The civil war in the Democratic Party is killing us.

[robcon]

I think the anti-Hillary wing of the Democratic Party has become hysterical. Idiotic. Irrational. Extreme.

Some examples...

Friends Don't Let Friends Work for Hillary]
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/friends-dont-let-friends_b_23938.html

Don't be a hack, Hillary
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-huffington29jun29,0,1354816.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

I believe Hillary Clinton will be the next president of the U.S. Smart. Rational. A leader.

I think the anti-Hillary forces in our party are not playing fair (as if, I guess, I should expect them to do so.) Unintelligent. Hypocritical. Undermining the party's chances of regaining the most important branch of the government.

[eleny]

1. Guess who else calls us "hysterical. Idiotic. Irrational. Extreme."?

You don't really want to emulate them, do you?

[robcon]

8. The anti-Hillary forces are doing the Rethuglican Party's work

So, yes. I agree. The shrill anti-Hillary rhetoric is working for the Republicans, IMO, unintentionally

[asthmaticeog]

13. Hillary is doing some of the Republican Party's work, herself.

Whose work are you doing? Supporting a candidate that's despised by all of the Republicans whose water she nonetheless carries, and despised even MORE by half of the party she's nominally a member of?

[yurbud]

44. it is odd that the GOP feeds their base and the Dems piss on theirs

like Hillary does on a regular basis.

[eleny]

17. That was not my point

Being a smat alec won't help you be understood. But your posting wasn't meant to create discussion. Rant on if you wish.

[Warpy]

28. No kidding, and who started this "war," anyway?

It couldn't be the people who lost us all 3 branches of government by forcing the party to the right, could it?

The truth is that the party has always been like this. Factionalization, dialogue, and outright fighting have always made us stronger by clarifying the issues. Because we don't march in lock step, if something isn't working, we're free to CHANGE IT.

Conservatives seem to be missing that point.

[LittleClarkie]

2. I've got my marshmallows ready

Anyone for a hotdog?

[NoPasaran]

10. I'll be there in ten minutes

Stopping at 7-11 for beer and smokes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. I'll take soem popcorn, thankee

:popcorn:

[stepnw1f]

3. surrrrrre there is, con

[ClassWarrior]

4. That's not a wing...

That's 95 percent of the frickin' bird.

NGU.

[robcon]

11. Except that polls suggest otherwise.

Hillary is the favorite of the plurality of the Democratic Party.

It's one thing to disagree with Hillary. It's another to undermine the front runner for 'whatever' purposes.

[ClassWarrior]

16. "The Front Runner??"

:rofl:

I got news for you... The election is more than two years and a midterm away. Hello?? McFly??...

NGU.

[eleny]

20. You like that Lieberman guy, do ya?

Feh on your reasoning.

[Yollam]

22. Polls also suggest that Hillary would lose in the general election

She is an exceptionally polarizing figure to cons and independents, AND she turns off the liberal wing of the democrats. She does not appeal to a wide enough swath of the center to win, even with her husband in her corner. You and Bartcop are wrong on this one.

If you want to go the centrist, Clintonite route, I would go with Wesley Clark. He might have a tougher time getting the nomination, but he would stand a strong chance in the general election, and has very low negatives on all sides.

I think Hillary would lose by a much larger margin than Kerry did.

[ClassWarrior]

29. Our values. "Whatever." Party uber alles.

:sarcasm:

NGU.

[asthmaticeog]

5. What good is a pro-war, corporate suck-up dem president?

The "civil war" in the dem party is a fight for this party's progressive soul. I for one will not cede my beliefs to a republican-lite in the interest of politeness. I want people in government who represent my views, and she ain't it. So if that isn't "playing fair," fine, so I'm unfair. And as for who's unintelligent and hypocritical, I've got a few words about who might have those qualities, but as DU has rules, I'll stay mum on that for now.

[Mythsaje]

6. There are good reasons not to like Hillary...

I know a lot of folks who'd vote for her in a heartbeat, but that's primarily because they see her as a woman with an actual chance to WIN.

She lost about the last vestige of respect I had for her with the whole Grand Theft Auto hearings...Grand Theft America is far more relevent, IMO.

[robcon]

18. There are good reasons to agree that Hillary will be a great president

Yet, the answer isn't "Vote for Clark" it's "Friends don't let friends work for Hillary."

