The Dems stance on immigration will lose this election for us.

[Skidmore]

Awaiting the flames, but as a party, we are on the wrong side of this issue in terms of legislation proposed. Sorry, one worlders, but this border issue is at once a security and a labor issue. We need to be representing the American worker.

[BayCityProgressive]

1. I agree

I don't know anyone...even liberals who agree with it.

[Robbien]

2. We need to go after the employers

Get them to obey the laws currently on the books.

[Imalittleteapot]

3. Enforce the law. n/t

[rock]

12. Yes

Once the govenment proves that it can enforce the law, we can debate what changes we want. If they can't enforce it, debate is pointless.

[MaineDem]

4. Immigration = GOP wedge issue of '06

I'm torn on how I feel about the issue. I can understand Congress' dilemma.

I don't have an answer.

[MelliMel]

5. Go after the emplyers, dry up the jobs, and the problem will

fix itself. No jobs, not so many illegal immigrants. Who would want to come to a country where they couldn't find a job as a non-citizen or without a green card?

[maxrandb]

25. GOP Policy on Illegal Immigration

is to "fu%^" this country up so much, that no one will want to come here.

They're well on their way to accomplishing that policy.

Also, please look at some of the posts here on DU about enforcement of illegal employment laws. I find it quite fascinating that enforcement, convictions, and fines on companies that hire illegal aliens has fallen 95% under Republican control.

That's not an opinion, that's a cold, hard fact!

There were over 400 notices of intent to fine, and over 3,000 workplace enforcement arrests for violation of immigration laws in 1999 (when Bill Clinton was in charge of enforcing our nations laws). In 2004, there were 3 COUNT 'EM THREE! notices of intent to fine, and only 152 workplace enforcement arrests (when George Bush was in charge of enforcing our nations laws).

Dems have a winning argument on this issue.

[Skidmore]

28. That's not the argument they are making though.

They chose instead just to "me-too" *'s position.

[MelliMel]

36. Excuse me?

I'm echoing the position of fining the emplyers. Unless you think that is a bad idea to dry the jobs up.

[Skidmore]

41. I'm agreeing with you. All I was responding to is that this would

be a great argument if Dems in Congress were using it. They aren't though.

[bunkerbuster1]

47. Which is idiotic. Why isn't EVERY Dem trashing Bush on this alone?

It's inexcusable, isn't it, that enforcement has been so pathetically lax?

Isn't it obvious that it'd make more sense to use enforce the laws we already have at hand before spending billions to erect a wall/fence thing?

[oc2002]

76. yep..but that means that there actualy have to enforce the laws!

nt

[Cobalt Violet]

6. I'm getting ready for all the post election whinning about....

How we are going to reach out to the blue collar worker or the low income worker. You and I know it's coming.

[oc2002]

73. DLC and DNC + RNC want cheap illegal labor.

Amnesty = ok to jump over the border.

any questions?

[bklyncowgirl]

7. Absolutely. Support American workers first.

Enforce the laws that are currently on the books and penalize companies for hiring illegal aliens.

Strengthen the border.

Avoid anything that even remotely sounds like a guest worker program.

Clearly some arrangements must be made for the undocumented workers that are already here but these arrangements must be ones that put them on an equal footing with Americans. Take away the employers privilege of lower wages, avoiding taxes and threatening to call INS at the first sign of labor unrest and let them compete fairly.

[alcibiades_mystery]

8. The New Dixiecrats Speaketh

:eyes:

[Skidmore]

9. Since you are so busy handing out labels, what exactly would you

label yourself?

[alcibiades_mystery]

13. Buck Naked?

:shrug:

[Epiphany4z]

10. I think the problem

as with most republican pet issues is there is no right side of this. We know we cannot ship 12 million people out we also know the guest worker thing wont work...it will probably just bring more illegals...the only thing that will work is a thriving Mexico.

