George Washington "Cut & Ran"!

[ProfessorGAC]

The father of the country, hero of the Revolution, first president of the United States, and all that, has been revered in history for a tactical decision to boat it out of New York in the middle of the night, so the Britsh wouldn't destroy his army.

He didn't "stay the course". He didn't worry about "those already killed dying in vain". He didn't worry about "losing credibility".

He worried that more men would die if he didn't get the heck out of there. He worried that the whole cause would go up in flames if that was the decisive event.

He "cut & ran". Know what? It worked. He prevailed.
The Professor

[meegbear]

1. George Washington "Mongrelled & Ran"?

:shrug:

[ProfessorGAC]

2. Sorry About That

I fixed it.
The Professor

[Vidar]

3. There you go; George Bush has surrendered New York too.

[ProfessorGAC]

4. But, Washington Won BY Cutting & Running

So, apparently Silverspoon would call George Washington a defeatist, even though he prevailed.

Why does George W. Bush hate George Washington?
The Professor

[Uncle Joe]

40. Because George Washington represents the truth,

ie: cutting down the cherry tree myth, Bush is allergic to the truth. George Washington was against becoming a king, Bush wants nothing more than absolute rule. George Washington risked his life for and swore to uphold the Constitution, Bush believes it's just a piece of paper.

[NewJeffCT]

5. And, the Brits "redeployed" out of Dunkirk

another spectacular failure.

[ProfessorGAC]

6. And, Had They Stayed The Course. . .

. . .Hitler would have conquered Europe.

So, apparently "cutting & running" is a sound strategy, if you're smart enough to recognize a quagmire.
The Professor

[NewJeffCT]

7. And who in the WH has shown these 'smarts'?

Anybody? Hello?

Didn't think so.

[ProfessorGAC]

9. No Argument From Me

I think my point is that there is a simple rhetorical device to turn the "cut & run" tactics of the repubs. You're adding Dunkirk to the mix is just another bullet in the gun. But, i think the George Washington thing has a way of shutting them up.
The Professor

[hobbit709]

8. Hitler wouldn't admit defeat

just like shrub and it cost him the 6th Army at Stalingrad.

[teknomanzer]

25. Oh yeah...

Hitler was definitely a "stay the course" type of character. He also would only except the rosiest picture of his eastern campaign. Believed in "providence" Gott mit uns, and all that. Loved to dress up in military style clothing too.

I guess we can credit Hitler with at least having the courage to actually serve in the military. Idiot, racist, genocidal, fascist, bastard... yes. Chickenhawk... no.

[hobbit709]

27. Hitler also

had a better command of his native language

[ProfessorGAC]

29. LOL!

Very good cap to that part of the discussion! Funny stuff!
The Professor

[bigbrother05]

38. Napoleon had problems with the Russians too.

The Russians and others had problems in Afghanistan.
The French had trouble in Viet Nam.
The British had trouble in Iraq.

A lot of prior "stay the course" failures don't seem to deter someone that thinks with their gut and feel chosen to lead. A little introspection is a good thing when you wield the levers of great power.

[Philosoraptor]

10. He cut and run and created a nation.

There is NO SHAME in retreat when the battle is lost.

[ProfessorGAC]

11. Exactly My Point

And, the repukes cannot besmirch George Washington and his tactics, because we could ask them "Why do hate america?" I think the whole cut & run political strategy can be defeated with this simple reference to Washington.
The Professor

[klook]

31. Correct, no shame in retreating appropriately

--especially when the entire basis for the war is bogus.

[NewJeffCT]

12. We also cut & ran out of Vietnam

and, now we outsource jobs there and they are our allies.

[jerry611]

13. Retreat is different from surrender

Cut and run is what we did in Vietnam. It's basically a surrender. You give up the war.

Retreat is when you pull back, regroup, and prepare for another offensive.

[riderinthestorm]

14. Yes but since *'s whole premise is that we are in a global war on terra

and obviously the whole Iraq "front" isn't working so well, the Professor's OP is still an apt analogy.

