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kurth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 03:08 PM
Original message
Swift-boat this
Fourteen Senate Democrats got in line with the GOP and voted in favor of a constitutional amendment on flag burning this week. More Democrats, including Dick Durbin and Hillary Clinton, tried to kind of, sort of, get on board by backing a bill that would have outlawed some flag burning without amending the Constitution. There is another way. As we reported yesterday, the campaign for Republican Sen. George Allen of Virginia has gone on the attack against Democratic challenger Jim Webb for saying that he would have voted against the constitutional amendment. But rather than taking it quietly in the mode of John Kerry in 2004, Webb's campaign is giving Allen -- and a lot of timid Democrats -- a lesson in how you fight back.

The Allen campaign said that Webb's position on flag burning exposed him as "liberal" and put him in the same camp as "John Kerry, Ted Kennedy and Charles Schumer." Those are fighting words in the Commonwealth, and Webb isn't taking them sitting down. Returning fire, Webb's camp said Wednesday that "George Felix Allen Jr. and his bush-league lapdog, Dick Wadhams, have not earned the right to challenge Jim Webb's position on free speech and flag burning." They noted that Webb, the secretary of the Navy under Ronald Reagan, served in Vietnam and "fought for our flag and what it stands for," while "George Felix Allen Jr. chose to cut and run."

Allen turned 18 in 1970, but he did not serve in Vietnam, staying in college and spending summers at what the Webb campaign calls a "dude ranch in Nevada." "When he and his disrespectful campaign puppets attack Jim Webb they are attacking every man and woman who served," the Webb campaign press release continued. "Their comments are nothing more than weak-kneed attacks by cowards." The Allen campaign responded by saying that it never meant to question Webb's patriotism.

Webb's approach was plainly designed to get under Allen's skin. Among other things, the senator is said to hate his middle name; apparently, "Felix" doesn't really fit the cowboy-boots-and-Confederate-flag style Allen has adopted for himself. But as the National Journal's Hotline explains, the blowback may have been a preemptive strike against further attacks on Webb's patriotism or military service. Allen strategist Chris Lacivita served as a media advisor for the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2006/06/29/webb/index.html
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. A Democratic candidate with the courage to actually fight back -
in my home state, no less. Will wonders never cease?

I doubt if most Dems running will learn the lesson from this.
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Jack_Dawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. My head is spinning
A non-posturing, non-word mincing kick ass democrat? Can it be?

:toast:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. Webb was NOT SWIFTBOATED - responding to chickenhawk POLITICIANS
is what his campaign manager did.

Swiftboating is when VETERANS are used to attack you with lies about your service.

ANYONE can attack a chickenhawk politician and campaign manager - that's EASY to do.
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. swiftboating, like watergate, has become the kleenex of
political jargon. it now applies to any sort of defamation, regardless of origin

that was quick, yes?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Well here's why GOPs started using vets to attack Kerry -

When Delay and Lott attcaked Kerry in 2003 he nailed them much like Webb did, but to a reporter.

Kerry would have loved to make it against Bush and Rove. It's EASY to attack chickenhawks - swifting, using men who did serve, is a whole other circumstance. GOPs learned that you can't take real vets on directly - you have to do it using other vets to make it work.




Joe Conason: 'Kerry fires back at G.O.P. snipers'
Posted on Wednesday, March 06 @ 09:37:02 EST
This article has been read 1465 times.
By Joe Conason, New York Observer

We are living in a time when scoundrels seek to bully the loyal opposition and demonize all dissent for their own advancement. That’s why certain Republican politicians and pundits have assaulted Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle and other Democrats in terms usually reserved for foreign and domestic enemies.

What has been even more troubling than this ugly campaign, however, is the passivity of those who are its targets.

Mr. Daschle and his colleagues have remained inert during recent weeks and months, while their adversaries compared him with Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein and accused him of giving "aid and comfort" to the nation’s enemies. They have stood by in silence while authoritarian propaganda emanated from Republican fax machines and spread across the country. They’ve allowed the South Dakota Democrat, an Air Force veteran and bioterror target, to be taunted like a traitor by Rush Limbaugh, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove and other tough-talkers who avoided military service as if it were anthrax.

