Public schools will never be as good as private schools.

[Dark]

And that does not bother me.

I am so sick of hearing about 'private schools can do this, and this, and this. . .'

You know why they can do that? You know why private is better than public?

Because private schools HAVE to be better than public schools. It's capitalism.

Few would pay $5,000 a year to send their kids to a private school if FREE public schools were just as good. Private schools have to do better than public schools in order to stay afloat.

Not to mention public schools pay teachers better, much better. Every teacher at my private school was either married to someone who had a job or worked a second job besides teaching. They were making about 60 cents for every dollar public school teachers make in my state. So of course public schools cost more. They don't pay their teachers slave wages.

However, eliminate the public school system, and suddenly private schools have no free competition. They can raise their prices and lower their standards, and no one can do a damn thing about it. The poor will again get screwed.

[rfranklin]

1. Private schools are more selective...

If students cause problems they do not have to be tolerated.

They don't have students from poor, dysfunctional households.

Many of the private schools I have firsthand knowledge of do not require teachers to have the same level of expertise that is required in public schools.

[fasttense]

2. Not to mention private schools can pick and choose their students.

Do you think for one minute if a private industry were running our schools, they would take in the children with emotional problems, the handicapped and homeless? Well of course not. Where is the profit in that?

[Dark]

14. Some would, some wouldn't.

I think that there are some christian schools that would (my private high school had mentally challenged kids). But I know of other private high schools that didn't take mentally challenged kids.

[Hamlette]

57. they may take mentally challenged but not disruptive

which means all the disruptive, difficult, delinquent kids will be in public schools, which will cause a faster move to private schools.

Which is not even my biggest gripe with private schools. My biggest gripe is the parents who send their kids there are the same parents who, if there kids were in public schools, would monitor the school and make sure it was properly funded and staffed and their kids were taken care of. All of them leave and the only people left in public schools are the the disenfranchised. And the public schools get worse. Can you say two tier society?

[knitter4democracy]

71. *snicker*

I had several students whose parents sent them to the Catholic schools because they'd been kicked out of the publics. Those Catholics would straighten them up. :eyes:

You're right to an extent about the parents, though. On the other hand, the Catholic schools I taught in and send my kids to require parental involvement as part of the contract. I think the publics should do the same.

[knitter4democracy]

70. It depends.

The Catholic schools I taught in weren't so free to pick and choose. See, they had a family to deal with and the priest of their parish to deal with if they said they didn't want a particular student. That, and we needed the higher enrollment just to keep teachers on staff (I was cut when our numbers dipped from the first school I taught at). We had students with IEPs and all sorts of special needs, elevators for the kids in wheelchairs and with health issues, and kids of all backgrounds.

[JDPriestly]

3. Teachers in public schools are trained better.

I think the private schools are better idea is a myth. The students in private schools are more motivated and better, but the schools themselves are not. My children went to public schools and did better in college (and are doing better in life) than many of their friends who went to private schools. It's all marketing and hype. My mother is one of the best educated people I know, and she went to a one-room country school. She loves to learn. That's the secret -- A motivated student will learn.

[Sailor for Warner]

4. I think it depends on the school

My wife taught History at both a private Catholic school and a public school and the private school required well over a year of training and this was AFTER she already had her Fla Teaching cert.

[LostinVA]

23. Catholic schools tend to have pretty high standards

both for teachers and students... in my experience, anyway.

[zanne]

32. I went to a Catholic high school for two years....

When I transferred to a public school for my junior year, I had alot of catching up to do (especially in Literature). Private doesn't always mean better. The Catholic school teachers didn't have the training and still don't have to be as highly qualified as public school teachers.

[LostinVA]

45. I was talking about my experiences

I know many people who went to RC schools and had great schooling, and I know several RC teachers, who all have Master's, and who's supplemental training, CEU's, etc., are much higher than their local public school counterparts.

[zanne]

54. Most teachers have their Master's Degrees.

Regardless of private or public schools, most teachers do have their Master's Degrees.