There's a whole world of battlefields - time to "cut and run" on this front, just like Washington.

[Cha]

24. And since bush going in with

bombs created the whole Terrorist network in Iraq, it is definetly time to CUT AND RUN LIKE YOUR LIFE DEPENDED ON IT!

[ProfessorGAC]

15. Wrong

He cut and ran. You can try to play all the rhetorical games you want. He CUT his losses, he RAN away to fight another day.

I don't think you want to get into this rhetorical game. Hitler's troops RETREATED from Stalingrad. Which offensive were they preparing for after "regrouping"? Oh yeah. There was none.

The Professor

[teknomanzer]

28. You can't call it a surrender...

Did the Vietnamese nationalists win? Certainly. Did the United States lose? If speaking in terms of US policy achieving its goals both declared and undeclared, then yes the US lost. But the United States did not surrender to the Vietnamese. US territory is not being occupied by the Vietnamese. Our aggression was simply repelled.

Cut and run is not surrender. Sometimes its living to fight another day like Washington's retreat or the evacuation of Dunkirk. Other times its lets get out before we really lose our shirts, as in Vietnam.

Surrender requires being taken captive.

[klook]

32. Thank you!

Good summary of retreat vs. surrender.

[opihimoimoi]

16. In Poker, its called "Folding...."

Gatta know when to foldum, gatta know when to go ALL IN.

[ProfessorGAC]

17. There You Go!

Every fold is not defeat. You're only defeated when you're out of chips. And, if you put all your chips in when your holding a pair of twos, you get what you get.
The Professor

[riderinthestorm]

18. This works whether you believe Iraq is all about

an oil grab or whether you believe there really is a global war on terra.

The insurgents are sabotaging oil production as fast as we can put it back together so that's a bust for the oil barons. And Iraq really is becoming the new terrorist training ground of the future the longer we stay there, another reason to get the hell out.

The only level this analogy doesn't work is the one where BFEE and Cheney's arms dealing lose out on profiting from this clusterfuck of death.

Having to work in the secrecy of intelligence to prevent attacks isn't nearly as profitable as all out "war" with all of the guns, tanks, planes, bombs, supply lines and all the other areas where the profiteers can plunder the treasury.

This Admin are such treasonous traitors to America. The best thing our country could do right now is "cut and run" unless you're a greedy SOB trying to grab your cash and stuff it down your pants as fast as you can before the masses wake up.

[ProfessorGAC]

19. That's A Good Catch!

If the whole thing is a treasury looting scheme, then they can't cut & run because there's no profit in it. Good call.
The Professor

[Cha]

26. You've laid it out pretty

good, riderinthestorm! This is why they're not "cutting and running" but they can't very well state this so they have to come up with .."If we pull out now the soldiers would have died in vain"..

[cynatnite]

20. Didn't MacArthur 'cut and run'?

What about Raygun? Didn't he 'cut and run', too?

[ProfessorGAC]

23. Yep

Another good catch. Perhaps a whole list of "cut & run" heroes can be compiled to stomp down this nonsense.
The Professor

[tomp]

21. k&r -based on logic and tactics

we do need to oppose such trite jingoist memes as "cut and run". we need to get dem politicians to fight the meme.

[ProfessorGAC]

22. Thanks Tom

That's exactly what i'm trying to do. Find a way to neutralize the silly rhetorical grenades of the radical right.
The Professor

[Hubert Flottz]

30. That's the trouble with the guys running a war not having military

minds. They cut and ran from the draft boards when their country needed them and it was their turn to do their duty. Cowards do not make good military leaders!

[ProfessorGAC]

33. They Don't Make Very Good Logicians Either

It's illogical to pursue this "cut & run" democrats thing for the election when it's so easily defusable.

More evidence of their "dumbassedness".
The Professor

[Igel]

34. I'll disagree.

You're futzing with the definitions inappropriately. GW finished what he started. He finished the course, under most construals of what the course was. The course wasn't the battle, at this remove; the course was the war.

