BYU faculty member fired for op-ed comments on gay marriage..

[MnFats]

and he may be excommunicated from the LDS church....

well, who ever said there was free speech in the Mormon Church?

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_3934360

PROVO - As an American citizen, Jeffrey Nielsen felt compelled to publicly question the LDS Church's opposition to same-sex marriage. As a Brigham Young University instructor, he now is paying the price.
The LDS-owned school will not rehire Nielsen after spring term because of his remarks in an op-ed piece earlier this month.
"I believe opposing gay marriage and seeking a constitutional amendment against it is immoral," the part-time philosophy teacher and practicing Latter-day Saint wrote in the June 4 Salt Lake Tribune.
Four days after the column ran, BYU Department of Philosophy Chairman Daniel Graham sent Nielsen a letter informing him of his dismissal.
"In accordance with the order of the church, we do not consider it our responsibility to correct, contradict or dismiss official pronouncements of the church," the letter reads. "Since you have chosen to contradict and oppose the church in an area of great concern to church leaders, and to do so in a public forum, we will not rehire you after the current term is over."
Besides losing his BYU job, Nielsen now fears he could lose something more precious: his church membership.

[WindRavenX]

1. I did not know about the ex-comm. threat

My bf, who is a former Mormon from Utah, said that to be ex-communicated from Church, you had to do something REALLY bad-- like murder or have an abortion.

This seems way out of line...good grief.

[SimpleMan]

7. They'll excommunicate you for just about anything...

Technically being a lifelong Mormon myself, I can tell you that it doesn't take much to get exed from the LDS church. Anyone who speaks out against the church is walking a fine line.

I am a non-believer in the church, but I'll discuss it if somebody brings it up. I was personally threatened with excommunication when I printed out a speech by Brigham Young and gave it to another Mormon. I was trying to make a point about how the church had changed their "true gospel" over the last 100 years. That's all it took. Luckily, I know the bishop (the decider) pretty well, and he decided not to pursue it.

Personally, I don't care one way or the other (if they ex me or not). but my parents are church members, and it would kill them if that ever happened.

[Radical Activist]

9. If not the Bishop...

who threatened you with Excommunication? One church member who didn't like it doesn't sound like national church policy. It sounds like your Bishop was following standard operating procedure.

[SimpleMan]

11. The stake president

The stake president (one step above bishop) got some information from the mission president that I was an "apostate." And it is church policy. Simply speaking against "the prophet" is enough to get you exed. Even reading this post would cause them to reevaluate my membership...seriously.

[Radical Activist]

8. That does sound unlikely...but its more sensational isn't it? n/t

[MelissaB]

2. Shakes head

because I don't know what to say... :shrug:

[Bunny]

3. Okay, I'll say it. What did he *think* was going to happen?

Of course it was going to be a problem for him to say this stuff. BYU is a private school, they can make whatever rules they want. Same as the Catholics. If you are employed by the church, and you speak out against their core beliefs, you're going to get canned.

Is this right? - of course not. But what on earth do you expect?

[Igel]

4. My wife applied to some Mormon school a long time ago.

One requirement was at least public non-disagreement with their policies and standards.

Formally you'd sign an agreement as part of your contract stipulating moral conduct and the like; in practice, it was really a "notorious conduct" clause. Violate the rules, fine, but it was strictly "don't ask/don't tell". Since it was a voluntary agreement, they could do all kinds that things that they couldn't legally otherwise require.

[stevedeshazer]

5. The LDS own the school, so it's clearly within their right to fire him

But he is using his position as a BYU instructor to question the policy of discrimination against gays. This is an excellent time and place to raise the issue.

Best wishes to this man who challenges assumptions and asks questions, even in what many here consider a hostile environment, i.e. Salt Lake City.

It ain't your father's SLC anymore...things are changing.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

6. So if he thinks their position is immoral, why is being

excommunicated a bad thing. Sounds to me like it is proof positive that it is time to find a new church.

[SimpleMan]

12. I agree...

...but many in the church are so socially and culturally tied to it that they simply compartmentalize their disagreements with the church and go on as if nothing happened. Especially if they believe the basic principles of the church. Hell, we have DNA proof that the Book of Mormon is a complete fallacy, but try telling that to a good Mormon. It won't matter at all. They'll stick that information somewhere and tell themselves that God's ways are not man's ways. We're not supposed to understand.