Funny... you don't agree that it's a civil war against the leading candidate for the presidency.

[Mythsaje]

32. I don't trust her...

Simple as that. I think she's an opportunist, and way too bound up with the corporate interests. She may well be a good Democratic Senator, but she's a far cry from my choice as a President...female or not.

And I, for one, am done with Presidential dynasties.

Not to mention...we have the right to work against politicans we don't like...even if it offends you if we do.

[Radical Activist]

7. I guess I'll just obey orders and fall in line

for the Republican the corporate powers that be have chosen to lead the Democratic Party. Please.

The power of corporate money has split the party. I stand for what the Democratic Party is supposed to be, while Hillary does not. She is the one splitting us.

How did you like those Hillary supporters protesting Al Gore?

[robcon]

37. Agreein with Clark is ok. Agreeing with Hillary is "following orders"

Yeah, you're a reasonable guy/gal.

[Radical Activist]

39. I don't know what Clark has to do with it.

I've gotten in plenty of arguments with Clark supporters on this board.
Besides, Hillary isn't electable because she won't be able to get liberals to vote for her over a third party candidate.

[leftchick]

9. Then Hillary should just leave the Democratic party

and join her corporate buddies in The Repuke party where she fits in like a pea in a pod.

[Selatius]

12. I'm sorry, but this is an invitation to a flame war

I'm not a supporter of Hillary because as far as I'm aware, she hasn't even come out in full support of a timetable for a withdrawal of troops from Iraq. I don't believe that makes me irrational or idiotic. The fact that you worded your statement in such broad terms should be taken as an insult to reasoned debate.

[Revolution_July4]

73. you are completely rational and intelligent

I think it is irrational to support a person just because they are a democrat. That makes us just as bad as the republicans.

Hillary is not our base! She is ignoring the will of the Democratic Party, and the will of the American people.

[blm]

14. I'm an anti-corruption, open government Democrat and PREFER a president

who believes in good, open governance as a priority.

I just don't believe Hillary has shown she's concerned about it, and Bill certainly HURT our cause every step of the way by closing the books on IranContra, BCCI and Iraqgate. Revelations that would have prevented 9-11, the Iraq war and certainly NO BUSH would have ever been allowed even NEAR the White House, let alone inside it.

[robcon]

31. I'm an anti-corruption, open government Democrat and PREFER a preside

who believes in universal healthcare, good open governance and I prefer Hillary. She's shown the guts and the ability to stand up to the Republicans.

But it's not just that you disagree with the best course for the Democratic Party. You want to trash one of the leading candidates, IMO. That's civil war, IMO. And unnecessary.

Just vote otherwise. Just promote your candidate. Tearing down the front runner is stupid, IMO.

[blm]

56. I don't trash Hillary - you have me confused with those who do.

I just answered your post in the spirit of sharing WHY I don't see her as a PREFERRED candidate. I will support whatever Dem gets the nod. I was sharing why some of us have preferences and that is usually based on our priorities.

I am interested in why you believe Hillary WILL open the books on BushInc when her husband was the one who closed them.

[acmavm]

19. I've never seen those articles but I am totally anti-Hillary and I want to

thank you for saying I'm unintelligent, hypocritical, and undermining the party's chances of regaining the most important branch of the government.

I think you're crazy if you think that the majority of dems want Hillary to win the nomination. In fact, I'm bookmarking this thread so I can throw it back in your face after the nominations.

Just let her run with Joe Lieberman as an Independent.

[asthmaticeog]

30. Making a screencap might be better than bookmarking.

Just in case this thread gets disappeared. Of course, it's moot if the OP gets disappeared...

[Sapere aude]

21. Why is it when you don't support a DLC type you are hurting the party

but not when you don't put more progressive candidate up for nomination?

What I think will lead us to more years of republican rule is running Dem candidates that are so close to those on the right that people will just vote for the genuine article and vote for the repub.

I think people are hungry for a contrast to the right and I think that the Dem candidate that can contrast with the repub will win not the one who competes for the same middle of the road voter.

[sandnsea]

23. Your post is no better

What good do you think it does to call people who don't like Clinton politics hysterical and irrational?? You're being unintelligent and hypocritical when you post stuff like that, how come you can't see it??

