It is Perfectly Honorable to Cut and Run when the battle's lost.

[Philosoraptor]

Cut and run is a perfectly logical response when you have failed in your mission and you are simply taking enemy fire and there's no hope of winning, you pull out to save your ass.

There's no cowardice in this maneuver. It's perfectly honorable to admit the battle is lost, and it's time to cut your losses and run and fight another day.

[hobbit709]

1. But

you're expecting intelligence and the use of logic on the part of "Our Glorious Leader" and his cohorts in crime.

[Dhalgren]

2. As a matter of fact both George Washington and Robert E. Lee

were known for their masterful retreats. The retreat is a vital military maneuver and is not a thing of shame unless it is spun that way. Lee assured victory in later battles by his skillful use of the retreat, and Washington achieved final victory in the Revolutionary War by knowing when, how, and WHY to retreat.

I am just sick of these armchair generals saying that our "face" as a nation is more important than the intelligent use of our military. I am also disgusted and worried that our military "leaders" are just rolling over for these fascist fucks. Remember how Hitler lost the entire German 6th Army at Stalingrad, just because he didn't want to "cut and run"? It was reprehensible then and it is even more so now...

[jerry611]

20. Retreat is different from surrender

What is being proposed by John Kerry is a surrender, not a retreat.
Murtha is proposing a retreat and then a redeployment.

These are two VERY different plans.

A retreat is used during a battle when you have lost the strategic advantage. A retreat is a pull back of forces to regroup and redeploy for another offensive. When you retreat, that means you are still fighting the war.

A surrender is when you pull out completely and give up the war. George Washington made retreats during the revolution because he was outnumbered and outgunned in practically every single battle. But he never surrendered. He kept fighting.

[Dhalgren]

22. We have already lost this "war". So, withdrawal, regardless of

how you categorize it, is the called for military move. It is simple murder, when a commander who has lost, continues to fight for some "other" reason and senselessly kills his own men. We cannot "win" this war - we have already lost it. Cutting and running sounds like the thing to do. To say "surrender" is misleading and a deplorable "spin" and you know it. Withdrawing from an illegal occupation that is un-winnable is not "surrender", it is practical, common sense. To do otherwise, at this point, is simply murder.

[ladjf]

36. It was losts before it began.

[msongs]

3. excuse me, but the war is WON!

no wmds, no nuke program, no sadaam, democracy is delivered (they had elections, that is sufficient.

we are a winner!!! so let's do what winners do, declare victory and get back to our own business :-)

Msongs

Can you sing?
www.msongs.com/vocalistwanted.htm

[Grillydad]

19. I couldn't agree with you more

Our military won this war. The Bush administration lost the politics of it before it started and in the aftermath. The loss is NOT a military one, its political and diplomatic. We need in our support of the troops to let everyone know that.

[Quantess]

42. Didn't we already win?

I distinctly remember that our dear leader announced "Mission Accomplished" a few years back.

[lpbk2713]

30. But BushCo (ie Halliburton) hasn't sucked all the oil out of Iraq yet!

There will be no victory declared until all the oil fields are dry. Then it will be time to fight for "democracy" in Iran. And then Venezuela will be the next to "save".

[Philosoraptor]

34. Right, when the oil is gone, goodbye Iraq, hello next in line.

Wherever there is oil, the U.S. will bring freedom and democracy.

[JDPriestly]

4. Don' worry.

Bush is planning to "cut and run." He always does the opposite of what he says. If he plans to cut funds to a program, he visits some project of the program, lauds its wonderful work, and then cuts and runs. If he wants to fire someone, he denies he will fire them, says what good work they are doing and cuts and runs.

Our troops will be called back -- because we have "won," of course and because the Iraqi police have taken over of course -- by January 2007. The pull-out will probably be announced with big fanfare before the Fall election. I bet they are destroying every area where they think insurgents and/or explosives might be right now in order to stop the bleeding just long enough to get out and let the Shiites take over and finish off the Sunnis. That's my prediction.

Of course we will try to keep troops there forever. Has anyone heard what the status or progress is on the huge embassy/military complex that we were building in Baghdad? When that is secure, most of our troops will be pulled out. That should be by the end of summer, shouldn't it? When did they start that complex?

[Philosoraptor]

23. The monstrous embassy is proof positive we are there permanently.

[IndyOp]

5. You can't "cut and run" from an occupation - and it is an occupation. nt

[Philosoraptor]

24. True that.

[Cassandra]

6. George Washington found it a very useful tactic...

until he could attack at a favorable opportunity.

[Sailor for Warner]

8. Indeed

His tactical retreats are still studied.

[Sailor for Warner]

7. Just for arguments sake

We did "cut and run" in Vietnam, that didnt turn out so well.

[NNN0LHI]

13. I think cutting and running from Vietnam worked out excellent

I turned 18 in 1973 and was about to be drafted the following year to get sent off to Vietnam to probably die like a dog face down in some rice paddy.

Luckily people with some common sense prevailed and that didn't occur.

Don

[TallahasseeGrannie]

39. Great for you

but not so good for the 100K Vietnamese who were executed without trials in the months that followed.

But I'm glad you didn't have to go, or perhaps you wouldn't be here today.

[NNN0LHI]

40. Not so great for the million or so Vietnamese we killed before we left

Or the 56,000 Americans who died along with them either.

All for another war based on lies.

Some people never learn.

