The Immigration Issue Is Pure Racism

[NashVegas]

(reposting from another thread)

I came to this conclusion recently, while chowing down at my favorite Mexican restaurant.

They keep a few TVs turned on, to the Spanish language channels. Come in around lunch time or just after, and you can watch telenovelas - their soap operas - and news broadcasts.

The people you see on your cable Spanish channels look very little like the Mexican people I see in the restaurant and in my community. The people on TV are mostly white or very, very light-skinned with European facial features.

The people I see around me appear to have much more in common, genetically, with indigenous - native - Americans. The people we nearly wiped out, and have lately been enjoying some success with the casinos.

But they move up here to live in a less corrupt society, take OUR jobs and my goodness! How dare they walk out of the reservation and into our capitalist territory?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

1. I don't think that's the case.

It is clearly the case that a great many of the more vocal opponents of loosening immigration laws are motivated partly, and often mostly, by racism.

However, it is equally undeniable that there *are* people who are opposed to who are in no way, shape or form racist, and alos that many of those who have racist reasons for opposing it partly from racism have other reasons for doing so too, and I think it does the cause of liberalising America's immigration laws a diservice to try and deny it.

[Ian David]

2. The Republicans have given us an absolutely booming economy...

shouldn't we stay the course, and not mess with the new-found prosperity that Bush has clucthed out of the jaws of the Clinton recession?

That's my answer to the Repukes who think everything is going so well.

[-..__...]

3. The White/Black/Hispanic people I see on American soaps and news casts...

seldom look like the people I see in my day to day affairs.

:shrug:

FWIW, I think bleached blonde hair on Hispanic women (like on Telemundo), looks pretty damn stupid.

[NashVegas]

25. Yabbut We're Here Already

Can't kick us out, we were born here.

Mostly, though, it was the racial difference that stood out to me (TV). And with it, of course, comes social class.

If people want to stop illegal immigration from Mexico, then it's time to lean on Mexico to do a little something about its corruption problem and its stagnant class system.

[unlawflcombatnt]

81. I have to agree with that.

It's time for more of the focus to be on getting the Mexican plutocracy to stop exploiting their own countrymen.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[cigsandcoffee]

4. The immigration issue, to me, has to do with respect for laws...

If a nation has no borders, then how is it a nation at all?

It's too easy and mindless to say that those who oppose unfettered illegal immigration are racists, or "mean to brown-skinned people." I don't care who wants to come in illegally, or what color they are - they need to go through the legal process like everyone else.

[RagingInMiami]

11. If we, as a nation, are going to discuss "respect for laws"

Then we need to start at the top, not at the bottom. We need to start with impeachment. Then work our way down the chain of command until every politician, republican or democrat, has been investigated and dealt with accordingly.

Then we can address the regular felons in this country; the sex offenders, the murderers, the common criminals.

Then, after we take care of the felons, we can deal with the misdemeanors, which is what illegal immigration falls under.

[cigsandcoffee]

12. What possible difference does the ordering make?

Strange argument you're making there. Laws are laws, and they're not based on addressing other laws first.

[RagingInMiami]

16. Well if those "enforcing" the laws are criminals themselves

It just doesn't look too credible.

[cigsandcoffee]

17. Look too credible to who?

I don't care what administration is in power, that doesn't make jumping a country's borders any less illegal.

[RagingInMiami]

19. Isn't it easier to go after the little man

Than after the powerful elite?

[cigsandcoffee]

22. Sure. So what?

Let's go after everyone who breaks our laws, and not just the ones we don't sympathize with. Show me a Western country in the world that doesn't take painstaking care of its borders and properly check out all of their immigrants - why do you think that is?

[RagingInMiami]

29. Show me a Western country in the world

That was built on immigration in the same manner we were. That has a history of accepting the huddled masses yearning to breathe free. That opened it doors to the wretched refuse of the world's teeming shores. That accepted the tired, the poor and the homeless and allowed them to build new lives for themselves.

Show me that country because I don't think it exists.

[cigsandcoffee]

31. We were indeed built on immigration...

...but not illegal immigration. Are you actually arguing for doing away with our border controls?

[RagingInMiami]

33. The reason we have so many immigrants coming across the border

is because thousands of Mexican farmers lost their farms after NAFTA was implemented. As you should know, NAFTA was implemented to mostly benefit American corporations.