[in_cog_ni_to]

24. The repukes are the ones who want Hillary to be our candidate, NOT

the Left Wing of the Democratic Party. The repukes and repuke lites...the DLC want Hillary to be our candidate. I don't. We have too many other worthy LIBERAL Democrats who could be our candidate. Who told you Hillary would win the election?

[yurbud]

25. So to end the civil war, we should surrender to the corporate owned Dems?

[Guy Fawkes]

26. To be fair...

She has a good track record with abortion, civil rights, education and an OK environmental record. She did vote to ban flag burning, an idiot move to gain centrist support, but she doesn't seem so bad. While I still would rather have a few different people for president- I'm not frothing at the mouth for Hillary- I would vote for her if she won the party bid.

[marmar]

27. "hysterical. Idiotic. Irrational. Extreme"

Gee, thanks for trying to end that "civil war."

[LittleClarkie]

33. "Ending" it as in hoping one side will go away

Instead of trying to work it out somehow.

Yeah, doesn't seem like a very effective avenue does it.

[robcon]

34. You're welcome.

Stop attacking the front runner. Support your candidate all you want. Stop working for the Republicans, and support Democrats: all of them.

[LittleClarkie]

55. I don't attack her. But until she gets a vote in a primary

I'm not convinced she's really the frontrunner. So far the media and the GOP have anointed her thus. But they did the same with Dean, and that didn't quite pan out either.

But, surely it's permissible to have issues with the way the woman's positions and how she conducts herself in the political realm.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. My heart bleeds for poor wittle Hillary.

I don't vote for warmongers, even if they have a (D) after their names.

[partylessinOhio]

40. That is a good reason, no warmongers!

[DireStrike]

36. So should we have supported Bush a few years ago with his ~90% approval

rating?

After all, to do something else would be irrational.

[robcon]

41. You missed the point by a mile

I don't suggest you support Hillary because she's popular. In fact only Hillary can be 'unpopular' on DU because she's popular among Democrats (shades of Yogi Berra - 'nobody goes to that restaurant - it's too crowded.')

[DireStrike]

49. Um... what are you suggesting then?

1) Why should we support Hillary? Besides "She's the front runner" and "She's a democrat" (She's not, as far as I'm concerned.)

2) Why should we not decry/attack her for dragging the party further to the right?

[robcon]

69. We should support all Dems, and let the voters decide.

I support Clark, Feingold, Gore, Kerry, etc. I am a Democrat. I don't attack fellow Democrats before the election.

I don't ask you to vote for her, if you don't like her, or don't agree with her. But the vicious attacks are a sign of civil war in the party... that is troubling.

[yurbud]

42. the DLC should get a different PR firm from GOP--talking points to

obviously similar as you just noticed.

Much like that commercial Ned Lamont did where he showed Bush speaking you heard Joe Lieberman--saying the exact same thing.

[yurbud]

38. Terms of truce: give up corporate money & apologize for

Bankruptcy Bill

NAFTA

confirming Bush appointees

Telecomm Act of 1996

Patriot Act vote

Iraq War Resolution vote (and give an honest explanation about why you supported it that doesn't mention bullshit like terrorism, WMD, or spreading democracy).


I do not begrudge anyone for being business friendly or even conservative on some social issues like abortion.

But when an elected official or candidate is clearly beholden to some interests other than the voters they represent, I can't trust him or her. That is the problem with the DLC. They are the property of corporate America, but we are supposed to believe they are free agents looking out for us, even though they do the shit listed above.

Now that I think about it, I want them hooked up to a lie detector and jumper cables on their nuts to shock them if their apology isn't sincere. Not enough current to kill them (that would be wrong) just enough to make their testicles charcoal briquets.

[DireStrike]

43. I'd like to add her support for faith based initiatives

They're unconstitutional.

I'm not too happy about the GTA nonsense either, but it's not something I'd convict her for.

[yurbud]

45. GTA?

[DireStrike]

50. Grand theft auto, and all her recent "Kids today..." spiel -nt-

[yurbud]

53. oh geeze, a Sista Soljah moment

[robcon]

46. Terms of truce - a real truce

Back off your attacks on Hillary, a Dewmocrat who will make a great president. And then let the Democrats choose their candidate.

[DireStrike]

51. I agree!

Please show me this Hillary who is a democrat and who would make a great president. I'd gladly support such a person.

[yurbud]

54. I would be happy to vote for Hillary if she would vote for us

especially on issues like Iraq. What average American is getting anything out of that war besides a future tax bill and another combat rotation if they are in the guard.