Don

[Dhalgren]

25. I think that our "cutting and running" in Vietnam worked very

well. Vietnam is now an honored member of the international community. It has good, strong relations with the US and is a relatively prosperous, peaceful nation. It was the Vietnamese, remember, who moved in and put a stop to Pol Pot - when no one else in the world would. No, our leaving Vietnam was only a mistake in that we didn't do it ten years earlier...

[applegrove]

9. As Kerry pointed out.. Bush WH has cut & run from state department

expertese, from qualified military planning, from honesty on intelligence, from everything... to do this war.

[Montagnard]

10. The Marines at Chosen Reservoir didn’t consider it “cutting and running”

When the Chinese army came pouring over the boarder and broke through the Marine defense at Chosen, December 19. The marines didn’t think it was cutting and running to withdraw to the coast because they were surrounded; they considered it attacking in a different direction.

There are times in life when you need to adjust and develop a new strategy. If you are not flexible enough to do that you place being in jeopardy.

[emulatorloo]

11. "Cut and Run" is just more Repuglican STRAWMAN Bullshit

Nobody is "Cutting and Running." Dems say it is time for Iraqis to take over. And they are right.

So please don't repeat Karl Rove's bullshit strawman argument.

[Jim Warren]

21. Thank You, Thank You

Absolutamente!

It's in how they frame the whole friggin issue and rover boy is the BEST at this.

[sweetheart]

37. Yes, "strategic withdrawl"

The shared sovereignty of free will and collaboration are a better replacement
than bully stooge occupations... but heck, its an oil-robbery and we're just
hostages on the floor, all of uz, until the thieves leave.

[leesa]

12. It's also perfectly honorable to cut and run when you discover your leader

lied to start the war. In fact, it's morally imperative.

[emulatorloo]

14. P.S. Iraqi Pres and Vice Pres asked Bush for a withdrawal timetable

Bush and the repugs are lying with the phrase "Cut and Run". . .

VERY VERY IMPORTANT __ PLEASE TELL YOUR SENATORS ABOUT THIS, esp the Repug ones

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1442462&mesg_id=1442462

[Bluerthanblue]

35. we need to

disengage and allow the Iraqis to re-construct their OWN vision of what Iraq will be.

They are the ones who will have to live there, and maintain themselves- offering help, but allowing them to stand on their own without the presence of our enormous force sitting in their midst, is the only way they will ever recover, and hope to have any kind of normalicy.
We pulled the 'last straw' on an already shaky country- and while we cannot simply walk away and wash our hands of them, we can't force our version of 'correctness' or our 'way of life' on another people- that would be a kind of 'ethnic-cleansing' in itself.

Of course they want us out- We'd want THEM out- if the tables were turned.

"Cut and run" is just more of the bush administration public relations bullshit 'sound-bytes'-
I'd sure love to know how much of our money is paid for this administration to 'sell' the lies to the masses of american homes.-
It ain't peanuts- I'm sure of that-

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. Custer didn't think so.

Once he got those Indians surrounded and did the "shock and awe" thing on 'em.

[Philosoraptor]

26. The Custer Fuck is the perfect example.

Surrender under impossible odds? Never!

Custer lost that battle, but of course the U.S. won that war.

[blm]

16. Don't use Rove's lie - Kerry and Murtha's plans are NOT cut and run.

.

[Philosoraptor]

27. They're hijacking our language.

I'm trying in my clumsy way to counteract it.

[MADem]

17. He who fights, and runs away

Lives to fight another day.


It's not only not cowardly, it's sensible. We either prioritize force protection, or we toss cannon fodder into the mess. And given the cost per soldier for training and equipping, protection of our assets is the smart and most cost-effective thing to do.

[aikoaiko]

18. The problem is we're winning the battles, but do not know how to win war.

[Dhalgren]

28. I'm not even sure we are winning the battles - just look at what

has been going on in Baghdad, today. Operation "Forward Together" is in a shambles.

[BringEmOn]

33. Is beating up a 1st grader, who's done nothing to you, and taking his

lunch money "winning?"

[NI4NI]

29. What would any 'Lican politician know about "cut & run

having never fought in a war to find out for themselves?

[lonestarnot]

31. Cut and run my ass. More like reasoned throwing in the towel when you've

realized you've been lied into a war for profit for the bastards who made the war on a lie.

[teryang]

32. Cost benefit analysis - sunk costs are no costs

What benefits are we getting for the continued expenditure of lives and treasure?

Budget deficit
Balance of payments deficit
20,000 casualties
accelerated depreciation and wastage of military capital assets
inability to respond to national security crisis elsewhere
We have created conditions for terrorism to prosper
We have empowered Iran beyond their wildest dreams
Increased cost of energy world wide
Ruined our influence and reputation around the world
Accelerated flight of capital to overseas
Eroded value of dollar

Opportunity costs
Expended .5 Trillion dollars of national resources, funds diverted from infrastructure, education, health, emergency relief, and business investment.

Benefit
None, except enriching the shareholders of Halliburton, Bechtel, SAIC, Titan, etc.

Bottom line: Massive strategic blunder

[KansDem]

38. Particularly so when the battle was based on a lie...

As Michael Caine said to Sean Connery in The Man Who Would Be King, after their con game was discovered...

THE JIG IS UP...!!!

Bush and his henchman need to acknowledge that their "jig is up" and exit Iraq immediately.

[tlsmith1963]

41. Especially Since...

...the war happened because of lies, anyway. Why keep throwing money at something that didn't need to happen in the first place? It's stupid, & it's wrecking our economy. I'm not throwing my future away for a lie.

Tammy