[LostinVA]

59. I know of private school teachers who don't have bachelor degrees

[foreverdem]

53. I had the opposite experience

I went to public school for my senior year of high school and did not open a book the entire year. All of the material had been covered in my junior and sophomore year of Catholic high school.

[BlueJazz]

6. You said >>>

"My mother is one of the best educated people I know, and she went to a one-room country school. She loves to learn. That's the secret -- A motivated student will learn".

My mother also went to a one-room country school and has 2 degrees and has stated several times that every one she remembers
(from that little school) has done well in life.....Yep..it's all about motivation.

[Dark]

16. If nothing else, private schools are more effecient.

They do get more bang for their buck. But that could also be due, like you said, to the fact that their students are motivated. Thus, the schools don't have to pay as much for their students to learn.

[knitter4democracy]

78. No, they just don't pay for things.

The publics pay for grade books, paper, pencils, books, and many items. Not all, I know, but most do. The Catholic schools I taught in paid for nothing extra--I got chalk and a grade book. That was it. The books were through a state program in Ohio, so that wasn't a cost to the school (and they were often so old they literally crumbled in the students' hands). I had to pay for everything else out of my measley salary.

[AngryAmish]

79. What data do you have to support your supposition?

The hard numbers say that a Chicago Public Schools graduate 6% of the students from college. 3% if you are a black or hispanic male. Let that number sink in a little. Do you think that the private schools in Chicago have worse numbers? They don't. The fact that your children did better than their friends is meaningless in the larger picture (but very meaninglful for them and you).

Are 94% of Chicago public school students unmotivated. Of course not. It is just that CPS are an open cesspool designed to make people money, not to educate children.

[OzarkDem]

5. I'm so tired of deliberately divisive threads n/t

[monarch]

7. I don't consider the post to be divisive at all.

It's an issue where we can all find common ground.

[LostinVA]

24. Me either (and I disagree with the OP)

I find it interesting.

[BlueJazz]

8. With all due respect, I don't think it's divisive at all.

I, for one, am rather tired of Teachers getting blamed for students poor performance in schools and class work.
I've known folks who have only gone as far as the 9th grade and can hold an intelligent conversation with anybody, because they READ and learn something every day...on their own.

[Dinger]

12. I Agree - More & More Threads Here Lately Attacking Public Schools

It even seems a little organized. Hmmmmm.
I guess some here want public schools to go the way of Democracy.

[Dark]

18. I wasn't attacking public schools.

I was just trying to show that the repub argument of private schools being better isn't because they simply are, but because they have to be. I wasn't blaming the teachers either. I was just showing that one of the reasons Private schools can do more with less is because they pay less.

[Dinger]

80. There's No Way Of Knowing If PRIVATE Schools Are Better Than Public School

They are not held to the same standard, and most are NOT REQUIRED to take standardized tests. I'm sure there are excellent private schools out there. Likely, they are the ones having their students taking these tests AND they actually report the results (IF they CHOOSE to take standardized tests, there are many states that do not require them to do so).To You make a statement like "the repub argument of private schools being better isn't because they simply are," with no link or documentation. This makes me curious what you base your statement on.

[OzarkDem]

20. Wonder if the mods

can create a separate forum for them - they can all post divisive threads and jump on their own bandwagon...

[zanne]

66. But then what would we have to talk about? nt

[NashVegas]

9. Mythology

Having attended both private and public schools, I got far more out of public.

But that's just anecdote. Some facts:

http://www.news.uiuc.edu/NEWS/06/0123lubienski.html

The researchers looked at achievement and survey data from NAEP’s 2003 national sample of 190,000 fourth-graders in 7,485 schools and 153,000 eighth-graders in 6,092 schools. The schools in the sample were categorized by NAEP as public (non-charter), charter and private, with the private schools broken down further by Catholic, Lutheran, conservative Christian and “other private.”

....

As in the previous study, the researchers found what everyone expects when looking just at test scores: Private schools did better than regular (non-charter) publics. “Private schools are always going to do better if you’re not controlling for demographic differences,” Sarah Lubienski said.