Are you guys for real defending her?

Don't you think the Democrats should stand for more than just being the opposing team with a D on their jerseys?

Maybe the DLC should join up with the business republicans who aren't particularly religious and see how both would do flying their true colors. My guess is they'd get votes in the Lyndon LaRouche range.

[sweetheart]

47. the civil war is killing us

The corporate victors of the 1850's conflict have
perfected a new corporate world order of neo-slavery
and neo-compliance with a cable TV brainwashing dystopia,
that now the civil war is fought in every houshold on earth,
exported to iraq and abroad as the encroaching arm of american slavery.

The civil war is killing us, really? :-)

[leftofthedial]

48. the corporate wing of the Democratic Party

is killing America

[xchrom]

52. no more clintons.

it's not a free country -- per se -- any more -- BUT within limits you can do and say whatever you want.

you get out there -- you cute little cheer leader you -- and support hillary -- all ''gimme an H -- gimme an I --'' ...

and piss and moan cause others don't fall in mindlessly behind you and that cute enthusiam of yours.

but no more dynasties for me -- no more nafta or cafta -- no more voting for choice so cretins can tell me that when somebody who is really nothing but self serving and votes for an illegal war can say ''see, see -- she voted for choice -- she's liberal'' voting for women's choice is simply rational and apropos of not being as stupid as many red neck repukes is all that is.

i'm not havin it -- but good luck to you and that cute little outfit.

[Zhade]

57. Whatever, conservative.

NT!

[SaveElmer]

58. As useful as it can be, the left blogosphere...

Is not particularly representative of the Democratic Party as a whole. I agree there is alot of irrational Hillary bashing, much of it taking place right here on DU.

Fact is Hillary is the most popular Democrat in the country right now (I will now get responses on how every poll showing Hillary in the lead is full of shit, course if they showed Russ Feingold in front they would be "right on"), and that just infuriates them more.

It is possible to have legitimate reasons to be opposed to Hillary, and it is possible to have reasonable discussions with those people, but the ones who can do little more than spout well worn epithets at her, and repeat long discredited "facts" about her record, are beyond reason.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

63. Correction: Hilary is the Democrat most people have HEARD OF

so she is therefore "the frontrunner."

At this point, statements about her being "the frontrunner" are as unsurprising and as meaningless as the fact that every year, the current First Lady, whoever she is, wins or places second in Good Housekeeping's Most Admired Woman of the Year poll.

Oh, and I don't trust polls unless I know who is sponsoring them and how the questions were framed, and sometimes not even then, depending on the answers about how the poll was constructed.

[SaveElmer]

64. So Democratic voters are too stupid to remember...

Who the last two Presidential nominees, the last two vice-presdiential nominees, and the last legitimate Vice-President were. All of whom Hillary out-polls?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

67. No, they're probably thinking of them as losers

You know, the Adlai Stevenson or Wendell Willkie syndrome. "If at first you don't succeed, then try try again" has decidedly mixed results in politics.

[SaveElmer]

68. Possibly true with Kerry...

I'm not sure folks think of past vice-presidential noinees that way...and of course we know Al Gore did not lose.

[Asgaya Dihi]

66. Agreed

This far out from the 1992 election nobody but the party faithful had heard of Bill Clinton either, he pretty much came out of nowhere in the primaries. The idea that we have a "front runner" more than two years before the election strikes me as bizarre to say the least. Let's see who our field of hopefuls is first rather than judge blind and sight unseen.

I won't vote for Hillary though, nor Lieberman or the other compromisers. We need to find our old morals, remember the poor rather than just cater to the middle class and popular prejudice. There was a time when we had what it takes to take on an unpopular cause such as civil rights and the whole nation was better off for it. In this age of "play it safe" politics there's no room for morals or right and wrong and the whole nation has paid for it. Drop that crap and get back to our old base, see if we can't actually stand for something worthwhile again and draw a real difference between us and the opposition.

[madmunchie]

59. Hillary CANNOT win the election to be POTUS!

What is so hard to understand? She simply is unelectable. The Right hate her and most of the Left don't have her on their short list of their favorite likely candidates.

To me it is simple stupidity to seriously discuss Hillary being a Dem Nom for 08' Pres Campaign. It has nothing to do with hurting the party, it is simply stating logic and fact. The only way that she will end up in the WH is if the election, once again is stolen.