I have been very active in my little corner of the world and I get talk to a lot of people even many Dem's I know do not want the Guest worker thing...they are looking side ways at the poor hispanic girl behind the dairy Queen counter...without stooping to think..she is probably legal..

I do think it is going to hurt us...not as much as caging list and other Republican party favors but ya it will hurt.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

16. I don't see how this is a republican issue

though I read this again and again in these immigration threads. You yourself acknowledged that Dems you know do not want the guest worker plan. This issue has been troubling many people for a number of years, and the number of people who feel directly affected is growing, steadily. It was an issue that John Kerry refused to acknowledge in any meaningful way before the last election, though many people were asking him to take a stand... It seems this issue is as divisive to the repubs as it is to the dems, and with the vast majority of Americans not happy with the high level of illegal immigration, the Dems need to offer some creative and intelligent solutions if they want to regain people's trust and support and make any gains over the repubs.

[Epiphany4z]

19. The issue is not a republican issue

but the fixes they offer wont work..they know it..they have no plans on voting on it or fixing it just on making us look like the bad guys...they want to act like shipping 12million people home will actually work. This issue also has people blaming illegals for the fact that they cannot find a job...after all we keep hearing how the economy is strong..and yet wages are stagnate and jobs are not so easy to come by...its not GW or the repubs its the illegals the evil Dems want to give guest worker status..If repubs actually passed something to start shipping mass ..think about it...12 million...people home ..do you really think it would win them any thing..it would be ugly....they have no intention to pass anything....we have more troops on the boarder than ever and yet we have more illegals than ever...the fix is not in a wall, a guest worker program or shipping them all home...it is in a thriving Mexico...something you know repubs do not want.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

40. I see what you mean

I agree the GOP knows their "fixes" won't work, particularly "rounding up" 12 (or whatever the real number is) illegal immigrants, and sending them back home. But the Senate (Kennedy) bill won't work either and I think they (Dems AND repubs) know that too. There is no way that these millions can be located and sorted into the 3 neat little groups the Senate proposes (been here over 5 years, under a year, etc), in order to determine who must pay a fine/back taxes, etc...

We all know neither of these plans work. The way it is now, both parties seem guilty of creating a situation where corporations and illegal immigrants are benefiting to the detriment of US citizens. I am sure you are right that the Repubs are hoping this works against the Dems...but it seems that the Dems could turn this right around to their own advantage, if they stood up and actually proposed something intelligent and reasonable that took a hard stand against corporations, and addressed concerns of border control at the same time...

(would like to think and write more here but have to run for for an appt!!)

[Skidmore]

43. This is exactly why I'm frustrated that the Dems could choose

to make themselves ineffective as well.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

59. I am too and wonder if there is any hope.

Are any of them "flexible" enough to do anything about this?

[The2ndWheel]

11. As long as capital is more important than people

the problem won't change.

The bigger problem however, is that "our" representatives represent 600,000-700,000 people on average, and about 3 million people on average, respectively. It's far easier to listen to a couple hundred lobbyists. But that's an issue with the political system, and there's not a damn chance that that's going to change, so.

Anyone want to figure out the odds on whether or not this problem is a topic of "debate" 20 years from now? Endless, endless debate.

[alcibiades_mystery]

14. Twenty years from now people will be laughing at this topic

It will look as bizarre to them as the school bussing or the Red Scare looks to us now. This is nativism, dead but too dumb to lie down.

[The2ndWheel]

34. Nothing goes away

At the very least, this topic will change shape into something else, but at the root will be the same.

[alcibiades_mystery]

37. You're right

People will be laughing at the responses, I should have said.

World's changing, and it's ride or suck grass.

[Upfront]

15. You are correct.

As usual we have our head up our ass.

[Daphne08]

17. You are right. n/t

[Enthusiast]

18. Right!

It is the single issue that can bring us down. By a wide margin the American people want the borders under control and want no amnesty for illegals. People feel threatened, about their work and jobs. This giant influx of cheap labor contributes to this.