So we created this problem and now it's time to take care of it.

We wanted to be the Big Daddy of the Americas. Well now it's time to pay child support.

[cigsandcoffee]

36. Assuming that you're right, and Mexico didn't send us...

...waves of illegals before NAFTA (of course they did), then how will "big daddy" now pay "child support?"

Incidentally, I can't imagine any Mexican citizen not taking offense at the father/child relationship idea you've espoused. Their government signed NAFTA of their own accord, I believe.

[RagingInMiami]

44. It's been well documented that illegal immigration peaked in the mid-1990s

And NAFTA was implemented Jan. 1, 1994.

[cigsandcoffee]

46. I remember Reagan's failed amnesty in the 80s.

It's been an issue for a long time, regardless of peaks and valleys.

But you didn't answer - how is "big daddy" going to pay "child support?" What's your plan?

[RagingInMiami]

48. Am I the one running for office?

Why do I need a plan?

I do know that building a wall is not going to work. Do you know how many tunnels have been found along the border? And how realistic is deporting 12 million illegal immigrants?

[Solon]

53. While Raging in Miami didn't really answer this...

I did, a while ago, though I'm surprised that the most adamant protestors against illegal immigration didn't slam it, too bad, I was looking for INTELLIGENT debate, but no one wants solutions, just bullshit.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1064574

[RagingInMiami]

59. That's a good solution

Anything that puts the worker above the corporation.

I honestly don't have the time and energy to fully immerse myself in these immigration debates so I try to keep it short. Otherwise, I get too obsessed.

[Solon]

62. Not blaming you...

Sorry if it came off that way, I view Illegal Immigration and Free Trade in the same way, its a war against the working class, it doesn't MATTER WHERE that working class come from, or what flag they fly. I don't really give a shit about the window dressing, I care about the substance, I care about solutions, and I care about working people, everywhere.

[RagingInMiami]

65. You didn't come off that way

I think we both know where we each stand on the issue.

The way I see it, no matter what I argue or discuss or present as facts, I'm not going to change anybody's mind on the issue. And nobody is going to change my mind either.

[KamaAina]

71. Canada: Still actively recruiting some immigrants

mostly those wishing to farm in the Prairie Provinces. It's a place where the sight of a Mountie wearing a Sikh turban causes barely a raised eyebrow. And Toronto, not New York or L.A., is rated the world's most multicultural city by the UN.

[cigsandcoffee]

78. We're talking legal immigration, right?

Pots and kettles.

[lumberjack_jeff]

77. Agri-industry, such as Tyson Foods, is not "the little guy".

Go after 'em with both barrels.

[Dark]

15. Illegal immigration is a felony, I believe. And I'd prefer to deal with

rapists and murderers before a mayor getting kickbacks from the local casino.

[RagingInMiami]

18. Illegal immigration is not a felony

That is what the Sensenbrenner Bill was trying to do, make it a felony. And that is why we had hundreds of thousands of protesters on the streets two months ago.

[unlawflcombatnt]

82. No

We need to start enforcing clear-cut, undeniable violations of the law, which is what employers are doing when they hire illegal immigrants.

Certainly Bush should be impeached. But it's ridiculous to suggest we shouldn't enforce any other laws until that happens. We need to enforce laws that are technically simple to enforce, such as the illegal hiring of illegal immigrants, and the document forgers who assist them.

And, by the way, stealing or falsifying a Social Security number is a crime, and should be prosecuted accordingly.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[treestar]

37. Nobody respects stupid laws

And our immigration laws are hopelessly outdated and stupid.

It's one thing to "respect" the law not to murder and rob, but quite another thing when it comes to regulatory matters.

We could change the immigration laws to allow people to be here legally - then they couldn't even be paid below minimum wage, etc. It could only help the economy. We cannot live in a sealed economy any more than any other country.

If we truly reformed the laws to make them logical, and even to make them in our own economic self interest, we wouldn't have this problem.

That's why it looks like mere xenophobia to use this one.

[Cleita]

56. Really? So shouldn't we ask our President and his

criminal gang to respect the laws and the Constitution first?

