Do you agree with Kerry's cut-and-run deadline for Iraq?

[Clarkie1]

Please read this NYT article first, then vote.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/21/washington/21kerry.html?_r=1&hp&ex=1150862400&en=d52bb8294f60def2&ei=5094&partner=homepage&oref=slogin

And then vote in the poll and comment on why you voted the way you did. I will be honest, I felt anger towards Kerry after reading that article, and I've never felt anger towards him before. Especially after I read Feingold was more willing to unite with the rest of the Democratic caucus. A deadline is not a plan, and we are not the ones setting the policy. What Kerry doing will not help to bring the troops home any faster, and will open the Party up to charges we are indecisive and "cut and run" instead of focusing the 06' election on the tragic mistakes and failures of the Republican leadership. I have no doubt Rove loves what Kerry is doing...just mho, of course.

[dailykoff]

1. It's over, we lost, let's get the hell out of there.

The NYT is a stinking POS.

[Bucky]

27. I'm bothered by the morality of fucking up the place & then leaving it.

Ethically, I can't see how we can do anything that we can't expect others to do. Powell was right: once you break it, you own it. The 2500 dead Americans is only a down payment for the cost that this country incurred when it entered Iraq. I hate hate hate this occupation, but to exit now raises some serioud moral questions. The Iraqis can't just up and leave the country and "come home" like we want our troops to do.

I'm not saying staying on is the right answer either, tho. I think it's clear that our continuing presense there is aggravating the situation. But looking at the pathetic shape Iraqi forces are in suggests that our staying there may not be a net negative. How can we leave that country in the hands of forces that are a perfect blend of Three Stooges and Fifth Columnists? Besides, I see no evidence that in the next twelve months our own government is going to do anything right by way of training the Iraqis to take over their country.

There's no right decisions here. I'd love to support a choice based on what will save American lives... but aren't we a little bit past that sort of argument?

[pnwmom]

37. I don't know how old you were during Vietnam, Bucky, but

staying in the middle of that civil war didn't work, and staying in the middle of this one won't either.

We're part of the problem now, not the solution.

[Bucky]

44. I'm 42. But here's where I think the Vietnam analogy breaks down...

(edited to nuance my position, not to flip flop)

In Vietnam we were propping up one side in a nationalist war of liberation (because the nationalists, thru our own blundering, became allied with the Russian flavor of communism). We were supporting the losing side in a two way fight and the RVN government was only viable because we were propping it up. It's probably worth noting that we didn't start that war, too; we only kept it running longer than it should have been.

Iraq is nothing like that. Normally I support the Vietnam analogy because it's valid for American domestic purposes. But internally, the situation in the affected country is not the same. In Iraq there is no winning side that we are opposing. There's no winning side at all. It's just a damned shooting gallery. We are aggravating the situation, but I don't know if you can say our presense there is in total making it net worse.

Altho he's being a dick with this "cut and run" malarky, Clarkie1 is making a valid point: this proposal is bad PR, won't accomplish what it proposes, and splits the party. On top of that removing US troops from the equation (assuming it somehow could be accomplished) won't lead to a resolution of the core problem--several entrenched and ruthless and unaffiliated insurgencies with countervaling agendas and a willingness to kill lots of innocent people to prove their points.

It's not a matter of preventing a regime coming to power who we don't like, as in Vietnam. NO one is about to come into full control of Iraq. If any party can eventually calm the place down, it would be the current government that both our tax dollars and Halliburton's overpaid security goons are supporting. Leaving would save American lives, but it would almost certainly mean increasing by innumerable thousands the number of Iraqi killed in the years it would take for some kind of peacing down to take place. In war, you measure morality by headcounts. That's why I opposed the war to begin with. But that's also why I'm troubled by the exit strategy. I should add that I'm more deeply troubled by Bush's lack of an exit plan. Kerry's right to label it "Lie and Die."

I'm saying the captain shouldn't leave the Titanic. I'm saying that knowing that means I'm supporting more American kids dying. It sickens me. But sacrificing Iraqi lives to save American lives isn't acceptable when it was Americans who started the damn war and when Americans collectively had the ability to see thru the president's lies and failed to think critically enough to prevent the reckless adventurism of our public servants.

I'd love for there to be a right choice in this situation. But there isn't one.

[EFerrari]

48. Our presence there is making it a net worse. n/t

[pnwmom]

50. "On top of that removing US troops from the equation

(assuming it somehow could be accomplished) won't lead to a resolution of the core problem--several entrenched and ruthless and unaffiliated insurgencies with countervaling agendas and a willingness to kill lots of innocent people to prove their points."

