CSPAN: did I just hear that people are going broke paying the death tax?

[LSK]

People are suffering from inheriting millions of dollars?????????

The republicans are getting absurd with their reasoning.

:wtf:

[originalpckelly]

1. It's a real shame isn't it?

Poor people might not have to buy the fourth new vacation home. THE HORROR!!!!

[Beelzebud]

2. Oh the poor rich!

[AlCzervik]

3. hmm, did they talk about the toddler tax yet? you know the one

the every child is born with?

[halobeam]

4. I'd like to get that answer too. I didn't see it.

I figure another WTF moment right before I go out would suffice. I wouldn't know what to do without my quota for the day.

So here I go......

honestly, :wtf:

[LSK]

5. awwww the poor "nonexistant" families have to sell the businesses

What will they do with the $2million + they get from the sale????

:cry:

:sarcasm:

[Wickerman]

6. Poor estate planning does not merit the cancellation

of the estate tax. If you were able to accumulate enough wealth to actually have to worry about the tax you certainly should be able to arrange for the inheritance to be a windfall for the heir(s), not something that causes them financial ruin. :eyes: Desperation - only excuse. The corporate masters have spoken and the pols have to figure out a way to do their bidding. Lies and obfuscation seem to be all they have in that bag of tricks.

[Selatius]

7. If my father gave me 10,000,000 when he dies, and the gov't took...

8,000,000 of it and left me with 2,000,000 and I went broke because I knew I had a big payday coming so I spent 6,000,000 in the previous several years and still owed people that money, that's my fault for not being fiscally responsible, not the government's fault.

[LSK]

12. you would keep 6 million, not 2 million

2 million free and clear, then 49% tax on the rest is the current law. (I think)

[MallRat]

16. Easy explanation.

If my father gave me 10,000,000 when he dies, and the gov't took 8,000,000 of it and left me with 2,000,000 and I went broke because I knew I had a big payday coming so I spent 6,000,000 in the previous several years and still owed people that money...

Then you'd be a Republican.

-MR

[progressoid]

8. Yep, it's true. There is a 110% tax rate on the wealthy.

The way things are going all the rich will be poor soon!

:sarcasm:

[Rose Siding]

9. The Estate Tax

Please. And as long as they still have more than min wage, apparently they'll be ok.

[A HERETIC I AM]

42. Here Here! "Estate Tax"...NOT "Death Tax"

Death Tax is rethug speak. Give it a nasty sounding name and people will hate it. They would have you believe it is hurting Mr. & Mrs. Average American when what it mostly does is keep oligarchies from forming.

Yes...it's a shame that the inheritors of DuPont and 3M and (insert major corporation here) family wealth cant keep every fucking penny.

[joneschick]

10. um, yeah, that's so sad

:sarcasm:

[Norquist Nemesis]

11. I had to mute it whenever the Cons start *cough* talking

It's funny that the Gallery keeps cheering for Dems (and getting chastised by the Speaker LOL!) Can't wait till they start booing the Cons!!! :rofl:

[me b zola]

13. It's obscene

One pub was saying that his family members of "modest means" were affected by this. :wtf:

They are straight out lying about this affecting small family farms--that shit has been debunked.

[LSK]

15. IIIFFFFF it was true, sell the farm for MILLIONS

AND FUCKING RETIRE ALREADY.

:grr:

[Arkansas Granny]

41. What does he call "modest means"? The tax only applies to

estates over $2,000,000.00! To me, that qualifies for a little more than "modest means".

[me b zola]

51. Obscene & absurd

Then WTH do they think about the people who live on minimum wage? Are the majority of Americans just so far beneath them that our standard of living doesn't even registar on their radar? Do they see us as pets?

Sometimes I think that my head is going to explode :nuke:

[MallRat]

I suppose if someone inherited a whole lotta illiquid assets, maybe.

But you'd have to be a complete idiot to allow that to happen to your heirs.

Are you telling me that someone with a multimillion-dollar estate doesn't know to set up a friggin' trust for his beneficiaries?

-MR

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. Heirs have a period of years

to pay the estate tax.

Plenty of time to liquidate even the most illiquid assets.

[sweetheart]

14. broke from the war tax...

some of them killed outright for the tax, others taxed 20K each, going broke!

[napi21]

17. I wasn't watching so I don't know, but believe it or not,

I heard a story on some progressive radio program of a situation that really was almost that bad.

This lady said her parents inherited a large parcel of land with a home on it. The inheritance taxes were very large and they were forced to sell the property. It actually sold for a lot less than the Feds valued it, so they not only didn't get any $$, but had to actually pay $$ in taxes beyond the selling price.