[EFerrari]

75. Nixon ran on "law and order". Lots of racists have. In fact,

they all do.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. Sure, there's a lot of caucasians in Mexico.

Often in the upperclasses, but there's plenty of them.

Of course it's racism. Just look at the OP in that other thread. It's a "flood" of mexicans. Something new and dangerous.

[cigsandcoffee]

6. It's a 'flood of illegals'

Their ancestry means nothing to me. Irish, Polish, German, Mexican, Chinese, whatever. Get in line and do it right the way that our laws decree. Jump the line, and don't expect us to smile about it.

[NashVegas]

20. Sorry, I Just Don't Buy It

Every ethnic immigrant group that's come over, in large numbers, has faced bitter racism in the US, by the preceeding groups. After the slaves were freed and they moved up north, they faced it too.

[cigsandcoffee]

23. Indeed. How is that an argument to ignore our immigration laws?

I'm just not following you.

[NashVegas]

27. It's More of An Argument to Ignore This Wedge Issue Being Stoked

Just as Willie Horton got stoked in 1988. Or did you really think that was not about racism, but about crime and prison furloughs?

[cigsandcoffee]

28. Well, ignoring an issue means doing nothing...

...and embracing the status quo. Are you OK with unfettered illegal immigration in to this country simply because you don't want to be labeled a racist (or want to label others that way)?

[NashVegas]

32. I Asked You First :)

Was the Willie Horton campaign about crime, or was it about using racism to influence a political contest?

[cigsandcoffee]

34. I'm missing the comparison between a single violent felon...

...and a flow of what amounts to slave labor pouring in the country.

I'm also not saying that the illegal issue wont be demagogued or used by racists or exploiters. So what? That doesn't make the particulars of the problem any different, does it?

[Solon]

42. No, but it could affect the solutions...

Are we to have a roundup like we did in the middle of the last century, where entire towns of mostly hispanics were deported, regardless of citizenship status? Actually, this brings up another point, if someone who was born HERE in the states, as a citizen, is mistakenly deported, have kids in Mexico, aren't those kids OBLIGATED to come back here if they want to?

[cigsandcoffee]

45. I'm not for rounding up anyone.

The first thing we need to do is stop the flow with tougher border enforcement. Then we can figure out how to address those who are already here - either by offering them amnesty, enrolling them in aguest worker program, or even deporting them over the course of many years.

Someone who is born HERE will have valid documents proving this. Why would they be mistakenly deported unless they have no personal organization at all? As important as resident status is, I find it unlikely that any legal immigrants are sloppy with their papers.

[Solon]

50. They did have the documents, in the form of birth certificates...

they were ignored, it was a racist policy, this was back when segregation was still practiced, why would you be surprised at this? I was talking about CITIZENSHIP status, not IMMIGRATION status.

[treestar]

40. The "flood" is mostly Mexican, but rather than racism, the term is

xenophobia, if a "flood of foreigners" is a problem for you.

We could easily get a more updated and logical set of laws to regulate movement across borders. We choose to keep an outdated and impossible to administer and enforce set, just so we can have a lot of illegals and then play the victim.

[cigsandcoffee]

41. What laws would you make, then?

"Come on in, the water's fine?"

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. Xenophobia + mostly one race = racism.

But this is a semantic argument.

[hunter]

73. Mexican President Vicente Fox's mother is from Spain.

The Constitution of Mexico would have not allowed him to be President until it was changed at the end of Carlos Salinas' term, thus making Fox eligible to run.

Fox's father is Spanish-Irish.

Fox's family carried quite a lot of political savvy into Mexico from... Chicago.

These discussions are endlessly amusing to me. The United States and Mexico share many similar forms of political corruption.

The biggest difference between the U.S. and Mexico is that white racists in the United States managed to kill off much more of the indigenous population, and thus the class structure here was not so obviously based on race, at least from the point of view of the upper classes. The upper classes could point to the poor white Americans (what was that they called them behind their backs? White trash?) and pretend the United States was a land of equal opportunity, whereas in Mexico it was much more obvious that brown people were discriminated against in favor of people who looked European.

[DubyaSux]

7. Actually...

...I think labeling all illegal immigrants as Mexican is very racist. That is hardly the case.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zookeeper]

9. Your post is pure opinion.

How can you "know" that everyone who disagrees with you is racist? This sounds a lot like the way Bush comes to his conclusions through his "gut" instead of his brain. You certainly have a right to form your theory however you choose. It just doesn't happen to be the best way to set national policy.