But keeping US troops IN the equation won't lead to a resolution of the core problem either. That's what Murtha says, and I believe him. There's no way we're going to get out of this without a civil war in Iraq. We're just prolonging the agony by staying there.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bunkerbuster1]

3. Please change "Democratic Leadership" to "Democrat Leadership"

I need to be prepared for their talking points.

[sandnsea]

15. Or maybe democrap or just plain rats

why not just bring out the nastiest shit possible.

Gads.

[Rowdyboy]

4. Read the article and I'm pissed at Kerry....He's tone deaf and has no

feel for serious politics. He allows his ego to derail any serious attempt at party unity. It amazes me he's been as successful as he has in holding onto elective office. The man has a tin ear/

His ridiculous presidential ambitions for 2008 prove the man has absolutely no grasp of reality. He's as dense a Tom Daschle and Joe Biden. His day has come and is long gone. Lets move on to a winner willing to fight if necessary to win the presidency and rescue us from the terrorists who occupy the White House.

[Clarkie1]

6. THANK YOU!

I've had enough of Kerry's self-centered political shenanigans, and I'm tired of holding back on exactly how pissed I am about it!

THIS LATEST MOVE IS HURTING THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY'S CHANCES IN 06' AND WON'T DO A DAMN THING TO BRING ONE MORE AMERICAN SOLDIER HOME ANY SOONER!

[sandnsea]

11. And another Clark supporter n/t

[liberalpragmatist]

5. I don't know

And I don't think anybody does. Iraq is clearly a clusterfuck and there are no good options - only bad and worse options. I lean towards Kerry's proposal on this, although I think he should definitely vote for the compromise resolution if his amendment fails (as it probably will) because a divided vote will again allow Democrats to be depicted as "divided" instead of focusing the attention on how the Republicans have no strategy for Iraq.

[Clarkie1]

28. You are truly the liberal pragmatist.

:-)

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

7. Gee why don't we all post threads with RW talking points as the title?

After all, we better "get used to it"!

I think I'll do a poll with the title "Who else thinks if Jack Murtha had been in WWII we'd all be speaking German and Japanese?"

Boy this is easy! Now you try one!

[Clarkie1]

12. I like and respect John Murtha, so I won't be doing that.

It is very difficult for me to have any respect left for Mr. Kerry at this point. What he is doing is hurting the Party's chances in 06', and does nothing to bring one American soldier home any sooner.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

22. But because you don't like Kerry, it's okay to use Rove talking points as

your own in the title of your post?

Your "better get ready for this" is total BULLSHIT.

Because by that reasoning, we could all put up posts with titles like this and the board would look just like FR. (Some posters in GD would probably love that though.)

When I suggest this, you back away by saying well you like Murtha.

It's crap either way. I don't like Hilary Clinton but to use some BS RW crap like "Hitlery" or whatever against her is unacceptable here on DU.

[Clarkie1]

31. No.

The reason I have that *particular* Republican talking point in the title is quite straighforward. It's not because I don't particularly like Kerry, that would be crass.

The reason is the specific ammendment that Kerry is proposing will enable the Republicans to use that very talking point against us, and it's both unnecessary and unhelpful to do that. Nobody has ever accused me of being subtle when I want to make a point. :-)

[pnwmom]

39. Why does it not hurt when Murtha says we should set a date and be

out in six months, but it does hurt for Kerry to say we should be out in a year?

[Clarkie1]

42. It's not so much what you do, it's how you do it. nt

[pnwmom]

49. I still don't get it. What's the difference between how Murtha's doing

it and how Kerry's doing it? All I can see is that Kerry's giving the administration more time.

[LittleClarkie]

8. I resent your use of the same terminology as the Republicans

Cut and run?

Stay and pay.

So General Clark advocates no deadline?

[Clarkie1]

9. I'm going to use that terminology as long as Kerry plays politics

like this. I'm sick of his self-centered, egotistical political shenanigans, and that's exactly what they are.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

14. You're going to use it as long as you can get away with it on this board.

"A undercover cop has got to be Marlon Brando. To do this job you got to be a great actor. You got to be naturalistic. You got to be naturalistic as hell. If you ain't a great actor you're a bad actor, and bad acting is bull shit in this job."

[Clarkie1]

21. So you want to support the Republicans cut-and-run meme

to use against us?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

24. I want us out of Iraq, on a timetable. If you and Rove feel this is "cut

and run" you can call it that.

I have alerted on you for this thread and will continue to do so every time I see something like this BS masquerading as "we have to be prepared for this".