<<<<<

So it was refreshing to hear at last from a patriot who found his voice and addressed the Republican Congressional leadership in the tone that they deserve. The first Democrat to speak up was, unsurprisingly, a Senator who has been both a war hero and a war protester.

On March 2, John Kerry took the podium at a political dinner in New Hampshire to defend Mr. Daschle, a colleague who is likely to become his rival for their party’s Presidential nomination. What the Massachusetts Senator said about Messrs. Lott and DeLay—and, by implication, about all the would-be White House enforcers—deserved more attention than a single article in his hometown paper, The Boston Globe.

"Let me be clear tonight to Senator Lott and to Tom DeLay: One of the lessons that I learned in Vietnam—a war they did not have to endure—and one of the basic vows of commitment that I made to myself, was that if I ever reached a position of responsibility, I would never stop asking questions that make a democracy strong," he told the audience of New Hampshire Democrats, whose startled murmurs quickly erupted into a standing ovation.

"Those who try to stifle the vibrancy of our democracy and shield policies from scrutiny behind a false cloak of patriotism miss the real value of what our troops defend and how we best defend our troops," he continued. "We will ask questions, and we will defend our democracy."

A combat veteran who received three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star in two Navy tours—and who later founded Vietnam Veterans Against the War—Mr. Kerry has ample stature to challenge the character assassins and commissars of the far right. The day after the Concord dinner, he didn’t hesitate to reiterate his rebuke, adding the name of another Southern-fried chicken hawk.

"My message to Trent Lott and Tom Delay and Dick Armey—each of whom did not have to endure the war in Vietnam … the lesson I learned in that war is, the best way to defend American democracy and our soldiers is to ask the right questions at the right time."

Suddenly, it was the Republicans who had nothing to say.

You may reach Joe Conason via email at: jconason@observer.com .

Reprinted from The New York Observer:
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good -
Guess we will all have a new senator from Virginia soon.

Joe
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. Now THAT's a campaign!!!
:woohoo:

You wanna know how you do it? Here's how, they pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send on of his to the morgue!*

I like this sentence:
The Allen campaign responded by saying that it never meant to question Webb's patriotism.
--keep them on the defensive! Always on the defensive!!!

Are you paying attention, Democratic candidates and your staffs?

__________
*Sean Connery as "Malone" in The Untouchables
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RufusEarl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. Someone get this name of Webb's campaign manager,
and give that man a raise. He earned it!
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Appalachian_American Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. These Webb people need to be the ones running the 2008
Presidential campaign.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
28. Attacking chickenhawk politicians is easy - here's Wade's counter to Rove
"The closest Karl Rove ever came to combat," said Kerry spokesman David Wade, "was these last months spent worrying his cellmates might rough him up in prison. This porcine political operative can't cut and run from the truth any longer."

Wade continued: "When it came to Iraq, this Administration chose to cut and run from sound intelligence and good diplomacy, cut and run from the best military advice, cut and run from their responsibility to give our troops body armor, and in November Americans will cut and run from this Republican Congress."

>>>>>>

Swiftboating is an entirely different set of circumstances. If dozens of veterans came out as a group against Webb and lied about his service no matter what the service records pointed to, and the media then gave all the airtime to their lies and a small fraction to the facts countering the lies, THEN you would be in a swiftboat situation.
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MyNameGoesHere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. I met Mr. Webb
back when he was the SecNav. He was a bombardier/navigator in the Naval Reserves and they are required to fly so many hours a year to keep qualified. So i was the flight line tech for his launch when he motioned for an AQ (fire control tech) to assist him. "The radar is not working he says" I slowly do a quick scan and notice that the power switch is in the OFF position. I nonchalantly reach under the B/N hood and switch it on. He looks up with surprise and "Says what did you do?" Well he was the SecNav and i was just a lowly E-4. I say "Sometimes it just takes a little while to power up" lol . he pats me on the shoulder and says thanks. I then proceeded to tell my shipmates how "dumb" our SecNav was. Boy he has sure proved me wrong.