This CAN happen, because it happened to me on a much smaller scale. I inherited my mother's home, and the feds used the local tax records" to set the value. I had it for sale for almost 9 months, and had to reduce the price 4 times before it finally sold at a lot less $$. Now, in my case, I was only talking about $1,200 in excess tax, but when I contacted the authorities, they said all I had to do was provide proof of what the property had actually sold for and I would get a refund. Apparently the lady I heard was never told that, and she's VERY bitter about the whole thing.

If you heard people are going broke paying the death tax, they're obviously blowing smoke again, but it really is sad that many people just don't know how things work, and are therefore harmed.

[LSK]

21. the old law was $600,000 exemption, now its $2million

So these homes were worth more than that? :shrug:

[Viva_La_Revolution]

30. it rises to $3.5 Million in 2009

Double for Couples

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. More to the point, for the anecdote to be true

Under current law (which is fair to assume since we're debating the injustice of it) An inherited home appraised at $10mm would have to sell for less than $3.5mm. A $5mm home must sell for less than $1.4mm. A $2mm estate transfers tax-free.

[sinkingfeeling]

27. Here's what the IRS has to say...

Most relatively simple estates (cash, publicly-traded securities, small amounts of other easily-valued assets, and no special deductions or elections, or jointly-held property) with a total value under $1,000,000 do not require the filing of an estate tax return. The amount was $1,500,000 in 2004 and 2005. For 2006 through 2008, the amount is raised to $2,000,000.

So, I guess your mother's home was valued at more than $1 million?

[CAcyclist]

46. Sounds like that story she told was made up, then

Why do people assume that unverifiable stories that support Republican nonsense are the truth? Most of the time they are totally fabricated.

[loveable liberal]

18. Eat the Rich!! nt

[Beelzebud]

19. According to Roy Blunt, people aren't getting rich because they

don't want to pay the estate tax...

Yeah. Tahts the reason. I don't know about you DUers, but I personally have not gotten rich because of the estate tax. :D

LOL What a bunch of pigs...

[LSK]

26. yeah, thats why I LOVE my cubicle job from 9-5

I dont want to get rich and loose it when I die. :wtf:

[Hugin]

20. Repealing the Death-o-tax will cause... INFLATION!

The SKY IS FALLING!

:runningaroundpanicsmilie:

[LSK]

31. meanwhile Uncle Ben is killing the stock market because of

INFLATION!!!

:scared:

[Hugin]

37. *blots eyes* n/t

[Hugin]

40. I cry myself to sleep every night thinking of the burden my step-daughter

must bear to pay the taxes off my 1977 Buick LeSabre and my palatial 1,200 sq foot bung-alow!

WHAAAAAAAAA!

[Viva_La_Revolution]

22. refuting the talking points...

for instance...

The New York times has reported that the American Farm Bureau could not cite a single case of a family farm lost due to the Estate Tax

more - http://www.ombwatch.org/budget/pdf/impactonfarmsandbusinesses.pdf

[Beelzebud]

23. Richard Neal just nailed them: The Paris Hilton Estate Tax Repeal.

LOL That was great.

[Bozita]

36. Yup, the Paris Hilton Inheritance Tax Insurance Act

[Norquist Nemesis]

47. Actually, the Paris Hilton Welfare Program

since WE have to make up the shortfall.

[pooja]

24. the only time this is a negative thing is with farmers

Often times, farm land and equip and etc. is valued as an inheritance.. and if you die and pass the farm onto your family... they may have estate tax to pay. But it has to be a large farm.. we aren't talking about a few acres, a horse, and a pig like repugs like you to think.

[LSK]

28. wheres the law that fixes the farm problem then???

I dont see it being proposed by the GOP.

[sinkingfeeling]

29. Besides, between spouses most property is owned 'in joint with

rights of surviorship' and passes without any taxation.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

32. Myth 3:

Myth 3: Many small, family-owned farms and businesses must be liquidated to pay estate taxes.


Reality: The number of small, family-owned farms and businesses that owe any estate tax is small — and shrinking rapidly.
Despite oft-repeated claims that the estate tax has dire consequences for family farms and small businesses, there is in fact very little evidence that it has an outsize impact on these groups. Indeed, the American Farm Bureau Federation acknowledged to the New York Times that it could not cite a single example of a farm having to be sold to pay estate taxes.

Most recently, an analysis by the Congressional Budget Office confirms that exceedingly few family farms and small businesses face the estate tax (http://www.cbpp.org/7-11-05tax.htm and http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/65xx/doc6512/07-06-EstateTax.pdf). The CBO report found that if the current exemption level of $2.0 million had been in place in 2000, only 123 farm estates and only 135 family-owned businesses nationwide would have owed any estate tax. The number of taxable farm estates drops to 65 nationwide at a $3.5 million exemption level, the level that takes effect in 2009. The number of taxable family-owned business estates falls to just 94 under the $3.5 million exemption.

