Democrats are ruining their 06 chances

[BayCityProgressive]

So I had a conversation with my mother tonight. Both of my parents are liberals and have never once voted GOP. They loved Carter and Clinton and always say "the Democratic Party sure isn't what it used to be". When Wellstone died they said " All of your run of the mill Democrats used to talk about poverty like this, so it is really sad that this guy is considered so liberal". Anyhow, in the conversation my mom said that my dad and her were not enthused at all about this years election and my mom said she probably wouldn't even vote. She was angry about the estate tax and how so many Dems voted for it and when I brought up the Iraq Debate from yesterday she said "They are all nuts, none of them know what they are doing or have a good plan at all, and even if they did Bush won't get us out of there so why even vote". Case and point that the party is killing their base.

[GOPBasher]

1. Sadly, I have heard the same from a friend's father. He

has always been about as die-hard a Democrat as you can get. He's an old union guy. He always donated to candidates and volunteered his time. He was very involved in Democratic politics and was well known to all the local Dem politicians. In the last year he has decided that he won't vote anymore, because the Dems have pissed him off so much. It's sad.

[aikoaiko]

2. sadly, I feel that way most days too. :-(

[rwheeler31]

3. This is so stupid

why do yo like what is going on in this country?

[Journeyman]

11. Deleted.

mainly cause I'm an idiot. . .

[eleny]

4. So a Repub Congress and president wil make your parents happy?

I think they'll come to their senses if they have any.

[Blue-Jay]

5. Whaaaaat?!?

Not one single piece of that rationale made sense to me.

[BayCityProgressive]

10. the point is

without the Dems complicity 1/2 of what the GOP has passed never could have gotten thru the house or senate...so if we change parties and Bush is still president...how much difference will it really make? Bush tax cuts-Dems voted for them, Estate tax cut-Demms voted for them, Against minimum wage-some dems actually did vote against it, iraq war- Dems voted for it, patriot act- dems voted for it, Homeland Security office and union busting- Dems voted for it....honestly guys you have to admit, the Dems have really sold us out.

[jwirr]

17. Both you and your parents need to learn to count. It is actually

irrelevant how Dems vote on any bill because we are the minority in both houses. That means that we lose.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[blm]

51. No - some TRADE THEIR VOTES to get a better bill - funny how so few

people understand that is how it happens.

If it didn't happen like that, our military would also be in Iran and Syrai right now in a full on WW3.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

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[jwirr]

49. *ss has had a rubber stamp congress made up of a pug

majority that is large enough to do whatever they want. Dems do not vote BECAUSE they are going to lose anyhow. When they know they cannot win they act to protect the Dem. seats we already hold. We argued this in 2004 about Dashle but no one could see that a Dashle in congress was better than a Thume. Yes, he needed to be replaced as the minority leader but we did not need to lose a seat in the Senate.

I looked to see who voted against the Lavin bill and Lieberman and Dayton are the only ones who have no excuse. Nelson(NE), NelsonFL), Pryor(AR), Landrieu(LA) are all running for Dem seats in conservative states. To get elected in a conservative state one needs to either be in a total black district or appear to be somewhat sensitive to the wishes of the people in your state. They are going to lose to pugs if they cow tow to us here on DU.

[DefenseLawyer]

6. Sorry

but if your parents can't see that the current Republican majority is perhaps the most corrupt and dangerous mob to ever hold power in this country and they buy into the inane "they have no plan" Fox News talking point, I think that falls on them, not the Democratic Party. No offense to your parents, but they do understand that the Democratic Party has no power in this current government, right?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

7. You didn't, in this post, explain what it is the Democrats are supposedly

doing, that is killing their base.

Aside from voting for the estate tax.

The part of your post that deals with Iraq is muddled and does not explain what the Democrats have done to sabotage themselves with people like your parents on this specific issue.

[BayCityProgressive]

13. I think the fact that

only 13 voted to get out of Iraq, and the rest voted for a nonbinding resolution that really shows nothing on what they would do differently.

[Mr_Spock]

8. The Dems are "out of power", so let's tacitly promote Republicans???

It's the classic argument for keeping the people in power because they seem more "powerful".