Germany, Russia and Britain each stayed the course in WWII. Dunkirk did not mean Britain was dropping out of the war. France did not stay the course, unless we define the course as "for as long as we run", but that reduces 'stay the course' to a tautology: "run for as long as one runs". They surrendered early in the war and withdrew their forces while the other horses continued racing. Defeat of some of the allies constituted their forced non-staying of the course, I'd say, but that's a matter of perspective.

Stalin redefined the course, or at least a course, mid-race. Stalingrad was a subcourse. He declared Stalingrad to be the end of the line: not one step back. It was a necessary redefinition, an intermediate-term goal. One needs victories after a string of losses, however you define them--as long as they're not trivial. But a victory necessarily requires a finish line: victory conditions.

Staying the course can result in defeat. Germany's, for instance, or the British defeat in the Rev. War. In this case, surrender wasn't not staying the course, it determined when the course ended. Retreat is odd: it's a defeat, of sorts, but often not a real defeat. Depends on the course. :-)

[ProfessorGAC]

You'll Disagree? You're Agreeing With Me Completely

They're the ones futzing with definitions. Everything you wrote supports my point in every way. How can you miss that?

Every one of you arguments supports that cutting and running is often the prudent short term, & most productive long term strategy.

Besides, the overall purpose of the OP is to provide some way to easily defuse the silly repub "cut & run" talking point. I'm shocked that you missed that.
The Professor

[Sammy Pepys]

35. But the Revolution didn't end because of it....n/t

....

[ProfessorGAC]

36. Yes And?

Boy, a bunch of folks have really missed the point. The point is Sam, that cutting and running is not an inherently bad or ignoble tactic. Sometimes it is the right thing to do.
The Professor

[Sammy Pepys]

37. GW "cut and ran" from NY...

...for the purpose of preserving his forces to continue fighting the Revolution. That's not the same kind of cutting and running we're talking about in Iraq.

[Canuckistanian]

39. They cut and ran in 1812, too!

That's why I don't speak American.

[Hubert Flottz]

41. They cut and ran at first Bull Run too.

And was lucky to get away! I hope their luck holds out in Iraq.

Edit ... Now mind you that...Iraq is just one theater in this "World Wide War on Terra" We still have Iran, North Korea, France and don't forget Poland, China, Russia, Lower Slobovia, Boogerglob, the Entire middle east, the South Pacific, the Moon, Mars and all points in between, to invade yet! If we kill everybody who's big enough to die, in all those places, we won't EVER have to worry about fighting them over here..."Shoes for industry!" "Where There's Smoke Their's Work!" "Get Thee Behind Me!"

[Hubert Flottz]

42. K&R

Kick one time for George Bushco the GROFAZ...Grosster Feldherr aller Zeiten(a legend in his own mind)

VOYAGES with HITLER

snip>

After June 1944, his Generals called Hitler GROFAZ
("Grosster Feldherr aller Zeiten" or Greatest Military Genius of
all Times), a ironical nickname given when it was obvious to
everybody except to the Fuehrer that the War was lost. Alas it was
too late to refuse to take this clown seriously.

Because from 1933 to 1945, this self-taught Grofaz, surrounded by
a handful of megalomaniac sycophants or hysterical thugs,
resuscitated the worst of Luther's anti-semitism whom he
considered "the great German genius", rejected Descartes,
spurned the whole humanist culture, trampled on reason, invoked
Jesus Christ and Lucifer, Nietzsche and Schopenhauer together,
tamed Europe, exterminated millions of Jews and nearly
conquered the world. Sixty years later, people still do not
comprehend the phenomenon.

It is established that some factors made Hitler's road to total
power easier : they are

* long-term bitterness (about the Treaty of Versailles)
* ineffective Weimar Constitution
*money and businessmen
* propaganda
* demagogic program
* attacks on other parties like the Jews, any political opponents
and even the SA
* personal qualities of Hitler like oratory talents and magnetism
* economic depression of the early 30s
* and eventually Hindenburg's support. More........

http://schikelgruber.net/