...
Charter schools scored lower than regular publics in the fourth-grade sample, when looking just at test scores, and about even with regular publics in the eighth grade.

However, when they compared schools with similar student populations, based on students’ backgrounds – a kind of apples-to-apples demographic comparison – the private schools’ advantage disappeared, and even reversed in most cases.

This is nothing new. Studies have been showing for years that, once you remove the "cherry picking" factor, public schools tend out out-perform private ones.

[aikoaiko]

17. IQ predicts academic success even better than SES.

Most studies never include that demogaphic variable (i.e., IQ) because its time consuming and didfficult to measure but its even better than socio-economic status of the family when predicting academic success. Of course, the two are often confounded.

[Sherman A1]

10. Oh, I don't know....

I survived a "Good Catholic Education" many years ago and it seemed that the public schools had all the good stuff. Perhaps it was a case of the "grass is greener", or more likely they had much, much more money for the new sports auditorium, more books and equipment, while our schools had to make do and patch things up from year to year. I am sure the teachers were both dedicated in both, but life is easier with a few more dollars....

[NashVegas]

13. PE In My Old Catholic School

Let's see .... dodgeball, wiffleball ... ummm, can't think of much more. The boys had basketball, as well.

On the surface, those things have nothing to do with learning. On a very important level, though, athletic training in the young teaches them to have confidence in their bodies and push their limits. That carries over into other very important areas in education and living.

[aikoaiko]

11. I will soon be faced with the decision many of us do -- where to send them

While I am a supporter of public schools and the beneficiary of a great public school education (from Northern NJ), I now live in the deep south in a county that ranks near the bottom in state that often ranks near the bottom.

More over, I was just reading in my local newspaper that 33% of sixth graders from my school system get suspended. Jesus H Christ thats a lot of behavioral problems. How in the hell am I supposed to put my boy in that environment?

My choices of private schools are bleak. Theres the uber expensive elite school which I cannot afford, the freakish babtist school where my son will learn to hate gays, and moderate catholic schools which are generally affordable and provide discipline but generally impoverished.

I hate to admit it, but home schooling is looking better and better.

[Dark]

21. Tough choice. Homeschooling is the best, because YOU, the parent

are doing the teaching. But it's also very time consuming.

[LostinVA]

25. It depends solely on the caliber of the parent

In many states, there are no stamndards... and someone with a high school diploma can't teach high school level math and sciences. Hell, I have an advanced degree, and I couldn't teach Algebra 101.

[Dark]

26. Generally, if a parent has the time, patience, and care to homeschool

then they won't run into problems, IMHO.

[LostinVA]

37. We'll have to agree to disagree on this

Because, I don't think there's anyway that most people could teach high-level high school subjects, like physics, calculus, chemistry, critical thinking history and lit classes, etc. High school teachers are very, very specialized for a good reason... and someone with an MA or Ph.D. in European History almost positively couldn't teach a Calc class... and vice versa.

[Solo_in_MD]

63. The professionally prepared home school curriculum compensate for

some of the background deficiencies. I reviewed some for a friend recently and was impressed. As the spouse of a teacher and a former teacher myself, I was amazed at how far along the HS material has come.

HS also produces students who are quite capable of independent study and learning from books and computer based material. A very useful skill, and quite different from some of my students who expected me to feed them everything they needed to know to get an A. The down side is the lack of team and group experience. Then again, college still focuses on individual achievement as well.

As for specialization, its a bit over rated. I am certified to teach in high school in multiple topics. Any liberal arts major with an advanced degree should be able to teach in several related areas. Same with Science and Math.

[aikoaiko]

28. true, my wife and I already made to decision for her to stay at home

for the first five or six years already. Its difficult financially, but raising him ourselves (really she's doing most of the rearing) is more satisfying.

In a way, I suppose we already are informally homeschooling even as he just turned 1.

[bumblebee1]

69. You'll also have to pay for it.

Homeschooling can also be considered private schooling. There's nothing more private than the home.