[Strelnikov_]

20. Agree. Like Tom Hartman Says, We Need To Change The Frame

from 'Illegal Immigration' to 'Illegal Employer'.

[bunkerbuster1]

48. Illegal Employer. I like that.

But since it comes from the emminently sensible and clear-headed Hartman, not surprising.

[oc2002]

78. yeah, that does have a good ring to it.....

??? frame the issue as a enforcement issue is a winner for the dems.

[me b zola]

89. Hartman understands labor issues

and the historical pattern of corporations flooding the labor market to drive down wages and labor protections. He is spot on.

[endarkenment]

21. GOP wedge issue.

We should ignore the issue and let the GOP wedge themselves into a corner. The Hispanic voter is a natural Democratic voter and we have much more to gain from the Hispanic voting base than from the lost cause of white american male bigots. Thanks for the defeatist suggestion though.

[MrTriumph]

29. We are not white bigots, fool.

"... we have much more to gain from the Hispanic voting base than from the lost cause of white american male bigots."

Protecting American workers of all races from the theft of jobs by illegals is not based on bigotry.

If you feel it is, you obviously can't think through this issue.

[endarkenment]

31. This wedge issue is an appeal to the white male bigot voter.

That doesn't make you neccesarily a white male bigot. Proposing that for political reasons Democrats get behind some good old fashioned xenophobic immigrant bashing, which was the OPs position, is in fact politically stupid. The Democratic Party is not going to recapture the white male bigot voter. The Democratic Party has a lot more to gain by solidifying the growing Hispanic voting base as solid Democratic.

[Skidmore]

35. The OP would like to take issue of your characterization of her.

If you don't mind. First, I would point out that I said that this issue is a national security and a labor issue. To me, it absolutely makes no sense that our elected officials are overseeing the shipping of whole industries overseas and the importing of an entire labor force (not all Hispanic). The sole purpose of these practices is to break the American worker and the labor movement in this nation. Do you think that there are enough of these 21st century jobs they keep talking about for every American worker? The American child is not being educated adequately to participate in a 20th century labor force, let alone this century's. With all the safety nets being pulled away and wages being scaled back, do you believe that prices of utilities will be scaled back in accordance with this stupid notion of "economies of scale." Enforce the laws on the books and hold employers responsible for their crimes. Get the money and corruption out of politics so that we have representatives of the people working for us--ones who will stand up for the working person. Some of that includes enforcing immigration law as well as labor laws.

Second, it is a security issue. As much as I believe that the current state of international relations is very much manufactured by * and his cronies, we have to live in that world. As long as they continue to whip up anger in the world, then we do need to attend to national security on our borders and ports of entry. Until such time as the people of this nation get sick of living in fear and get rid of this neocon crime ring, doing otherwise is not an option.

Before you toss invectives around so freely, perhaps you would stop to consider that a substantial majority of Dems and Rs are in agreement that this is a serious issue. Those 69% poll numbers would indicate that people are being impacted by the lack of a coherent immigration and labor policy in this nation and want some constructive answers.

[unlawflcombatnt]

101. More False Statements

It has nothing to do with racism or xenophobia, and everything to do with sticking up for all American workers. It's about showing concern for what the overwhelming majority of both parties want, rather than Corporate America and their pro-amnesty dupes.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[-..__...]

44. I kind'a doubt it.

"The Hispanic voter is a natural Democratic voter..."

Possibly on certain issues (unions, health care), but on other issues (gay marriage, abortion), Hispanics tend to have devote Christan values.

[endarkenment]

50. 53 - 44 Kerry.

What was the white male vote spread?

[-..__...]

52. Were they voting for/against the person or the party?

[endarkenment]

53. How about answering the question rather than

trying to avoid it?

[MrTriumph]

55. How about not calling your opponents bigots, fool

Skidmore makes a valid point.


And calling white males bigots is offensive, endarkment. There is probably an anti-white male web site out there. Find it. You'll be happier.