Anyway. You neve know what life holds.
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Webb was a Marine Corps officer, an infantry platoon commander.
Edited on Thu Jun-29-06 04:53 PM by Mayberry Machiavelli
http://www.jameswebb.com/about.htm

I don't see anything in his bio about being an aviator or NAVY reservist.

I've never heard of a Secretary of the Army, Navy, or Air Force actually being a reserve officer in that service before.

Where do you get your facts, or story, from? :shrug:
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MyNameGoesHere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Pardon my stupidity
Edited on Thu Jun-29-06 05:35 PM by LibFromWV
i am posting things when i have a horrible fever and cold. I made a mistake.
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Where does it say about the aviation? Or him being a Navy reservist?
Your story says Webb was a Navy reservist aviator. I don't see anything in his bio about him being a Navy reservist, or being an Naval aviator as opposed to an infantry commander in the Marines.
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MyNameGoesHere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. And also
Marine officers Are TRAINED WHERE? DOH!! DON baby
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. When you say Navy reservist, that implies that person was in the NAVY
Edited on Thu Jun-29-06 05:10 PM by Mayberry Machiavelli
and not the Marines. You do realize that a portion of the Academy grads are assigned, like Webb and Ollie North, to the Marines, don't you? They are NOT Naval officers. They are USMC officers.

I spent most of my adult life as a commissioned officer in the U.S. Navy, I don't know who the hell you think you are talking to.
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MyNameGoesHere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. ACKK hold on an apology
it was his predecessor i am a little sick today. Sorry did not meant to offend the story is very true the time was however incorrect. Just the wronf secnav. I am hevily medicated maybe i shouldnt post
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. You sure came on strong for someone without their facts straight.
Edited on Thu Jun-29-06 05:24 PM by Mayberry Machiavelli
Apology accepted however.

Sorry you felt you had to disable your profile as a result of this little exchange.
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MyNameGoesHere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. why thank you for your
conditional acceptance of an honest error.
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I don't know which SecNav you are talking about. There's only one
James Webb, the Annapolis grad and former Marine infantry officer who served as Reagan's SecNav and now is running as a Democratic candidate for Senate in VA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_of_the_Navy#Secretaries_of_the_Navy_.28Cabinet.29

There WAS a James E. Webb who was a Marine Corps aviator in WWII who was one of the first NASA administrators but was never SECNAV:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/Biographies/webb.html
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MyNameGoesHere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Well i told you
Edited on Thu Jun-29-06 06:40 PM by LibFromWV
i had the years wrong it was his predecessor. I actually served under both of them so i had my years messed up. If you want to test me send me your email add and i will send my dd-214. i got nothing to hide and i am human and make mistakes. BTW the story was i related was Lehman and not Webb who served later. I wanted to edit out my post but the time has expired. Please continue your investigation though. Hope you are just having a wonderful day:)
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Jack_Dawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. FINALLY A DEMOCRAT WITH BALLS
and I don't care if "balls" is offensive to you.

:toast:
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
9. That, friends and neighbors, is how it is done! Yessireeeee!
Fight fire with more fire! Way to go!

If only the rest of the Dems had that kind of spine.

Bake
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
11. How helpful of Salon to report the response
Too bad they were too chickenshit to report the numerous responses and rebuttals to the swiftliars.

Oh yeah, the swiftliars were actual veterans too, and Salon got weak-kneed about having to call veterans liars. Liberal Democratic war protestors, sure, we can call them every name in the book. But Vietnam war supporters, ooooh scary, we can't say bad things about them.

How easy to come out in support of the Vietnam war supporter, Webb, against someone who didn't even serve.