[Burma Jones]

15. Private Schools are usually better because the students in them

have Parents that are interested enough in their kids' education to pony up the extra cash for tuition.

Parents can also make a Public School Education better than a Private School Education if they have the time and energy to be very involved.

Our kids go to a Private School because the class size is half of the local Public Elementary school's. Once they reach Middle School age, they'll go to the Public Schools.

Parents are, by far, more influential than teachers and administrators in what sort of education the kid gets.....

[Dark]

19. True. Parents are the most important teachers. n/t

[Nabia2004]

60. Yes, its the parental participation that makes the difference

In my experience with the local catholic school system (mid income level). Parents are far more involved in their kids education. The school expects it of them, and the parents seem to expect it of themselves. I was at an 8th grade graduation ceremony last week and simply amazed by the unity, commodity, and bonding between students, staff, and parents. As for the educational slandered, these kids were well informed, smart, responsible, and with a maturity I am not accustom seeing at this age. I found myself jealous. My public school education was a sad joke in comparison.

[Solo_in_MD]

64. Bingo!!!

Private schools have parents that have literally bought into their child's education. That makes all the difference in the world. Its not that there are not public school parents with similar attitudes, its that almost all of them in private school are supportive and a much smaller fraction in public school are.

[LostinVA]

22. MANY private schools are MUCH worse than public schools

Facilities, caliber of teachers, etc. Many aren't even accredited.

If we put decent money into ALL public schools, we would be great. Look at schools in more affluent areas -- they have wonderful school systems. Why? Because they have money to actually have a great school system.

How much is Iraq costly us every day? Hmmm... better to put that into schools, free college tuition, and national health care for all. Other countries do it, countries with far less resources. We can do it.... the Powers That Be just don't want to quit having pissing contests and playing with their toys.

I went to great schools in NJ in the 70's and very early 80's... a rural area, but an area where people actually pay taxes to have good schools.

[MadHound]

44. MOST private schools are MUCH worse than public schools

For the simple reason that most private schools are religious in nature. Thus instead of teaching facts and reality, they teach dogma and agendas. How can a student, taught that evolution is wrong, fully function and be a contributing member of society with that basic knowledge lacking? They can't, it is that simple.

Unless they go to a religious college they are doomed to failure in higher education due to these glaring holes in their education. In addition, their social skills are lacking, simply due to the fact that they are dealing with students who are pretty homogenous rather than diverse.

[foreverdem]

56. Not true

I went to Catholic school and we were taught evolution. We were also taught to not take the bible literally. Religios schools are not 7 hours of religious study. We are taught all the same subjects as public school kids.

As for being socially lacking I had tons of friends both in high school and beyond. My brother went to Catholic school for 12 years and graduated college top of his class with a degree in physics. Others in his class failed miserably. You cannot lump all or even most private school kids in the same mold.

[LostinVA]

62. giggle

I actually wrote MOST, then changed it to MANY to save myself from flames!

[knitter4democracy]

74. It depends on the school.

My hubby's parents sent all four of their kids to a private Christian school up through middle school, and every single one was at least a grade-level behind from the public high school when they switched.

My MIL even taught there for a couple of years--with absolutely no training whatsoever--and had me come do a guest lesson in poetry for her sixth grade language arts classes. I was a state certified 7-12 English teacher with three years experience in Catholic schools and a new stay-at-home mom with our baby daughter at the time. I did a lesson on metaphor, a grade appropriate lesson from the state English/Language Arts curriculum, and poetry writing, and I cried on the way home. The kids didn't know poetry and obviously didn't really know writing. It was one of the scariest and saddest teaching moments I ever had.

On the other hand, my Catholic high school students constantly amazed me at how high-level they were. Like public school teachers, I only ever had half the parents show up at conferences and all, but most of the kids were motivated to do their best. Some tried to go the easy, cheating route, but most really worked hard and tried their best. They were truly joys to teach (the rest of the job sucked, but the kids were great).

[DoYouEverWonder]

27. Some schools are better then others

Some schools are private, some schools are public.

Some teachers are better then others. Some teach in public school, some teach in private.