[endarkenment]

66. I didn't.

I said that the issue appeals to the white male bigot demographic, which is not the same as saying that all supporters of whatever it is the OP is proposing here are bigots. Many are just naive and/or confused.

Here I'll nicify the argument for you.

The voting demographic that might go to the polls on this issue is the 'reagan democrat': the white male surburban working class conservative. This voter is already going to the polls and voting Republican for a lot of other reasons and is unlikely to, on this issue alone, switch sides and start voting for gay-loving antiwar pro affirmative action abortion loving progressive taxation universal healthcare separation of church and state Democrats. OK?

Going after the white male bigot vote is the wrong demographic.

[Skidmore]

68. Just noting that the nearly 70% of the nation that believes that

illegal immigration is a serious issue reflects more than white bigoted males, unless of course there has been a drastic reduction in all other ethnic groups and white females. And I'm also fairly certain that of that nearly 70%, many others beyond that demographic will be going to the polls in November. I would also suggest that sometimes a national problem is just that--a national problem affecting all citizens and not necessarily just one of race or gender.

[MrTriumph]

79. BS, endarkment. You stated immigration is the lost cause of...bigots

Baloney, endarkment. Here is your quote: "The Hispanic voter is a natural Democratic voter and we have much more to gain from the Hispanic voting base than from the lost cause of white american male bigots."

Illegal immigration is a concern for many more people than 'bigots', if indeed it is a cause for bigots. Think about it. Who is most hurt by illegal immigrants? Poor Americans of all races.

Seems white male bigots would find causes that would only benefit whites, not ones that seek a better life Americans of all races.

[endarkenment]

84. Not what I said.

Here is what I said: "we have much more to gain from the Hispanic voting base than from the lost cause of white american male bigots." White male bigots are a lost cause. Do you disagree?

[MrTriumph]

93. Oh, good. So you agree immigration is not a racial issue? Thanks.

Glad I misunderstood all your labeling.

[-..__...]

57. Ummm, because I don't know what the white male spread was.

:shrug:

However, a more fair comparison would be "what was the Hispanic male/White male spread", or "what was the Hispnaic/White spread"?

[endarkenment]

67. Maybe you should have looked it up when you said my

argument about demographics was wrong. It is overwhelmingly Republican.
Bush defeated Kerry 61-38% among white male voters.

[MrTriumph]

94. And you point is what again? Oh, that all the opposition is racist, huh?

x

[Carni]

56. Yes, DS you are correct

I for one think we have enough of that crap in the country currently and I certainly don't fancy a whole new wave of it.

[Zookeeper]

69. I don't think it's safe to assume that Hispanics...

always are, or will always be, Democratic voters. A member of my extended family is a second-generation Hipanic-American and also a die-hard Rethuglican. He also happens to take advantage of the cheap labor offered by illegal workers.

Also, what about devoted Catholics? Are they going to vote against the wishes of their church and vote for the pro-choice, pro-equal (gay and women's) rights party, once the illegal immigration issue is settled?

There is no guarantee of the Hispanic vote for either party.

[endarkenment]

70. Safe to assume? Not what I said.

I said that they are a natural constituency, unlike the white suburban male voter who is clearly not a natural constituency anymore and hasn't been for 25 years. The Democratic Party should choose a course that appeals to Hispanic voters rather than alienates them.

[Zookeeper]

72. Natural constituency?

That's an assumption. I disagree for the reasons I stated above, plus you can't generalize about "Hispanics" because they aren't a homogeneous group of people. Anti-Castro Cuban-Americans (and immigrants) aren't a natural constituency, either.

[endarkenment]

85. Sure you can generalize.

A natural constituency is not neccesarily 'a sure thing'. All I mean is that in general Hispanic voters are easy for the Democratic Party to capture and not so easy for the Republican Party to capture the allegience of. The party has to actually address their concerns and issues to do so, or the other party has to so completely alienate them that it becomes 'a sure thing', as in the african american voter.