I would recommend all DUers who don't want to see FR.com post titles littering this board to do the same.

"A undercover cop has got to be Marlon Brando. To do this job you got to be a great actor. You got to be naturalistic. You got to be naturalistic as hell. If you ain't a great actor you're a bad actor, and bad acting is bull shit in this job."

[Clarkie1]

40. Oh, please....sorry, but this is not FR.

So you can rest assured free speech will survive. You do indeed think like Machiavelli (I never did care much for his philosophy, myself, although I suppose we've all been a little Machiavellian at times).

I had a good reason to say what I did, and I'm glad I did. It's not that I think it is "cut and run." You clearly are not paying attention.

[LittleClarkie]

19. I see something different

I see someone who'd committed to ending the damn war. As he said when someone on the floor of the Senate suggested something similar: "Nobody spins me when it comes to the troops. Period." You can disagree. But I dispute strongly that he's playing politics.

You have your opinion. I have mine.

[Clarkie1]

23. Fair enough, but I want to be honest with you.

At this point my opinion on Kerry is at a point of no return, and it's my honest opinion.

[LittleClarkie]

30. Oh well. So you'll be voting for someone else in the primaries.

I will vote for Kerry. If he doesn't make it and Clark does, then I'll vote for Clark.

But my first choice is Kerry. And that's pretty much at a point of no return as well. I'm a Kerrycrat.

But to each his or her own.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

10. Oh, but they're posing a "provocative challenge" to the board! We have to

"get used" to these talking points, and what better way than having DUers post these as their own, then claim it was some kind of exercise?

This is such good practice we should ALL do it, and soon the top page of every forum will look just like FR.com or Hannity's site!

Then we'll all be prepared!

"A undercover cop has got to be Marlon Brando. To do this job you got to be a great actor. You got to be naturalistic. You got to be naturalistic as hell. If you ain't a great actor you're a bad actor, and bad acting is bull shit in this job."

[Clarkie1]

25. We can choose if they are able to use that talking point against us or not

without in any way lessening pressure on the administration to change course and bring the troops home sooner, not later. So yes, it is Kerry's "cut and run" ammendment, because that's the gift he will give Rove to use against us if he succeeds (which he won't, but even if he doesn't the Republicans will use it to portray us as indecicive and "really" wanting to "cut and run.")

[Jim Sagle]

13. Rove will love you for this.

[Clarkie1]

16. Actually, Rove is loving Kerry for all he's doing at the moment. nt

Edit:

I notice you have Barbara Boxer's pic. I like Boxer, and I'm proud to have her as my senator, but I disagree with her strongly on this. I wrote a letter asking her to withdraw her support of Kerry's ammendment and support the majority of Democrats on this with reasons why I thought it was the best course of action.

[Casandra]

17. NOW!

Start packing right now. Perhaps we can be outta there by the end of the month.

[Clarkie1]

18. No, we can't. It would take a least 6 months by the best estimates. nt

[chill_wind]

20. Out. "Sovereign means sovereign."

They want us to leave. We said we would. Let's go.

[Yollam]

26. This Kerry detractor is with Kerry on this one.

If the democratic leadership want to drag their feet in getting out of Iraq, and Kerry is willing to set a date, then I'm with Kerry. Ideally, I am for full and immediate withdrawal, but Kerry's plan is the next best thing. As unpopular as this war is, it's amazing that there are STILL dems parroting the GOP "stay the course" line.

The occupation is illegitimate from the get-go. The only way to do right by the Iraqis is get the hell out.

[Clarkie1]

29. But neither the Democratic leadership or Kerry CAN get us out of Iraq.

We are not the ones setting the policy. Kerry's arbitrary, hypothetical deadline unecessarily complicates everything, and strengthens the Republican hand.

[Bucky]

33. Yes, but you do want an opposition that opposes, that's up to kicking ass

As I said above, leaving Iraq (I WON'T say cut and run and you shouldn't either) raises serious moral problems. After you fuck up a place you don't just walk away from it. We owe those people for bringing al-Qaeda into their lives. But Kerry does deserve some recognition for calling it right: the president's policy is "lie and die." Sadly, Mr Kerry came up with that line about 18 months too late.

[Clarkie1]

35. I want an opposition that kicks ass smartly, not stupidly. nt

[pnwmom]

41. I disagree. The American public knows they were tricked into going

into Iraq, they're sick of losing soldiers over there, and I bet the majority would think a year is plenty of time.

[oasis]

32. "cut-and-run"? Your characterization of Kerry's plan is what disagee with

because it has a Karl Rove ring to it.