The CBO report also found that of the few farm and family business estates that would owe any estate tax, the vast majority would have sufficient liquid assets (such as bank accounts, stocks, bonds, and insurance) in the estate to pay the tax without having to touch the farm or business. For instance, of the 65 farm estates that would have owed tax under a $3.5 million exemption, just 13 would have faced liquidity constraints.

Analyses by the Urban Institute-Brookings Institution Tax Policy Center also find that that few small businesses and farms are subject to the estate tax (http://www.cbpp.org/3-16-05tax.htm).

http://www.cbpp.org/pubs/estatetax.htm

[Hugin]

Pssst...

Is it okay if I just follow you around reading your myth debunkings?

I'm learning... I'm learning...

:thumbsup:

[Viva_La_Revolution]

44. ain't Google a wonderful thing!

no following allowed though. Step right up here beside me. :)

[acmejack]

33. Why are you using RepubliCON talking Points? I refer you to post 22!

That is fact, you are working in the world of fantasy! Or can you produce a link to a case where this has actually occured? I challenge you to produce a single case...

[Bozita]

34. In 2000, the NYT sent reporters looking for just such farms

They found none.

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. A couple of observations;

1) I don't really understand why farms are a special category of business. Why is the family dry-cleaning business treated differently?
2) From CBPP
"Opponents of the estate tax frequently assert that avoiding the destruction of family
farms is one of their primary goals in repealing the tax. As Senator Jon Kyl (R-AZ) said
yesterday, “the special interests we’re trying to protect here are the family-owned
businesses, the family farms.” But Congress has enacted a variety of generous targeted
tax breaks for family farms over the past thirty years.
* For most decedents, the taxable value of an estate is based on its market value;
a home that is worth $1 million is valued, for estate tax purposes, at $1 million.
But for farm estates, a much more generous measure of value is used. Farm
properties can be valued according to their “current use” as farmland, which is
typically much lower than its value for sale or development purposes. The
reduction in taxable value due to the current use break is capped at $900,000 in
2006. This amount is adjusted upwards annually for inflation, so by 2011 this
provision will likely shelter more than $1 million of farm value from tax.
* Farm estates are allowed the same basic exemption that is available to nonfarm
estates. In 2006, the first $2 million of an estate’s value ($4 million for
married couples) is exempt. In 2011, the exemption will fall back to $1 million
($2 million for couples). The basic exemption is not indexed for inflation, so the
$1 million exemption will be worth less in 2011 than it would be today.
* Farms can also receive an extra exemption on top of this basic exemption. If a
working family farm comprises at least half the value of an estate, an extra
$300,000 exemption is available in 2011. This amount is also not indexed for
inflation.
* For farms that incur some estate tax liability despite these special tax breaks,
heirs are given an extended grace period to pay the tax. For most estates, taxes
are due nine months after a death; for qualifying farm estates, decedents are
given a four-year grace period (although interest is charged for the first four
years, with a 2 percent interest rate applying to the first $1 million of taxable
value), and then can pay the remaining tax bill over a period of ten years—
giving heirs of taxable farm estates 14 years to pay the tax."

So, inheritors of farms inherit assets with an artificially deflated value, with an opportunity to gift shares of the farm to the kids each year, with an extra exemption above and beyond the $2mm available to all estates, AND they get 14 years to pay the tax.

Their deal is good enough.

[serryjw]

63. READ the above

There was NOT ONE farm that was subject to inheritance tax. We either have small family farms or HUGE corporate one...nothing in between.

[zulchzulu]

35. Cocaine is probably the real reason...

The top .001% are "going broke"...i.e. now only worth tens of millions instead of a hundred million...

[spag68]

38. estate tax

First of all this tax is mostly on things that have never been taxed before. Second which os us here would not trade our situation to one in which we would have to think about an estate tax?

[Viva_La_Revolution]

43. damn straight! I much rather have to worry about that than

how to pay the gas bill and still eat.


Myth 7: The estate tax constitutes "double taxation" because it applies to assets that already have been taxed once as income.


Reality: Large estates are comprised mostly of "unrealized" capital gains that have never been taxed; the estate tax is the only means of taxing this income.
Income taxes on the appreciation of assets, such as real estate or artwork, are only paid when the asset is sold. Therefore, the increase in the value of an asset is never subject to income tax if the asset is held until a person dies. These "unrealized" capital gains can make up a significant share of an estate’s total value (http://www.cbpp.org/6-17-05tax.htm), especially among large estates — the ones likely to owe estate tax.

One reason the estate tax was created was to serve as a backstop to the income tax, taxing income that was never taxed under the income tax. That is, the taxation of this income is essentially deferred and ultimately taxed for the first time through the estate tax.

[spag68]

48. repeat

this a million times, maybe the springer triangle people will get the message that this will not get any of their money.