The point is that all immigrant populations tend to be natural constiuencies for the Democratic Party, and the current immigration wave is largely Hispanic. Alongside that is the equally natural animosity within the working class between the already heres and the new arrivals. Our party has long had to reconcile this conflict in all of its forms, including our long shitty history of pandering to white male working class bigots in preference to the 'newly arrived' in the form of emancipated african americans. We worked out that latter issue by having LBJ essentialy transfer the southern cohort of the white male bigot voter to the republican party in '64.

[Skidmore]

74. There is no such thing as a natural constituency.

Particularly when you have a party operating with free-floating concensus.

[paparush]

22. Address BOTH sides of the issue..

In most cases, behind the illegal workers is a US citizen willing to pay them to work here. Want to slow the tide of illegal border crossings, make it less attractive to come here. It will become less attractive when American employers start getting hit w/ HEAVY fines and having business licenses revoked for paying undocumented workers.

Neither of these will happen because our economy depends on this pool of less expensive labor. It helps keep prices lower and helps preserve American's sense of economic security.

When mainstream 'Murkah is hit w/ real prices (kind of what's happening w/ gasoline right now) and if easy credit ever disappears, THEN you will see the sleeping giant of populism awake.

I for one can't wait!

[bluethruandthru]

23. I don't think so ....

The repukes have turned their backs on this issue for years. They've given a wink and a nod to the businesses who hire illegals..while at the same time threatening to round up and deport (or jail) all the illegal workers. I think most Americans are wising up to their "anything that's good for business is good for the country" crap.
I think the dems have a chance to flip some repub voters on this issue.

[KharmaTrain]

24. Where Are The Unions?

Sorry...this is a racist issue. We're not discussing the thousands of illegal Polish or Indian (as in India) "immigrants" who I see daily around the Chicago area. It's all about Mexicans and plays upon all types of stereotypes that are the red meat of the Repugnican party.

The issue is economic and social...not security. These people aren't coming across the border with guns...most barely have the clothes on their back. They're not coming here to blow up buildings...they're here to do cheap labor jobs that large corporations need and can pay below minimum wage with little or no benefits...but that's better than the wages they'd get working in an American corporate factory in Central America. These are people who lived in second-class conditions in their native country and are willing to do so here...doing the hardest jobs...cause they can earn as much in an hour here as they would in a day where they lived.

Given better labor practices in these countries...forcing Mexico and others to set pay and health standards in their factories (especially the ones owned by American corporations) as well as fining and shaming the individuals and corporations who use this near slave labor so that they hire American workers first would go a long way in solving a lot of the problems with this manufacturered issue.

I've known and worked with Mexicans...many illegal...as well as other immigrant groups for over 30 years and their reasons for being here are identical to what brought my grandparents...poor living conditions and a way to give their children a better life. The difference was immigration laws a century ago favored allowing immigrants in and letting off the boats and right into the factories...the allowing them earn citizenship. Today, legally immigrating takes years and is selective in who gets in and how many.

I wish the Unions would speak up on this issue as its the reason they came to power in the first place. They need to show how American corporations exploit these people and how the Repugnican party now uses it to create a strawman issue that diverts away from the corruption that is running rampant in Washington.

Representing the American worker is to have representation for ALL workers...including the underclass who put up with poor working and living conditions with little to no rights. We make things better for these people on both sides of the border and the issue clears up. Given the chance to stay in their native country or come to one that they know discriminates against them...what do you think most of those crossing the border would choose?

[MrTriumph]

30. 6 million Mexicans are here illegally. How many Poles?

Get real. The reason Mexico is at the heart of this issue is Mexico is exporting people by the millions. Poland is not exporting millions.

And you say you favor "forcing Mexico and others to set pay and health standards in their factories". Just how are you going to force them? Come on. This we need to hear.

[KharmaTrain]

33. I Thought It Was 12 Million

Let's look at this closer...