What a bunch of chickenshit.
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
13. Now thats textbook ,boys and girls. Send it to the party leaders.
Show them how you repel the slimeball smear. You simply return the favor and keep returning it until they scream "uncle"
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
15. Webb was attacked by CHICKENHAWK POLITICIANS - - that's not swiftboating
Edited on Thu Jun-29-06 05:23 PM by blm
Kerry attacked back just fine when POLITICIANS like Tom DeLay and Trent Lott attacked him - he called them out for their nonservice IMMEDIATERLY.

Swiftboating was done using VETS to do the dirty woirk and operating without the needed tie to the Bush campaign.

BIG FOCKING DIFFERENCE.

And where was all the press whenever Kerry counterattacked the swifts?


When Delay and Lott attcaked Kerry in 2003 he nailed them much like Webb did, but to a reporter.

Swiftboating is different than confrontations between campaigns.

Of course we know that swifts were really working for Rove, but no way to prove it the first day.

Kerry would have loved to make it against Bush and Rove. It's EASY to attack chickenhawks - swifting, using men who did serve, is a whole other circumstance. GOPs learned that you can't take real vets on directly - you have to do it using other vets to make it work.




Joe Conason: 'Kerry fires back at G.O.P. snipers'
Posted on Wednesday, March 06 @ 09:37:02 EST
This article has been read 1465 times.
By Joe Conason, New York Observer

We are living in a time when scoundrels seek to bully the loyal opposition and demonize all dissent for their own advancement. That’s why certain Republican politicians and pundits have assaulted Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle and other Democrats in terms usually reserved for foreign and domestic enemies.

What has been even more troubling than this ugly campaign, however, is the passivity of those who are its targets.

Mr. Daschle and his colleagues have remained inert during recent weeks and months, while their adversaries compared him with Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein and accused him of giving "aid and comfort" to the nation’s enemies. They have stood by in silence while authoritarian propaganda emanated from Republican fax machines and spread across the country. They’ve allowed the South Dakota Democrat, an Air Force veteran and bioterror target, to be taunted like a traitor by Rush Limbaugh, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove and other tough-talkers who avoided military service as if it were anthrax.

<<<<<

So it was refreshing to hear at last from a patriot who found his voice and addressed the Republican Congressional leadership in the tone that they deserve. The first Democrat to speak up was, unsurprisingly, a Senator who has been both a war hero and a war protester.

On March 2, John Kerry took the podium at a political dinner in New Hampshire to defend Mr. Daschle, a colleague who is likely to become his rival for their party’s Presidential nomination. What the Massachusetts Senator said about Messrs. Lott and DeLay—and, by implication, about all the would-be White House enforcers—deserved more attention than a single article in his hometown paper, The Boston Globe.

"Let me be clear tonight to Senator Lott and to Tom DeLay: One of the lessons that I learned in Vietnam—a war they did not have to endure—and one of the basic vows of commitment that I made to myself, was that if I ever reached a position of responsibility, I would never stop asking questions that make a democracy strong," he told the audience of New Hampshire Democrats, whose startled murmurs quickly erupted into a standing ovation.

"Those who try to stifle the vibrancy of our democracy and shield policies from scrutiny behind a false cloak of patriotism miss the real value of what our troops defend and how we best defend our troops," he continued. "We will ask questions, and we will defend our democracy."

A combat veteran who received three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star in two Navy tours—and who later founded Vietnam Veterans Against the War—Mr. Kerry has ample stature to challenge the character assassins and commissars of the far right. The day after the Concord dinner, he didn’t hesitate to reiterate his rebuke, adding the name of another Southern-fried chicken hawk.

"My message to Trent Lott and Tom Delay and Dick Armey—each of whom did not have to endure the war in Vietnam … the lesson I learned in that war is, the best way to defend American democracy and our soldiers is to ask the right questions at the right time."

Suddenly, it was the Republicans who had nothing to say.

You may reach Joe Conason via email at: jconason@observer.com .

Reprinted from The New York Observer:
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
20. Finally........BALLINOS !!!!!!
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FSogol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
27. Webb = Virginia's next Senator
He-he Felix Allen Jr.

Repeat after me: Felix, Felix...
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