Some students are better then others...

Why did we need to promote the Repug agenda of divide and conquer? Education is a very personal experience. What is important is, what is best for a particular individual. The majority of students are going to do fine in a well run public school environment. There are some students who can't cope in that environment and require alternative options. It is up to the parent to decide which options work best for his/her child. It is up to society to offer a variety of options if they wish to have an enlightened and educated population.

[PassingFair]

29. As democrats, I believe that it is incumbent upon every one of us

..to support public education in America.

It is the MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR in our
rise to prominence in the world, and it
is a NECESSARY building block in assuring
that the promise:
"..all men are created equal" is kept.



It is also singled out as a BASIC tenet
of the democratic party. Democrats should
strive to IMPROVE public education, not
GUT IT like the puglicans.

On Edit:

Here is the "30 second" statement that we
ALL should agree on when asked what democrats
believe. And you might be surprised just how
many times this has been debated in our local
dem club, and with other groups dedicated to
shaping the message and the debate.

As usual, Howard Dean sums it up pretty well:

Howard Dean on

"What Dems Stand for:"

1: "American jobs that will stay in America and using energy independence to generate those jobs."

2: "A strong national defense based on telling the truth to our citizens, our soldiers and our allies."

3: "Honesty and integrity to be restored to government."

4: "A health care system that works for everyone, just as in thirty-six other countries."

5: "A strong public education system so that we can bring optimism and opportunity back to America."

Note #5, on education.

I have not run into ANYONE who disagrees with these basics.

If I did, I'd know they were unrepentant republicans.

[countingbluecars]

46. Excellent post!

As democrats we must support and work to improve public education.

[seabeyond]

30. i must live in a part of country that is flip flop of rest of world

i assumed private would be better academically. that is all i wanted. the best of education. by fourth grade, i saw there were selected public school that were a tad better academically and didnt cost over 5k a year, and didnt have a religious side bar. i wouldnt have minded the religious but about 2002 the religious aspect of school shifted to battle. that is not christ lite, walked away from the religion of tolerance. and i did not find the private school teacher wage higher and teacher performance higher. so.... private was not an option and public is the better choice.

in my area. i hear argument otherwise, but not in my experience.

et even when kids went to private there is no way i would support the gutting of public and hand education to religion and corporation for many different reasons.

[newportdadde]

31. Personally I think its because of supportive parents, if your willing

to fork over large sums of cash to get your kid in a private school your damn well going to stay on top of it.

[seabeyond]

33. you would think. i thought. but, i was surprised ot find the parents

were just as "non involved" as the public school. i made that assumption and can only go off my personal experience. i would like to see proof that private school preforms better per.

i can see that the numbers are higher because you have a more concentrated environment of kids that arent poor, upper income, and not the other issues the poorer kids have that effect them in school work and is discouraging for those kids. i can see that skewing the numbers. but i would really like to know if the education is so much better in a private. like i say, i didnt find it in this area.

[Yollam]

34. Prove that private schools are better.

I've read numerous studies showing standardized test scores in public schools are on average as good as those in private schools. Most parents with kids in public schools are highly satisfied with their own kids' schools, but believe that "other" public schools are bad - why? Because of the corporate media endlessly parroting that meme.


And people don't pay big bucks for private schools for better education - they pay it to keep their kids away from the poor kids, the kids of color and the special needs kids that the public schools MUST accept. Considering that the public schools have to deal with those kids, too, I'd say they're doing a damn good job.


If you are going to smear public schools, and by extension all the teachers who bust their asses for low pay there, how about offering some proof?

[notadmblnd]

35. I had my son in private schools until he was in 3rd grade

and he still wasn't reading. I was also paying a private tutor $50.00 an hour to work with him. It was the tutor who suggested I take and get him in public schools where specialists could work with him. He's reading at grade level now. I found out after that these private "teachers" weren't even certified to teach. I did a great disservice to my son by trying to protect him from the public school system. He still struggles academically, but I hope he doesn't have to pay for my mistake the rest of his life.