Why is Fox in Mexico isn't in cahoots with the booosh cabal in a lot of this? I see a lot of American corporations that ran south of the border in the wake of NAFTA and were able to avoid labor laws and $10 an hour jobs became $10 a day ones...with Fox getting a nice kick back in the process. It's not like these illegal immigrants go running the streets...these people find jobs...and whose hiring them? When was the last time we heard of a Del Monte or a Con Agra getting fined for their hiring of illegals who keep their labor costs down and they dump the burden of health care on the local communities. Where are the suits to recoup the losses from these corporations?

The first step would be enforcement of existing laws that are supposed to punish the users of this labor, but is rarely enforced. Hit a contractor $1,000 a day for every illegal he hires and its gonna be worth his while to find other labor.

Again, the unions need to step up...organize like they did under Chavez in California and across the Southwest...and also to put pressure on the American corporations that exploit labor in Mexico. It'd be nice if the Democratic party saw the value in promoting forcing American corporations to keep jobs in this country or offer similar wages in Mexico to what they do here. Canada has many laws in place that protect workers and unions...we see how that's worked for both countries.

[MrTriumph]

54. Answer: 12+ mil is the total # of illegals from all countries in the US.

Answer: 12+ million is the total # of illegals from all countries in the US.

Another number: Mexicans in the US illegally total about 6 million. Mexico has seen an exodus of another 6 million who immigrated legally to the US & other countries.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

63. Have any sources for these stats?

...and I do wonder who is keeping tallies of all illegal immigrants and how they arrived at the figures. I venture a guess that these numbers are in some cases HIGHER and in some LOWER than what we are reading.

[MrTriumph]

80. Pew Reseach has done extensive studies. Oh, and read a newspaper

once in a while.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

90. what a jerky response

and posting misleading and inaccurate info on top of it...

[MrTriumph]

92. Well, I tailored it just for you.

x

[Jacobin]

26. yep

[oneold1-4u]

27. The reasons and origins

Because most citizens of the US had to hold a job year around, when it was a crop season that demanded quick response, it was necessary to have a type of guest worker. The mexican nationals were grateful and willing to come to the US to help harvest and take home enough to feed their families for a year.
Over the years, they have found that what they are willing to work for, in the US, allows them many advantages of "poor and low income" and that is better than anything Mexico will offer for many years to come.
Our system of help for the nations seniors, disabled, low income, and unemployed, is not prepared to subsidize 12 million!
The US still gives millions to Mexico and it has never helped the people of that country to improve their existence. The US should stop that foreign aid and put it into a plan for taking care of the Mexican illegals and make it separate from the over taxed needs for legal citizens.

[Minnesota Libra]

32. I do wish more Dems/Liberals would wake up to this fact. It doesn't......

....matter what people ultimately want or think is personally fair - what matters is how the American people believe and how they will vote. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that.:banghead:

[treestar]

38. It is not that important unless you let the RWs make it so

The immigration laws are old fashioned and need to be changed to go along with reality. No one is looking at the laws themselves and how irrational they are.

The Act of 1952 needs to be completely scrapped and a Canadian model adopted. That will result in fewer illegals by law and make enforcement somewhat possible.

Even Mexico has a more logical set of immigration laws. The Irish have a good set, mainly because they didn't even NEED any until the 1990s. So they have a 1990s model.

We have a 1952 model and it's about to quit running no matter how many patch up and repairs have been done. There are plenty of other countries that have good models to use.

It is time for people to look at this intellectually and not emotionally.

[jsamuel]

39. This issue is not as simple as you express.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

42. kick

[OhioChick]

45. You're right.

I live in a highly blue area and am finding life-long Dems really upset (to put it mildly) regarding the Dems stance on illegal immigration. I'm hoping that it's not enough to sway votes.

[dpbrown]

46. NAFTA screwed the American worker, borders won't help

We're all from somewhere else if you go back far enough.