It's not only silly & faulty logic, but it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

This is a terrible post.

[Tarheel_Dem]

9. I don't agree with your parents, but.....

I do wish Dems could unite behind one simple, united message (no nuance) that makes sense to us regular joes. I'm am confused, and angry at the same time about the the two Iraq votes that came to the floor and were shot down. Why couldn't Senate Dems get behind one or the other? I mean, don't they talk to each other before these things get to the floor?

Now, we've got two Dem bills shot down in as many days.....Doesn't make for good headlines, heading into the mid-terms.

:edited for spelling:

[BayCityProgressive]

12. I Don't agree with them either

and my dad will probably vote grudgingly, but my mother probably will sit it out. She has done it before. I bet she wont be the only one. I think a LOT of blame needs to go on the DEMS for this. I am also sick of always saying "Im voting for them because I hate Republicans". Wow, what a rallying cry :yoiks:

[Mr_Spock]

15. Were they not pretty united behind the Levin/Reed bill?

Didn't 36 of 43 Dems vote for it? So what if 43 of 43 did? - I'm sure nobody here would be any happier.

[Tarheel_Dem]

48. point taken.....

but, why not just bring "one" or "the other" to the floor? I mean, the kerry/feingold or the levin/reed amendment. I just get so sick of hearing the media & talking heads saying that democrats have no plan, that we're "fractured". I realize that we have very few friends in the media, and we won't be able to count on them to help us take back our country. But, we have got to have a message that resonates, and that the entire party can get behind to show that we are united, and that we're up to the task of putting our country back on track.

[MindMatter]

14. This week's debate was the worst

I have no idea what Kerry thought he was accomplishing with that amendment. That had all the brilliance of the campaign he ran in 2004.

Instead of playing right into the GOP's "cut and run" rhetoric, they should be attacking the GOP on the points where they are vulnerable.

They should be putting forward a bill that says the USA will never build permanent bases in Iraq and the USA will turn all assets on Iraqi soil over to the Iraqis on January 1, 2007. Make the Republicans explain why they vote against that one.

How about a bill that puts Iraqis in charge of all the prisons, so the USA cannot have another torture scandal. Let's see the GOP vote against that one.

And a bill that puts Iraqis in charge of all the contracting with the reconstruction funds instead of grooving the prime contracts to Cheney's friends. Let's see the GOP vote against that one.

Kerry's moronic idea just made him, and the whole party, look ridiculous.

We need a few leaders with some functioning brain cells.

[jwirr]

18. Your idea would lose just as badly!

[MindMatter]

22. That completely misses the point.

The point is to frame the debate. It would be excellent to see those bills put down by the Republicans, because that would set the stage for a round of PR moves to show the GOP for what they really are.

There was no possible outcome of Kerry's bill that could be positive. His bill had no chance of passing, and lots of Democrats couldn't support it. It was a stupid idea that accomplished nothing.


Most of us don't want to just walk away. But we do want to see our coutry make good on its rhetoric to leave just as soon as Iraqis can manage themselves. The bills need to be framed to force the GOP to do xactly that or else explain why Bush is lying.

A bill don't have to win to be successful. But it does have to make a point, and the only point Kerry made is that the Democrats don't agree on anything. A lot of the public looks at that and says, "The Republicans scare me sometimes, but the damn Democrats don't seem to have any ideas at all." We are going to keep losing as long as this is the best our people can do. Or as Einstein said "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

[jwirr]

24. As far as I can see both Levin and Kerry's bill were aimed at the

same purpose - to end this illegal war. Hopefully the party will continue to put bills onto the floor that point out just who is supporting this war. All attempts are worthy as long as they get the attention of the public. That is about all we can do now. Keep the heat on the issues. Yes, we do need to learn to frame the issues.

[JanusAscending]

27. Did you watch, or listen to Kerrys entire amendemnt ?

Did you hear all of the old fashioned debate between Kerry and Warner? Unless you did , your views are just "right wing" talking points?? Are you sure you're on the right forum? You don't sound like a supporter to me, more like a disrupter.