All a bunch of shit, if you ask me. They are nothing but a multi-billion dollar corporation. Two corporations to be exact. They send out salesmen and women (missionaries) to bring more people to the church. More people...more tithing. And the poor missionaries don't get paid a dime. They're told they will be paid in Heaven. Hell, the missionaries have to actually pay the church nearly $400 a month just for the privilege of taking 2 years out of their life to shill for the church. It's crazy, but 31 billion dollars is nothing to sneeze at. And that was at last count.

It's a scam.

[MnFats]

13. excuse my ignorance but what is the 'DNA evidence' that shows BookoMormon

a complete fallacy?
just curious....maybe i haven't followed this stuff closely enough.

[SimpleMan]

16. According to the Book of Mormon...

...the first inhabitants of the American continent were a group (mostly one family) that sailed here from Jerusalem. They later became what we know as the American Indian (native American).

Anyhow a bishop (in the Mormon church) from Australia (who is also a microbiologist) decided to prove the Book of Mormon true. He and his team took samples from all of the known groups and tribes in both the North and South American continent. He was certain that this would finally prove that Mormonism is the only "true church." So he tested the DNA.

Funny thing happened. It turned out that there was virtually no Semitic markers at all in the sample. Instead, they pointed to a Mongolian lineage. So the whole premise of the Book of Mormon goes down in flames. Here's a link to his story:
http://www.exmormon.org/whylft125.htm

[Radical Activist]

18. Oh I don't know.

Just for the sake of argument...
First, the Book of Mormon doesn't claim that the descendants of the people written about didn't mix with people who migrated from other places. There's no expectation of a direct, undiluted lineage.

Second, there are at least three groups of migrants to the continent mentioned in the BoM, and only one group was from Israel.

Third, the BoM people were Israelites, but not Jews. They were part of the "ten lost tribes" not the tribe of Judah. The closest relatives to the BoM migrants were conquered and scattered into different parts of the Babylonian empire...maybe even into eastern Asia.

So, one could believe in the BoM and still logically not expect any close DNA ties between modern day Jews and Native Americans.

[SimpleMan]

19. If you say so...

...sounds like typical Mormon spin to me. Read the article. It's pretty cut and dry.

[Radical Activist]

20. Ok, I read the article...

I based my earlier comments on what I've read previously about the research. Most of the article the article you linked is about this man's own spiritual journey, which I respect, but it doesn't address any of the points I just raised. Most of the article isn't about the DNA issue at all, beyond a few paragraphs.

When I first heard about the DNA project, before the results were public, I thought it was a bad idea based on a false premise. Common readings of the Bible and Book of Mormon suggests that the closest genetic relatives of the Book of Mormon people were in a separate area, Israel to the North, not Judah to the South. The Israelites or "lost tribes" (who the BoM people came from) were scattered. Their closest relatives are throughout Europe and Asia, mixed in with other nationalities. Why shouldn't the DNA evidence reflect that? The Jews, according to the Bible at least, were living as a separate people at the time of the dispersion and weren't scattered.

I don't expect people to believe the Book of Mormon but I don't see why anyone who knows the Book of Mormon story would expect Native Americans to be close genetic matches to modern day Jews. I didn't. This article doesn't even touch the subject, which leaves me wondering whether he didn't think it through, or if there's some other reason for not discussing it. He also doesn't discuss the issue of later or earlier migrants who could have mixed with the BoM people. Furthermore, the scientific community is now more open to increasing evidence of sea migration from asia, not all on foot, as the author claims.

What it comes down to is that no one will ever be able to prove, or disprove, someone's faith by scientific analysis. Its not within the nature of religion.

[lindisfarne]

14. Unless you want to work within the church to change it (long shot, I agree

But what you said is very much like someone telling you to "find a new country" when you criticize the current government.

[Radical Activist]

10. Another reason I'm no longer Mormon.

If they want to not marry gay people, fine. But I have seen how much prejudice, hatred and division these marriage amendments cause in communities. All of these things are in violation of Mormon teachings. It was founded as a religion of compassion, peace and tolerance. Their hypocritical support of gay marriage amendments violates their own principles. The fact that the church abandoned its former stand on these and other principles is why I'm no longer LDS.

[Occulus]

15. yet another reason why I hate organized religion

Every religion, every sect. Organized religion makes me sick.

[NMMNG]

17. Really, what did he expect?

He expressed an opinion that showed free thought and was in direct opposition to church doctrine. Free thought and difference of opinion are simply not allowable in certain clubs.