[MrTriumph]

81. Borders do work when enforced.

Oh, and my grandfather immigrated from eastern Europe LEGALLY.

[Norquist Nemesis]

49. Until the Dems fight back with a 'No Amnesty to Illegal Hiring'

type of push, I agree with you. Several Dems I know keep saying "the Mexicans/Illegals are taking jobs away from Americans! Why can't you see that?" My response is that they can't take a job that isn't offered.

For too long, the Dems just can't seem to get a handle on how to fight the Cons rhetoric. Far too long. For instance, if they would come right back at the "you want to cut and run" finger pointers with "I want to Cut the Crap! What should be happening is..." Same thing with the "Immigration Problem". Turn it around by advocating "No Corporate Amnesty". As soon as a Con tries to refute it, it's easy to keep them on the defense with a whole slew of Corporate Welfare and Amnesty programs the Cons have doled out.

[MrTriumph]

58. Well said.

I wish our "leaders" in the congress would accept your slap 'em around tactics. The public would better know where we stand. (Maybe that's why they don't slap around Republicans. They don't want Us Democrats to know about their enabling.)

[eowyn_of_rohan]

64. Great solution. Do you think they have already thought of it?

I would hope so. But why aren't they pushing for this? That is the most frustrating part.

[sandnsea]

97. Well they do

But Lou Dobbs and DU never repeat what Dems say so it's no wonder most DUers never know. God forbid somebody would shut Lou Dobbs off and actually listen to what the Kennedy actually says about illegal employers, you know, listen to the guy who actually wrote the legislation. What a fuckin' idea!!

[LittleClarkie]

51. Naw, apparently the Dems in the Senate think setting a date in Iraq

will lose the election for us. So the immigration issue is in the clear :sarcasm:

But anyway, isn't it weird how the President is "the liberal" on this issue, against most in his own party, and the Dems sorta agree with him. And yet I can see where you're coming from. I wish the Dems would get back to populist issues.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

60. It's a non-issue raised by the rightwing to stir up the rightwing.

The Dems, for once, are on the right side of the issue. At least some of them, like Kennedy.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

91. wake up

asinine ignorant BS

[NashVegas]

61. Bullshit It's Pure Racism

I came to this conclusion recently, while chowing down at my favorite Mexican restaurant.

They keep a few TVs turned on, to the Spanish language channels. Come in around lunch time or just after, and you can watch telenovelas, their soap operas.

The people you see on your cable Spanish channels look very little like the Mexican people I see in the restaurant and in my community. The people on TV are mostly white or very, very light-skinned with European facial features.

The people I see around me appear to have much more in common, genetically, with indigenous - native - Americans. The people we nearly wiped out, and have lately been enjoying some success with the casinos.

But they move up here, take OUR jobs and my goodness! How dare they walk out of the reservation and into our capitalist territory?

[MrTriumph]

96. You are out-to-lunch, Crisco.

It is NOT racist to protect the jobs of millions of Americans of all races.

I guess you'd feel differently if it were YOUR job in danger.

[cherokeeprogressive]

98. So you think Audra Schmierer is a racist?

She had her SSN stolen by an untold number of illegal aliens. She found out when she got a tax bill from TX for 16000 in back taxes. She has 213 W2 forms in her name.

I don't know about you, but I think theft of ANY kind is a malicious act, and a crime. Coming into this country illegaly is a crime.

And you'd prefer to see those people who committed these crimes be given a "path to citizenship"? Not now... Not Ever.

Read about Audra. Here's the link. Think she's the only one?

Racist my ass.

http://articles.news.aol.com/business/article.adp?id=20060616231709990002&_mpc=business.10.4&cid=842

[Jade Fox]

62. Neither party is taking the Immigration issue seriously....

The Republicans don't really want to get rid of a dirt cheap labor pool, and the Democrats are too busy terminally nice and politically correct about it.

I doubt it will determine any election, however.

[adwon]

99. DING DING

Thank you!