People don't need to go out of their way to dis Hillary, but it is just as irrational to try to inject Hillary as a serious Presidential candidate and counterproductive.

No woman has ever been elected to the POTUS and Hillary isn't the one to break that wall down. She just pretty much puts up more walls.

What we need to do as Democrats, is to seek a candidate that best represents our values and has the best chance to win, instead of focusing on this waste of time discussion.

[FredScuttle]

60. "civil war"....LOL

it is neither civil nor war. Hillary is reaping the seeds of centrism and appeasement she's planted for the last 6 years. I like her as my Senator, but she's a non-starter as a presidential contender. Who the hell is her support? Anti-war Democrats (whose numbers, in case you have noticed, have mushroomed) have abandoned her and centrist, GOP-leaning voters wouldn't vote for her if she walked on water.

BTW, I don't recall her declaring for the 2008 race yet.

[Lefty48197]

61. If Hillary gets nominated, then I'm voting GREEN

Ha. Just kidding. I'm voting Democratic. Just making fun of the idiots that think like that.

[Asgaya Dihi]

62. Lack of it has killed the party

If we had fought long ago we'd be a stronger party for it. The cowardice of recent decades is what killed the party. With one young black man in eight between the ages of 25 and 29 behind bars as we speak that's a lot of people who used to be in our voting block. That's just the ones currently behind bars, some 4.7 million or so are barred from voting mostly due to drug convictions and those largely among the minority population. The end result of decades of war on drugs has been these... purity up on both cocaine and heroin, by quite a bit with heroin and some at the street level with cocaine. Prices on both have fallen sharply and death rates on both are up on the order of seven times or so.

The most notable single result of our "tough on crime" rampage was this. www.prisonsucks.com

When we decided that we no longer had morals we cared to uphold, when we decided that as long as the stock market was healthy the poor were beside the point, and when we decided that the civil rights era was over as it was really just moving behind bars we abandoned all right to a leadership role in this nation.

It's not fights that are the problem, it's selling out and abandoning principle in favor of the politics of convenience. We spent too many decades imprisoning and abandoning the people we thought were some of our voters, and recent elections have been close.

If Hillary runs, I don't vote. No more compromise.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

65. Yes, the Democrats have done way too much enabling

I'm no longer a lockstep Democrat. I'm lucky in Minnesota in that most of the Dems are still in touch with their roots, but so many of the national figures are pandering sellouts.

[marions ghost]

70. oh puleeze

Hillary is not electable. A woman is not electable yet (maybe someday). We have other good candidates.

This Hillary for Prez push is a rightwing ploy. They'd LOVE to see Hillary run.

[ecstatic]

71. Very interesting point of view, and I think I agree

I was all for Clinton but reading these boards has slowly turned me against her in a way. It's not that I don't think for myself but the evidence brought up on these boards is compelling.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

72. "hysterical. Idiotic. Irrational. Extreme. Unintelligent. Hypocriti.."

Odd. That's exactly what I think of Hillary Clinton.

If you think it's bad now, just wait until the 2008 primary season. We're going to see a replay of 1968. Only hopefully the right people will win this time.

[Revolution_July4]

74. If the democratic "leadership" would support the will of the people

we would win elections.

[IdaBriggs]

75. I want someone other than a BUSH OR A CLINTON in power.

I think it would be better for the whole country to get some "new blood" into office.

Lord, at this point, maybe I should put one of my puppies up for office -- I think they'd get more votes! Does it say anywhere that you have to be a human to run? And, will they count "dog years" instead of ACTUAL years? Hmmm.... :crazy:

[WeRQ4U]

76. It may not be helping... but we're not like them.

We can't all just agree to disagree and back a candidate that we don't approve of. We all think independently. The circular firing squad that we have going on in our party all the time is a function of our nature. And I'd rather have THAT then be some Republican head-nodding lap dog. If it's a problem that our party members strive to back a person that represents what they BELIEVE, at the expense of NOT supporting someone who represents only what can get us the WIN, then that's a problem I'm willing to deal with. But I don't see any other logical way of doing it.

[oc2002]

77. I will NEVER VOTE FOR HILLARY OR ANY OTHER DLCer.

she is a sellout, and will lose badly by a landslide defeat.

maybe that will be the last straw, and lead to the DNC being dismantled.