Or is this thread just meant to be flame-bait? (Dumb question.)

[NashVegas]

21. Of Course It Is

..

[eowyn_of_rohan]

26. Gee, you keep on having such profound "epiphanies"

maybe you will eventually hit on one worth starting a thread with. This isnt it.

[Dark]

10. I'm not going to say that racism isn't part of it, but it ain't all of it.

Money is an important point. The idea that they are stealing jobs is both specious and yet quite sane. Not everyone is capapble of college level jobs, and must suffice on factory or no skill jobs, the ones illegal immigrants are taking.

Also, there is the health issue. Why do you think they ask you if you've been outside the country in the last 5 years? Mexicans are immune to diseases that Americans aren't. Also, they could feasibly bring a very dangerous epidemic with them, as their health care is below par and they don't pass through checkpoints.

Another issue is justice. After all, if you were a legal immigrant to the U.S., you have to work your ass of to get and stay here. Illegals don't have to jump through those bureaucratic loopholes.

Still other concerns worry Americans. We can't support the rest of the world. Our economy isn't strong enough to bring everybody to our level of living. Thus, it is a dead end policy and unjust as well.

As for your TV assertion, what do you expect? Whoever has the money will be making the shows as they see fit. That's part of the whole 'capitalist' economy.

And, finally, WE DIDN'T WIPE OUT ANYONE. Our ancestors did. It was wrong, but it was not our fault. So don't try to play that card.

[Solon]

13. The hypocrisy is what gets me...

A duer on that other thread stated that all French don't shower and all smell bad, then turns around and bitches about Generalizations! What bullshit!

[NashVegas]

35. Wow. I Missed That One

sounds fun.

[Solon]

39. Look here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1452446#1465628

Especially the response, disgusting bullshit there!

[RagingInMiami]

58. I've been to France twice and I found that to be a myth

[RebelOne]

70. I have also been to France twice and I agree that it is a myth.

In fact, the way the French women dress would put American women to shame.

[RagingInMiami]

72. They really do have style over there

Another thing I noticed is that French women are very good at taking care of their skin. I don't know if it's all the French moisturizers they use, but middle-aged woman tend to look much younger than their age because of their smooth skin.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

80. I've been to France a number of times myself

And the only times I have noticed problems with human stinkaroo were in Toulouse and Nice. And it was just a few men. We had 2 French exchange students stay at my parents house, when I was in high school. Now those two REEKED! Anyway, you are right that French women dress better than American women, in general, and so do the men.

[radwriter0555]

76. Hey, is there room for me on this thread? I'm still trying to find out

who ever is proposing completely unrestricted migration by all mexicans to the USA... that the OP there was so worried about.

but I figured with the avoidance of actual debate on that thread, I would get REALLY scorched in a flame out and it would never actually get answered.

[MercutioATC]

14. It's a legal and economic issue, not a racial issue.

The "immigration issue" I assume you're talking about is the "ILLEGAL immigration issue". I don't know many people who think immigration is a bad idea, they just see the harm caused by illegal immigration.

[genie_weenie]

24. By which side?

I don't agree with the ideal of Nation-States, therefore, I don't give a crap about the laws of this Nation or the laws of Mexico. The question is:

Why do people wish to come to the US? And why do people want to limit them?

I think you'll find it has more to do with money, control of government, hysteria (the immigrants are coming!) and that the everyday American is being bombarded with some many messages.

Immigrants are brought into this country to depress wages, politicians then court the disparate groups in order to strengthen their positions.

So, come on in everybody, once we're flooded with too many people compared to the job pool we'll get depression and a stronger government and corporate power. And the middle class will be shunted further down towards poverty and the Government will have a strong solid pool of citizens for it's WARS and the education system will continue to teach Americans their places in society as worker bees and cogs for the War Machine and slave labor.

Hooray Immigration!

[earth mom]

30. Why are you against the Legal American Worker?

Why don't you care if he has been outsourced, insourced, downsized, had his union bashed/destroyed, his pension stolen, his health care slashed?!

Forget how you want to frame this with your sick little "meme". :eyes: Whatever.