That aside, I'm not particularly overjoyed about how Kerry handled this.

[Clarkie1]

34. You understand this is the gift Kerry is giving Rove. nt

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

36. So you repeatedly state, in your responses to everyone. Doesn't mean

it's so, or that everyone must agree with you.

"A undercover cop has got to be Marlon Brando. To do this job you got to be a great actor. You got to be naturalistic. You got to be naturalistic as hell. If you ain't a great actor you're a bad actor, and bad acting is bull shit in this job."

[Clarkie1]

43. Of course not, that's the beauty of Democracy!

Oh, and I wanted to tell you a better title for the thread would have been:

Do you agree with Kerry's "tell them when are going to cut and run" deadline for Iraq?

The nastiest part in quotes for good reason.

You know, it might be a good time now to take a deep breath and remember that we both:

1. Believe the war was a mistake
2. Dislike George Bush more than we dislike any Democrat (yes, even Joe)
3. Want less killing in Iraq, and our soldiers to come home sooner, not later
4. Want to win in 06'

Regarding #4, please understand it is my honest opinion (and you might even entertain the notion for a moment I could be right), that what Kerry is doing by leading the charge on this ammendment hurts our chances in 06' for reasons I have outlined already in this thread. Now, if someone was doing something you sincerely believed would hurt our chances in 06', and potentially hurt the Democratic Party longer term, how would you react? And, regarding #3, I don't believe the ammendment would have any effect.

I hope I can at least have at least some partial understanding in this matter, I don't expect agreement from you.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

45. So do you think all the DUers who agree with Kerry in your poll, are

"cut and runners" and deserving of your contempt, as is Kerry? :shrug:

"A undercover cop has got to be Marlon Brando. To do this job you got to be a great actor. You got to be naturalistic. You got to be naturalistic as hell. If you ain't a great actor you're a bad actor, and bad acting is bull shit in this job."

[Clarkie1]

46. No, you misunderstand me. That may be my fault for not making myself

more clear. "Cut and run" is a MEME, not what I think Kerry or those who agree with his approach to putting pressure on the administration are. It's a meme that I believe he is ENABLING the Republicans to use more effectively against us. At the same time, I don't believe setting (even if it had a chance in hell of passing) a deadline the administration will simply ignore will help bring soldiers home any sooner. It's a complicated mess, and I hate it. But that's the way I see it. The best we can do now is make it known we expect change in Iraq sooner, not later. Keep the pressure on that way. Most unfortunately, we are not the ones set the policy or deciding what the troop levels will be in July 2007. I hope they are all home by then and Iraq is stable, I really do....but I'm not holding my breath.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

56. So do you believe our soldiers should come home in a year's time?

All politics aside?

I believe Kerry believes this is what should happen, and I agree with him.

So now you're saying you don't actually AGREE with the "cut and run" label (BS), but you're only unhappy because it's POLITICALLY unwise. You're all over the place on this it appears, but as long as you make trouble on the board, I guess...

So if Kerry actually thinks we should do this, he shouldn't say so?

What do YOU think we ought to DO, and ought to SAY, oh oracle?

[pnwmom]

38. ONLY if we ALLOW Rove to frame it that way.

[teryang]

47. I prefer the stay and fail policy - it kills more people for nothing

...and destroys our economy as an added benefit.

[derby378]

51. Why the HELL are you using a Republican frame?

"Cut-and-run" is a frame that Jean Schmidt introduced to the public consciousness. Don't play the Repukes' game. Avoid that term at all costs. Didn't you read George Lakoff?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

54. Draw your own conclusions.. I'm more unhappy that the mods seem happy

to allow this kind of thing, so far...

[ProSense]

52. Swift boating Kerry to push Clark's position! Pathetic! n/t

[Mass]

53. My anger is at Reid dividing the caucus by feeding the media like that.

Sadly, he cant be expected to do his job. He should have said that all Dems are to withdraw troops. This is what his proposal and Kerry's are BOTH advocating.

As for the rest, coming from you, I am not surprised at all. I dont feel anger or anything at you, but a profound sadness that you cant get over your dislike for Kerry.

[TayTay]

57. I am not giving any more money to the DSCC

I withdraw from that. I have given them money twice in this cycle, but no more. I have had it with those milquetoast lemmings. I think they are out to destroy what is left of the Democratic Party.

C'mon Dems, take a stand. Show people a reason to vote FOR you.

[Ioo]

55. I love that you use an untrue subject line....

[bigtree]

58. this is bullshit

[Moderator]

59. locking....

This is flamebait.