[TahitiNut]

50. It's appalling how many people don't comprehend this or lie about it.

There is ABSOLUTELY no decent reason, in equity or fairness, to repeal the estate tax. None. The LIES abound. Instead of "double taxation" it's NO taxation on HUGE parts and DISCOUNT taxation on the rest. Income on one's own labor is taxed the most and income from the labor of others or the death of others is taxed the least. The estate tax, if anything, should be increased!

[LSK]

49. fuck you and your comprimise, its not fucking needed at all

:grr: :grr: :grr:

[MadHound]

52. True story to counter this shit

About seven years ago, my father passed away. My sister and I inheirited the family farm, two houses, monetary assets, investment assets, and various interesting antiques that were/are worth some serious cash. I have heard the 'Pug spin on this scenario, that people are going in debt, going broke to keep the family farm they inheirited, all due to the death tax. Guess what amount of estate tax we had to pay.

A big, whopping $0.00.

Interestingly enough though, since our latest govenor Matt Blunt took office in '04 and slashed state spending to the bone, our property tax on said family farm has risen twice now. Now then, which agenda and program is bleeding middle class and ordinary people dry?

Certainly not the estate tax. But we're now paying through the nose on property tax. And since I am occupied with my own operation, and my sister isn't a farmer, the good ol' family farm is going untended, unworked, and isn't paying for itself. We are now seriously considering selling it, even though it would pain us greatly, simply in order to stop being bled dry by ever increasing property taxes.

[serryjw]

64. A typical situation

IF you were going to be involved..you would have been already. MOST heirs have their own life and want no part of the family business. I lived in a HUGE super nice mobile home park in Florida. When the elderly parent died, the kids lived somewhere else in the country, they wanted no part of the mobile home.....a TON up for sale.

ONE question

I understand that inheritance passes to the spouse none taxed. What I don't understand is when they say single exemption is X and marital is Y. What happens when ONE spouse leaves all assets to other spouse and then LATER the 2nd spouse dies. Do the heirs pay under the single or marital deduction?

Explanation, someone, please!

[LSK]

53. they are arguing

:popcorn:

[Beelzebud]

54. Wow!! Rep Hoyer is pissed off!

Sounds like the American Nazi party just tried to stop a procedural vote.

[Idioteque]

55. Steny Hoyer is pissed...yelling at the chair. n/t

[Viva_La_Revolution]

56. Drama on the Floor!

:popcorn:

[KansDem]

57. Did they mention that 18 families are pushing to repeal the estate tax?

April 25, 2006

Public Citizen and United for a Fair Economy Expose Stealth Campaign of Super-Wealthy to Repeal Federal Estate Tax

Report Identifies 18 Families Behind Multimillion-Dollar Deceptive Lobbying Campaign

WASHINGTON, D.C. – The multimillion-dollar lobbying effort to repeal the federal estate tax has been aggressively led by 18 super-wealthy families, according to a report released today by Public Citizen and United for a Fair Economy at a press conference in Washington, D.C. The report details for the first time the vast money, influence and deceptive marketing techniques behind the rhetoric in the campaign to repeal the tax.

It reveals how 18 families worth a total of $185.5 billion have financed and coordinated a 10-year effort to repeal the estate tax, a move that would collectively net them a windfall of $71.6 billion.

The report profiles the families and their businesses, which include the families behind Wal-Mart, Gallo wine, Campbell’s soup, and Mars Inc., maker of M&Ms. Collectively, the list includes the first- and third-largest privately held companies in the United States, the richest family in Alabama and the world’s largest retailer.

These families have sought to keep their activities anonymous by using associations to represent them and by forming a massive coalition of business and trade associations dedicated to pushing for estate tax repeal. The report details the groups they have hidden behind – the trade associations they have used, the lobbyists they have hired, and the anti-estate tax political action committees, 527s and organizations to which they have donated heavily.

--more--

http://www.citizen.org/pressroom/release.cfm?ID=2182

[Hugin]

61. Yeah, but, don't they have to die to get it?

Wow, if this passed I'd be watching the kids real close like, youknow.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

62. Thank you! I was looking for that link.

:)

[Beelzebud]

58. This is what fascism looks like.

[LSK]

59. who is chairing?? they are not allowing a vote

[Beelzebud]

60. Tom Price (R)

[leeroysphitz]

65. You heard right.

And if you believe it then maybe you will also believe that increasing the minimum wage HURTS workers, or that we are FIGHTING for PEACE, maybe huge tax cuts for the WEALTHIEST helps POOR people and my personal favorite: in order to remain FREE we must surrender our FREEDOMS.

Nearly 50 percent of your fellow American voters bought all of that hook line and sinker in the last presidential election.

Is it BIZZARO WORLD?