[Ganja Ninja]

65. It's not as if the GOP has done anything effective to stop ...

the flow across the border. All they're doing is talking bad about immigrants. Until they stop the flow across the border they will have nothing to run against the Dem's on this issue.

[Jed Dilligan]

71. First, keep our policy vague.

Make up a buzzword like "flagrant violators" or "repeat employers" that describes whom you want to sicc the Feds on.

Use imagery of "beefing up" border defense. Call it defense, make it into a military failure for Bushco.

Which brings up the most important point: stay on the offensive. Always remind them about the numbers Clinton v. Bush.

Finally, when they elect you, fuck it. It's a stupid proposal and it will be forgotten a few weeks after the vote.

[Ksec]

75. I agree

I also agree we need to start fining the employees who hire non-citizens. Its already the law.

But the repukes are divided on this isuue also. Its not an issue either party is going to highlight in the elections.

I believe the Dems are showing intestinal fortitude , of late, on the war issue. Its refreshing to see. Keep it up .

[madmusic]

77. What's wrong with using Bush's own position?

A road to citizenship that can't be blamed as liberal.

[Idioteque]

82. I disagree: Democrats should not be tricked into protectionsim.

That's exactly what anti-immigrant forces are trying to do. Immigrants drive down the price of labor in some occupations. Over all, however, the lower prices are good for the economy and good for poor families. Blocking immigrants is just like putting up tarrifs. It helps those in certain fields but over all it's a bad idea and a cripple on the economy.

[Skidmore]

83. Must be a freetrader.

Dems have been lead down the rosy path of selling out the American worker. Doodads and trinkets might be cheap, but staples are not. Actually a few tariffs might help. And the economy isn't as whizbang as some would think it is.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

86. are you kidding? this issue is a godsend....

Were it not for the actual lives involved in the calculus, I'd be inclined to dance up and down at this republican gift. The hard right wants * to build fences and deport, the middle right just wants him to enforce the law, and rightwing small businesses want to hold onto cheap labor. Now, how are they gonna write all that into a platform? And why did they wait five years to address it? If the Democrats' primary position on this is WHY THE FUCK HAS IT TAKEN YOU SO LONG TO GET WITH THE PROGRAM? and WHY DON'T YOU EVEN HAVE A PROGRAM YET? we'll be fine.

[Lusted4]

87. Diebold is the only thing that can lose the election for Democrats n/t

[redqueen]

88. Huh? It's a gift!

They've REDUCED enforcement, angered their corporate donors, and riled up their base for some kind of aggressive action, when we all know none will be taken.

It's a ruse, and frankly I'm (sadly, not really too) shocked to see it paraded out here.

As said above, the only thing that can lose this election for us is diebold.

[madokie]

95. You got it. Yes we need the dems to show they are for the working,

the non-working, the insured, the uninsured, the worried, the not so worried, the well off, the not so well off, the tired and the hungry.

[unlawflcombatnt]

100. Absolutely Right

I couldn't agree with you more. The Dems are letting a very vocal minority, as well as Corporate America, determine their position on illegal immigration. It's a recipe for failure in November.

It's also worth repeating that the Democratic Party elite are on the same side as King George on this one.


unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[MzNov]

102. Dem Illegal Immigration Statement

it's really very simple folks:

"Ladies and Gentlemen: The Democratic Party hopes to address the complex issue of immigration reform with ALL PARTIES, together we will enforce employment to the fullest, as President Clinton's administration did. We will start at the top to ensure that employers adhere to strict rules about hiring non-legal U.S. workers."

I wish Dems would just quit making every issue so damm perplexing, with so many choices. Not that the issues aren't complicated. But we need to just get the hell in office, then work out all the details. Republicans stand back and make sweeping general statements (usually lies), but that's how they get the voters.

:think:

[Maestro]

103. Support the American worker by calling on heavy

penalties on companies from the agriculture, restaurant, hotel and construction industries that knowingly hire undocumented workers.