[seabeyond]

38. i found the same thing in private. what area are you

i am texas panhandle. my oldest was self motivated adn learner and always way ahead, so i credited the school. about third grade, adn having just put youngest in i started thinking maybe it wasnt the school but who my oldest is. it is his pat on the back and not the school. by the time my oungest had gotten thru kindergarten i was looking for different options, seeing how unimpressed i was with whqat they give him. and i did find that with the teachers.

[notadmblnd]

42. Michigan, Oakland county

about 30 miles North of Detroit

[seabeyond]

48. so.... it is Not just this area. good to know.

i am glad for my kids expereince in this private school. it was good for all of us. gave me and the boys huge lesson that we need to know nad understand in so many ways. and it did not adversely effect their academics. i got them out soon enough. but i would not have the perspective on private school today if we hadn't experienced it.

[bleedingheart]

41. my son has Asperger's syndrome and has trouble with

reading comprehension...and the public schools must accommodate him and provide help...which they have and he is getting better. Private schools are not obligated to do so, yet I was shocked at how many parents with special needs kids will end up paying through the nose to send those kids to schools where they don't get much needed assistance...just because they thought it would be better.

[seabeyond]

50. i keep telling a friend who son struggle so thru 7th grade

hold him back a yer (he is young forthe classmates) and put him in public where they will address. my oldest struggle a period in math. had a high B, but on a practice test made a 79...... they sent his tush to tutoring. it is grand.

[bleedingheart]

61. my son is attending a week long session starting next week

to help him with his reading over the summer...all paid for by public schooling tax dollars..15 hours of added help in addition to the work I am doing with him

[AnnInLa]

36. Don't forget, pukes want to privatize every public program

because this would further separate the haves from the have-nots or have-littles. Eliminating public schools, or marginalizing them sufficiently, would further eliminate the middle class. The public school system has always served as the great equalizer in this country, and should continue to be so.

[bleedingheart]

39. Yes and No...there are good Private schools...BUT

the really expensive ones...$20K per year...are the places where the really wealthy send their pampered babies..and they do get good educations and the teachers are paid well....


However...I live near wealthy neighborhoods and the upper middle class and low end rich folk will send their children to good public schools over private schools in most cases...

So what causes parents to go private?

1. Religious purposes
2. Snobbery
3. Their kid is a prick and got kicked out of public school (you would be surprised how many kids are attending private schools because they are unwanted in the public schools)
4. The school offers some special program for their child that they or the child want and are willing to pay for.

of course there are many other reasons...

In our neighborhood there is a new Roman Catholic school. They are desparate to attract kids to this school...However...as i told my husband this is a middle class area...and the public school is very good...so why would someone in so so economic times dump money into a private school???

Guess what...rumor has it that if they don't boost enrollment...the school will have to shut down...

[seabeyond]

40. of course there are many other reasons. you didnt hit on mine

but i agree that it must be the upper end private that really preform better than public.

[LostinVA]

43. Blacks, browns, and yellows

That's what caused the explosion of private schools in many areas... and, I'm not talking about Andover, but rather "non-denominational" and other sucky private schools that often aren't accredited, and who produce kids who have no critical thinking and little learning.

The wealthy don't want to miss with the hoi polooi... the hoi polloi don't want to mix with anyone who isn't a "real American."

[bleedingheart]

49. you are correct...there are a lot of schools filled with the children

of bigots who don't want their kids to be around people they don't approve of or are afraid of for some freaky reason.

I met a woman who was cyber schooling her child. Without sounding snobby, the way this woman spoke and carried herself indicated to me that she was not very well educated herself and yet she was cyber schooling her child at home and I could tell that it wasn't a benefit to her kid. What pisses me off is that in my state that if a few hundred people decided to do this in every district, it could seriously screw up the financial stability of the public schools since they must foot the bill for those kids who "cyber school"....Rick Santorum robbed his "home district" of Penn Hills of well over $60K in a scheme like this.