[bling bling]

45. Typical.

You don't like what someone has to say so you infer that he or she is a "freeper." Yawn. I'm so tired of seeing that here. Not just by you but by all kinds of posters. By the way, that poster has been on DU longer than you. Or did you just look at the post count and make assumptions.

I have news for you. A *lot* of Dem's feel let down right now, neglected by our representatives who aren't representing us. Including me. I'm not here to "disrupt" your illusion of the wonderful job the Dem's are doing. But it would be nice if those of us who honesty and truly are democrats who also happen to feel discouraged could discuss it without it being insinuated that we're not really democrats.

[MindMatter]

52. That's just the point, isn't it?

No, I most certainly did not tune in to the hours of discussion about his amendment. That is exactly the point. He framed this thing in a way that was certain to lose support. He singlehandedly gave the GOP the biggest emotional victory on Iraq they have had in a long time.

Any argument that requires me to study for hours is a loser. That is Kerry and that is why he is a loser. That really is a microcosm of the Democrat Party today. Lost of long-winded dissertations that hedge in every direction, ultimately taking no clear position on anything. That is why we have lost badly 6 election cycles in a row.

There are simple, straightforward points that can be used to attack the the GOP very successfully on this Iraq fiasco, because the majority of the public is against the GOP on these points. I laid out several of these high-impact points-of-attack above and will not repeat myself here. None of those arguments requires the public to listen to hours of debate. People get these points instantly.

[JanusAscending]

54. Spoken like a true believer in "ignorance is bliss".

or someone with their head buried in the sand. You don't WANT Kerry to be right, therefore you don't give him or anyone else who knows better a chance. Keep on thinking the way you do. Someday very soon, you'll see how WRONG you are. You sound like my daughter when she was a teenager. You could talk 'til your were blue in the face, and if she didn't want to hear it, or if it was too much trouble to delve into the FACTS, she didn't!! Good luck, and I'm so happy for you that you can instantly figure things out for yourself!! You just keep believing what you want to. It seems a lot like the way Rove and Bush live in a reality all of their own.

[Erika]

20. That's your opinion

To think America wants Bush's Iraqi war to continue forever is insane.

Kerry served in war. He knows the damage done. Why you want to slam an American vet and our standard bearer defies reason.

[JanusAscending]

25. In my humble opinion,

Your statement is PURE BULLSHIT!! I really don't think you know what you are talking about! But this is just MY opinion!

[TayTay]

59. The no permanent bases idea

was put forth by Kerry in 2004. (Ahm, he mentioned it prominently at that sparesely attended and watched Foreign Policy debate that only 60 million or so people saw, so I can see where it might have been missed.)

There was an amendment that called for 'No permament bases in Iraq.' Kerry has talked about it repeatedly and it has been in his speeches about Iraq since '04 as well. Ahm, in case you haven't noticed, the Democrats don't control the Congress. (Not even a little.) They take things out of bills in the conference committees. (It was in all the papers, honest.)

Ahm, in addition, the Repubs held up the Defense Re-Authorization Act because Kerry had an amendment passed that merely *asked* for the DoD to do a report to a select Senate committee about the secret prisons thing. (Again, it was in all the papers. It really ticked off the House of Reps.)

No one is going to pass your, in some cases, moronic measures here. Democrats are not in charge. The Democrats can move the debate forward, but they do not control it. And your measures wouldn't have even garnered two votes anyway, they are not practical or usefull at all.

[Selatius]

16. There are two reasons why half of America doesn't even vote anymore

1. An inadequate education system leaves people confused with politics, so they don't vote out of ignorance or out of a lack of interest.

2. The two entrenched parties alienated voters in some way, shape, or form. They don't vote precisely because they believe they will get screwed if they put their trust in some stranger to make a decision for them.

The two are connected. The public education system is, like it or not, under the control of the party in power. If they want higher education standards, more qualified teachers, less bloat and bureaucracy, it will be done. Conversely, if they want to cut down education spending and ignore massive problems, then it will also be done. To be frank, the current education system is the product of several decades worth of corruption and incompetence through both Republican and Democratic administrations and a Congress that has swung both ways.

