn't.

[Nutmegger]

62. You said it

Some of these comments here are disheartening to say the least.

[Midlodemocrat]

64. I'd like to think, as Little Clarkie said, that some of this

comes from the anonymity of the internet.

[Bridget Burke]

69. None of these postings are disturbing the Lay family.

They are free to grieve.

Linda Lay worked for Mr Lay--back when she was Mrs SomebodyElse. He divorced his original wife & married Linda. She is not a financial innocent.

[Midlodemocrat]

70. You don't know that. You are assuming.

Sorry. Makes us less human to grave dance.

[lpbk2713]

61. I won't tell a widow what a bastard her old man was.

But that doesn't mean I won't still think he was a bastard.

[koopie57]

66. I would respect his old lady

if she gave back what he stole to those who earned it. If she wanted to be respected, she should have behaved in such a fashion. From where I sit, she don't want it, don't care and won't get it from me. And I hardly think she will give a rats ass.

[sandnsea]

67. They all deserve a basic level of respect

Along the lines of if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Actual outpouring of respect and mourning rises from that basic level, concurrent with the contributions the individual made to society.

Do people really need to be taught this??

Oops, there I go being a bitch about basic human decency and common sense again. :spank:

[LittleClarkie]

68. And being better than the people we bitch about

as opposed to being their mirrors on the opposite side.