[LostinVA]

58. Good post

I have relatives who have their kids in pretty expensive, non-accredited schools... because they don't want their kids to go to school with all the "Porto Rikans." God. And, I agree about the low-level of SOME homeschooling parents, and how this does indeed affect the way the districts are funded.

[knitter4democracy]

76. That's key here, too, except in the Catholic schools.

The Christian schools, run by the Reformed Church here, are almost all white and upper middle class and up. The Catholic schools are far more mixed, cheaper, and actually better in test scores and other measurements.

I've heard way too much racism involved in the decision, though. I'm proud that my daughter's best friend and one-third of her kindergarten class aren't rich white kids. It's wonderful to see.

[Chimichurri]

47. Private schools for the elite tend to be better however

private schools for the average american who cannot pay the prices the rich pay are not better. I went to a private school priced for middle class families (which was still very expensive for my parents) but my brother went to public school. He had many more programs and better ones then I did. That was because his school got state/federal funding where mine did not. My school depended solely on the tuition paid by the parents which did not come close to the money the public schools received. Also, the teachers at my school were paid a fraction of what the public school teachers were paid and that's not saying much.

Privatizing public schools will hurt the average american on many different levels. Mostly, having to pay for your kid's school from grammar school - college while still paying high property taxes (for states who fund eduction via property taxes) will be a huge burden for parents. It will never equal the amount of money provided by the federal government. Who will benenfit from your paycheck? Schooling will become a business to which keeping in the black will be priority number one at the expense of the students. One only need to look at the private contracting of our military and our voting machines. Our kids will become fodder for those in power who will see them as a product to profit off of.

Imagine what our country would be like if many are left out of the education process because they simply cannot afford it. Like everything else the republicans touch, reading and writing will become a pay to play scenario where only those who can afford it will learn.

[seabeyond]

52. perfectly said. that was my conclusion in my experience n/t

[NewJeffCT]

51. A fomer co-worker of mine pulled his daughter out of private schools

A guy that I used to work with had his daughter in a private elementary school. She was one of their top students and was told by the private school that he should send her to public schools for junior high/middle school because they could better handle & accommodate somebody of his daughter's caliber. And, while Connecticut has a reputation for very good public schools, the town this guy lived in was not a town known for its strong public schools.

Also, had an old boss that lived in a posh wealthy town in Connecticut (Avon) and this Republican was bragging how parents in his town were pulling their children out of prestigious private schools (Avon Old Farms or Miss Porter's School in neighboring Farmington) and putting them in their town's public schools.

The problem often isn't just funding for the schools - it's funding for everything related to social programs: the city of Hartford has terrible public schools, but spends more per student than the aforementioned Avon. Why is that? Because parents in Hartford often can't afford to buy all the learning tools that parents in Avon take for granted, and they may be working 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet, so don't have as much time to spend with their children.

[kentuck]

55. And private schools will never accept every child...

under-privileged, handicapped, minorities, everyone. That's why we call them "public" schools. Private schools cannot compete with public schools on the same level playing field.

[Orangepeel]

65. a successful private school offers something public schools don't

it doesn't necessarily mean "better," at least not for everyone.

Sometimes, the benefit offered by a private school is religious indoctrination. Not everyone wants that, but some people do.

Sometimes, it is the prestige and connections that stem from going to school with the kids of the town's most successful professionals. Sometimes these kids are more competitive in terms of getting good grades because they are all trying to get into prestigious colleges, and some students do better in a more competitive environment (some don't).

[Igel]

67. I think I agree with you, but it's not a very useful point of

agreement.

Private schools are not always better than public schools because there's a lot of variation in each set, and the proper argument involves averages and means--and even that's flawed. But it's why it's not a useful point of agreement. The private school where I grew up was better than the public school, but some public schools on the other side of the county were much better than our local private school, and private schools in the city were worse than my public school. It's not always the schools, often it's the kids. My high school offered the usual complement of classes, and had teachers that could teach them, but the top tier of courses was never taught because of no enrollment. Meanwhile, the better schools had parents clamoring for classes more advanced than the usual one.