The cycle has almost become self-perpetuating.

[Erika]

31. The GOP has fought against public education and funding

The democrats have fought for its funding. A lot of difference. To link the two together is plain wrong.

[Selatius]

34. The two, I would argue, are linked

The whole reason why we have been neglecting social spending across the board has a lot to do with the amount of corporate special interest money circulating around in the election system. I would argue that if it weren't for that presence, we'd have our priorities straight in this nation. Just because a person is a Democratic officeholder does not mean he or she is not tempted or convinced to water down some of his or her policies to please some of his or her bigger corporate donors.

[Erika]

39. believe as you may

Why are you not talking about GOP officeholders?

[Selatius]

44. Because it's obvious they willingly take corporate donations.

There is no debate there.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

19. This is a wake call for Democrats! Period. End of sentence.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[Emit]

21. As a volunteer for my District, I recently lost a precinct captain for

similar reasons.

Here's part of my response to his Section Coordinator:

Anyway, after having ruminated on his email a bit longer, I guess I just feel that begging out from working to defeat the Repubs at this time, using the only vehicle we have available to us at the present time (the Dem Party), is not an option for me. I appreciate his idealism, but, realistically, if we all did this then we may as well just hand over our Democratic Republic to these Bush & Co. Military Industrial Complex/NeoCon/War Monger-Profiteers.

If they're going to steal elections and run rough shod over us, we can at least make them work for it.

[ladjf]

23. Regardless of what the Dems do or don't do, if a majority of the

American voters go for the Pubs, then America is simply too dumb to deserve a democratic, free society. This election ISN'T about what the Dems are doing, it's about what the people in office are doing. However, Rove is desperate to re-frame the issues. They have to stay with the Iraq policy, otherwise, it would corroborate what we all knew to be true, that the war was the worst blunder in American history.

America,wake up. There is going to be an IQ for us in November. Are we smart enough to pass it?

[Erika]

29. Yes. W's war against the Iraqis was the worst blunder in history

His dad had said there is no way to fight that war without world chaos. W believes you can toss everything into chaos and, thereby, build a better country.

1) Iraq isn't his to play with 2) they aren't lego pieces.

[ladjf]

37. We are in total agreement on this.

I've recently read that the depleted uranium that has been dumped all over Iraq by our military has a half-life of 4.5 billion years. That means for all practical purposes, much of, if not all of Iraq will prove to be uninhabitable. We could ultimately have a scenario where the only people there would be the oil extractors, dressed at all times in lead shielded bio-hazard suits.


There is no limit to the ignorance, greed, arrogance and cruelty of the Bush administration. I fear that maybe even the best efforts by all the rest of us will not be sufficient to get them out of power. Yet, we've no choice but to struggle and fight for America.

[Erika]

41. We don't need to fight our own n/t

[ladjf]

43. Our own are the leaders who consistently speak out against the

thugs that now run the Country. I'm speaking of the likes of Murtha, Feingold, Boxer, Conyers, Kuccinich, Gore and a number of other good ones. I don't think it's good strategy to blindly support every Democrat just because they are Democrat. The argument has been made that we should go easy on Lieberman because he's a Democrat and votes often votes that way. But, how can he be a positive leader when he continually backs the policies of the thug administration?

I know that you are very high on Kerry. I'm not. However, I voted for him in 2004 and would again in 2008 if he is the candidate. We could easily do a hell of a lot worse than Kerry. And, in fact, he's been coming on strong in past few weeks. My problem is that I can't get over the fact that he's about 2 years too late to stand up and start saying the things that should have been said in 2004.
I have no criticism of his work as a Senator. I simply believe that there are several Democrats who would be better Presidential candidates. Kerry could serve us better in the Senate.

But, like the Democrats in Congress, we may disagree on the exact evaluations of some of our leaders, but we most definitely agree that the primary political goal for America is get the thuggish Republican Party out of power. Because if we don't, some political entity from the outside will do it for us and we don't want that to happen.

[TomClash]

26. It's true - you sometimes wonder if it's not deliberate

As corporate money talks - that's how some Democrats walk.