For the record, I am FOR the people who are already here legally who have had their livelihoods STOLEN. That you don't get this simple fact proves YOUR RACISM against Legal American Workers no matter what color they may be.

'Nuff said.

[Solon]

38. See, its that type of absolutism that makes the OP...

and myself "see red". The OP did NOT say they are against the American worker, you stated that, and its a strawman argument. The WAY the issue of illegal immigration is presented is the problem, bitching about them taking our jobs as if they even had a choice in most cases does reek of racism. The kicker is that those most shrill about this issue are the LEAST likely to think of short or long term solutions that would work. Hell, I've seen people here advocate a border wall, as if we could even afford to build a damned near 2,000 mile wall, much less WHO we are going to get to build it in the first place. Too much bullshit, too much absolutism.

[earth mom]

49. And how about the OPs broad brush smear?

I don't appreciate being called racist -all the op is doing is poisoning the well, instead of looking for a solution. He does NOT speak about workers rights-legal or illegal. Instead he speaks solely of racism-so he gets that racism right back in his face because it is PURE BULLSHIT!

Putting up a wall and going after immigrants is bullshit too, it's not the answer. Going after greedy businesses-large an small-who exploit workers and who have brought this upon all of us-IS THE ANSWER.

But the op doesn't really want a solution now does he? He just wants to bitch about the fact that there are people here who are willing to fight for legal workers rights.

[Solon]

52. The problem is the black/white way that the issue is presented...

I've seen it all while here on DU, from people advocating border walls, to calling Mexicans criminals and the French dirty, those are the types that NEED to be slammed! Some were short lived disruptors, but others are long time DUers, and need to be called on the Bullshit they spout. Its really that simple. Besides, people on both sides really don't want to talk about solutions, they just like shouting.

[lumberjack_jeff]

79. So we must oppose the interests of US workers...

... because to support them sounds racist?

The primary solution is to vigorously enforce the existing laws against employers hiring those who do cannot legally work here. If the jobs dry up, so will the problem, and just maybe they'll return to their homes to work for a better life for their own countrymen.

[NashVegas]

47. Immigrants Don't Steal Anyone's Livelihood - Employers Do

When they decide to hire an illegal immigrant or anyone else they think they can put over a barrel, rather than a worker who has the right to make wage demands.

[earth mom]

67. Agreed. So why don't you post a thread blaming the true perpetrators

GREEDY EMPLOYERS-rather than bitch about people who want to see the problem solved and employers punished? Why do you twist the issue into a racism meme when it isn't racism in the first place?

[genie_weenie]

74. That was my point in Post #24!

And you ignored it! :cry:

[Cleita]

60. Did those immigrants outsource, insource, downsize, trash

the union or steal his pension and health care? They didn't. Place the blame where it belongs instead of on the scapegoat the Bush administration is handing to you. It's the Nazis in our government who are doing this not this underclass of poor people.

[earth mom]

64. I do place the blame on greedy businesses.

Which I've told you so before. So why jump on me now?

[Cleita]

66. Because you are repeating RW talking points.n/t

[earth mom]

68. Wow. Just wow. Slander and smear and LIE much?

Where's that ignore button? :puke:

[Phx_Dem]

51. The reason you see light skinned mexicans

on telemundo and univision is that the Mexicans in Mexico that have spanish blood like to keep it that way. They make up a large portion of the middle and upper class in Mexico. They have a name for this, it's called racism.

[Ksec]

54. Your post makes no sense.

Seriously. What are you talking about?

[Cleita]

55. Yes, and you might find if you are a Spanish speaker that

those people speak Spanish as a second language, their first language being the native tongue of their tribe.

[Igel]

57. Indignation built on a premise reached through

abductive reasoning.

Abduction is great for building hypotheses, but can never yield a conclusion.

And Mexico isn't a reservation.

[Cleita]

61. So these people don't even have a reservation to call their own.

How awful.

[Igel]

69. No, actually, although

who "these people" are is sometimes a question. But establishing a reservation for each ethnicity would be a nightmare.

The reservation system in the US didn't quite work out for the best, assuming a reasonable definition of 'best'.

[KingFlorez]

63. The racists should just admit what they are

Instead of hiding behind a legitimate concern