In other words, go from the local private school to a public school elsewhere, and you'd struggle; go from the local private school to the local public school, and you'd coast for a while. Go from the local *public* school to some inner-city private schools, and you'd coast for a while. Public vs. private, which is better?

But I said that a crude statistical approach is flawed. Why? Because parents sending their kids to private school self-select for different reasons. All do it because they think their kids will improve. But some do it so their kids will excel above the public school level; and some do it so their kids will stop lagging below grade level in public school. Usually parents are more involved in their kids' education, either way; this is a good thing.

The number of parents in each self-selected set varies by neighborhood and community. In many very poor areas the number of parents self-selecting to get their kids to stop failing in public school is higher than the ones wanting superior kids: they don't want their kids to drop out, "excel" is too high a goal for many. The starting point for those kids is below grade level, on average; in fact, the average is from a small number of kids above the norm, and a large number below the norm. In wealthier areas, the distribution is reversed and most parents want their kids to do better than average. Not all: in my area a fair number of parents took kids in danger of failing and put them in private school. But the 'average' for those is a large number above the norm, and a smaller number below the norm. Now compare the two sets of students: one set is mostly below the norm, and one set above the norm. It's called a bimodal distribution. (This has the effect of lowering the norm of public schools in wealthier areas, and raising the public school norm in very poor areas.)

This creates a kind of statistics where mean and STD don't mean much, and where SES may be measurable, but isn't the deciding factor. You have to look at properties of the students and the parents that are sometimes poorly quantifiable, and any net improvement, while keeping in mind that improvement isn't necessarily linear and the non-linearity isn't well characterized. It makes objective comparisons difficult, and each side in the debate has their favorite studies because they have favorite assumptions.

[rman]

68. Only need to get people to believe private schools are better - that's

capitalism.

[SmokingJacket]

72. Maybe, maybe not.

People have been known to pay a lot of money for "prestige," even though they're getting a product of the same quality. Sometimes people pay a lot just to pay a lot.

I know of a Catholic school that relies quite heavily on unqualified teachers -- they have to, because they barely pay teachers minimum wage. Yet wealthy families still send their kids there, because they like the idea that they're paying for an exclusive education. Oh yeah, and because the high tuition keeps the riff-raff out. :eyes:

[knitter4democracy]

77. Catholic teacher pay is higher, which isn't saying much.

One Baptist school I interviewed at offered me $15K gross per year, the other one $12,600. Both only offered half medical and no other insurance coverage.

The Catholic schools I taught in had basic insurance (that refused to cover contraception or for anything that compromised my fertility, even to save my life), and my starting salary was $18,600 gross per year. I didn't break $20K until my third year of teaching.

Oh, and they stopped paying us over the summer my second year, too. I had to teach summer school and camp all summer just to pay the bills.

At the Catholic schools in Cleveland, though, everyone has to be certified or on track to be certified (through a local program) if the school wants to be accredited. They didn't mess around with unqualified teachers--I taught with some of the best in the state, and I count it an honor to have known them.

[bloom]

73. They are not necessarily better - esp. the religious ones

The religious ones do not have to "compete" because people send there kids there to get a religious influenced education.

My parents sent my brother to a Lutheran school starting out. He had to repeat the 2nd grade at the public school - because he was too far behind - because the Lutheran school that he had been at was that much behind the public one.

I knew other people who crossed over from Catholic schools to public and they sure weren't ahead.

I expect that the Republicans would like to do whatever they can to change that - make the public schools worse - so they are more competitive for the private religious ones.

I know that there was a private, non-religious school that was superior - it cost a lot of money, too. (Didn't pay the teachers nearly as well as the public schools though).

[madfloridian]

75. That is so absolutely not true.

This is the spiel the right wing is making to get the government out of the business of public schools.

Some of our private schools here, even religous ones, are getting voucher money because of Jeb's influence. That is public school money, our tax money..going to pay for private schools and religion.

They are not even held to account. We are not allowed to see the test scores of these voucher students, who are supposed to be doing so much better in private schools.

It is all about turning schools over to corporations to run and getting rid of public schools in America.