I'm pretty sick of it too.

[Erika]

28. Rove expects dems to eat their own as a sign of weakness

We all need to think before we attack our own. Don't we have GOP targets worthy of that?

[seabeyond]

32. why vote? to get dem congress cause bush wont get out otherwise

your mother give the answer and it isnt the dems and then punishes the dems because of bush. wow

[Cocoa]

35. why don't they like the estate tax?

are they super-rich?

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Erika]

38. The GOP is in power - Please attack them with your questions

Shouldn't you be attacking them? They control how Iran will be treated, not the dems.

[Cocoa]

40. Iran Intelligence Oversight Act

support it!

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=67761

The Iran Intelligence Oversight Act will:

-- Require an updated national intelligence estimate on Iran with an unclassified summary available to inform debate by Congress and the American people

-- Require the President to report to Congress on his objectives regarding Iran and his strategy for achieving them

-- Require the Director of National Intelligence to report to Congress on the current policies and practices for vetting and clearing statements of senior Administration officials that are drawn from intelligence; how significant misstatements of intelligence in public statements of senior public officials are identified, brought to the attention of any such officials, and corrected; and recommend any process improvements.

[Erika]

42. Congress saying whoa to a corporate GOP stallion n/t

[applegrove]

46. That isn't what the polls say. Consistantly over the last year they have

shown people fired up about the creepiness and lies and purposeful government non-problem-solving of this Bush WH.

[Clarkie1]

47. That's why the 13 did more harm than good.

"They are all nuts, none of them know what they are doing or have a good plan at all, and even if they did Bush won't get us out of there so why even vote"

I doubt the perception of "not knowing what they are doing" would have been as strong if the 13 had united with their fellow Democrats. And she is of course right about any arbitrary deadline passed by the senate being meaningless.

[bigtree]

50. Cynicism kills

not voting is as hurtful as the rest

[Ksec]

53. Pick a side and go with it Democrats.

I understand the big tent thing, but our leaders need to stop being cowards and start calling a spade a spade.

Just say we are against the war, and go with it. This wishy washy politics are just playing into karl roves plan for us. Be proud and strong. Stand up for what you believe and say so. Stop being afraid to say where you stand. Until we do that the people will think we have no spine, and the elections will continue the way they have .

[ecstatic]

55. Why is it so hard for Dems to say: BRING THEM HOME, NOW!

See, that's what's causing the disgust among so many people. I really don't blame your parents.

[pooja]

56. By not voting, you are making the choice to keep the same

partyline in... its stupid.

but I think the seniors are getting pissed off about that savior of a prescription plan... I don't think repugs realize how much they are affecting the majority who vote, who participate in elections, and who are on fixed incomes... Also, their grandkids are being dying in a foreign country and Repugs aren't producing anything... This makes a huge differenc.

I think they are past gay marriage when in most states its not allowed and i think they are past the burning flag issue.. Didn't we do all this in the 60's

[skipos]

57. Thank God I don't know many people like that.

I know there are lot of people out there who give up or don't care, but I am fortunate enough to have friends and family who are fighters. It probably helps that I have a small family, and a small group of friends!

[SammyWinstonJack]

58. Well my parents are solid Democrats, life long Democrats and they

are involved Democrats in their community. My Dad is Democratic precinct chair and he and my Mom can't wait to vote in '06! for Democrats and the Democratic Party! So there you have it!

[jerry611]

60. Most of my family are independants

They don't affiliate with a political party. They vote for the candidate they think is the best. Sometimes it is a Democrat, other times it is a Republican.

My mother once said to me that anyone who goes into a voting both and votes just on the basis of political party is a fool and a pawn.

[Lady President]

61. They're looking for a personality

No offense to your parents, but they appear to be searching for a personality that appeals to them. Clinton and Wellstone were both charismatic, but they are not very similar in their politics. Clinton is a moderate. Wellstone was a liberal. They represent different portions of the Party-- which to me indicates how broad our "base" really is.

I hope your parents find someone that they like. I hate to hear that Dems. aren't voting. On the flip side, I'm a big believer that if you don't vote, then don't complain.