Democratic co-worker agrees with Bush on gay marriage

[B Calm]

We're both straight guys and politically we agree on just about everything, all except the gay marriage issue. He has a problem with gays being happily married. I've explained to him that it was just another republican wedge issue to get the working man to vote against his own best interest.

What other things would you say to him to convince him?

[REP]

1. Why Does He Care?

Really - what possible difference could it make if two guys or two gals marry? Marriage isn't for having babies - if it were, we wouldn't let the sterile, the infertile or the elderly marry. It doesn't force churches to marry gay people, anymore that it forces Catholic churches to perform Jewish weddings. It wouldn't force me to marry anyone, so ... what's his problem with it?

[The_Warmth]

2. Remind him that marriage has evolved around love.

Not a man and a woman.

[Charlie Brown]

3. He supports CHANGING THE CONSTITUTION over gay marriage?

or does he simply oppose gay marriage?

If he supports the former (Bush's view), I think you should ask him why our Bill of Rights should be watered down yet again, in a way that excludes freedom. I still do not understand why any sane person, let alone 49 Senators, would support messing with the Constitution over this issue.

If he simply opposes gay marriage (the view of most Democrats), I think you should appeal to him as a conservative and ask why the government should control who does and doesn't get a marriage license. Remind him that interracial marriages were illegal in most of the country until forty years ago.

[sandnsea]

4. I've got too many problems of my own

to worry about what's going on in the house down the street. I need to see a doctor, make sure SS is there if I get hurt or old, etc. etc. Most people agree when it's put in terms of impact on their lives, which is none.

[cynatnite]

5. Does he think he'll turn gay...

if two men or two women marry each other? Does he think his marriage will be trouble?

Does he think that two men marrying will be the downfall of the U.S.?

I would also ask who in the hell does he think he is to deny a group of people their basic rights?

[pnwmom]

6. Ask him if he thinks it's better if gays and lesbians

marry straight people . . . as in Brokeback Mountain.

Because that's what most of them used to do, if they wanted families. Many still do. The pressure to conform is still strong.

Would he want his daughter to marry a gay man? Or an "ex-gay" man? No? Then who should? Someone else's daughter?

Or does he really think that gay people shouldn't be allowed to form permanent unions of any sort? That they shouldn't be able to marry straight people OR each other?

Does he really think it's fair to deny the chance of a committed love to gays and lesbians?

[gator_in_Ontario]

7. I am married

legally in Canada. Here not so legal, but still married. Doesn't impact my neighbors in the least. Mail still comes. Roads get paved. Hurricanes hit, I hold the plywood while they nail. What is so scary? I don't get it.
It has to be the "ick" factor...and if that is it, keep your eyes off my bedroom and outta my house. Keep your eyes on the really scary things...In Bush's case that might be the mirror.

[Syrinx]

8. I think gay activists should shoot for "domestic partnerships" for now

"Gay marriage" is a political loser right now, everywhere, or just about.

Domestic partnerships would carry the same weight regarding the important stuff, ie. legal rights.

Forcing the issue would not be wise, in my opinion. Take the substance, and forget about slogans and labels.

We have much more important issues than if we call it "marriage" or "domestic partnerships." And gay people will get their full rights more quickly too.

[William769]

9. Are you speaking as a straight person, or a Gay person?

If you don't mind my asking.

[pnwmom]

18. As a member of a "gay family"

(my father being gay), IMHO I don't think the word "marriage" is worth fighting for, as opposed to the legal rights themselves. I think a more incremental approach might have actually yielded quicker results, by causing less of a backlash. First step, more and more states with civil unions (with rights equivalent to marriages). Second step, the federal govt. recognizing the civil unions. By the time that happened today's young people would be in charge anyway and few people would object to calling it marriage.

We'll never know, but I'm one of the people who is afraid that the timing of the Massachusetts marriage decision, by riling up the right wing base, did affect the 2004 election and might have pushed Bush over the top. So what appeared to be a victory actually slowed everything down.

[Syrinx]

24. thanks

I knew my post wouldn't be popular around here, but I'm trying to think of the big picture. An incremental approach seems to be the wisest course to me. We've got to get some liberal judges on the bench. To do that, we have to get some Democrats elected to office. And that's not going to happen as long as we're pushing something that a vast majority of Americans strongly disapprove of. And it's just a word, for goodness sake. If I could have my right to privacy back, I wouldn't care if it was called a ham sandwich.

[Syrinx]

21. straight

But that's not really relevant.

I agree with post #18.

[Warren Stupidity]

16. Black people shouldn't have asked for full equality either.

It was very divisive. A good case can be made that a direct consequence of the success of the civil rights movement was Nixon/Ford/Reagan/Bush -> leading to the theofascist coup and takeover of the federal government. On the other hand IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

[Syrinx]

23. I don't think it's an apt comparison

I'm fully in favor of equal rights for gay people. I just think we should insist on those rights, and quit worrying about a word. If we do that, I think our goal will be accomplished in a more timely fashion.

[U4ikLefty]

26. Seperate but equal? Yeah, that really worked last time.

:sarcasm:

[Syrinx]

27. are you about platitudes or results? n/t

[U4ikLefty]

28. Do you still beat you wife?

[TomClash]

10. That's a very hard question to answer

until you figure out why he has a problem with gays being happily married.

[Minnesota Libra]

11. The first issue to be covered is why you feel the need to...........

....convince him of anything. Have you considered the fact that the guy might be a "Born Again Christian" Democrat?? Yes, there are indeed Democratic Christians. If he is indeed a Christian then maybe the whole gay marriage thing goes completely against everything he personally believes. In which case you'll have to work on the whole Christian thing first. Good luck!! :toast:

On the other hand, he may not be a Christian at all, but rather he just might not agree with gay marriage. In which case it might be a good idea to find out why he objects first and then go from there.

One thing to keep in mind during the whole process of trying to convince him you're right and he's wrong is not all Democrats/Liberals agree on every issue. We don't walk lock step like the neocons are expected to do, we actually think for ourselves. Imagine that!! I know, I'm trying to keep this somewhat light hearted and I hope you don't mind even though these issues we might disagree on are indeed serious. I too have one issue - not gay marriage because I don't care either way - where I always disagree with Democrats/Liberals on. Most everyone at DU knows what that issue is because I'm probably on their ignore list.:rofl:

Hope some of this helps.:hug:

[AlohaTexan06]

12. All sorts of great arguments

I think the most convincing points have already been brought up, (ie its a civil rights issue analogous to inter-racial marriage). Here are a few other ancillary arguments.

1'st, Republicans demonized "the promiscuous lifestyle of gays" as a public health concern in the 80's. Now they are fighting to keep gays out of monogamous familial relationships. Ask him if he thinks society will be better off if gay people formed stable loving families or if they all remain swinging singles (BTW, I obviously dont believe all gay people are promiscuous but this line of argument is effective in getting homophobes on board with gay marriage)

2'nd, Its only a matter of time before gays are given equality under the law. I'm 25 and I'm proud to tell you my generation isn't threatened at all by homosexuals. This generation gap is evidenced by all the polling data and I've noticed it among even the most moderate of my peers. Once we take society's reigns this debate will be an embarrassing relic of the past. He might as well get used to it now.

3'rd, There is no way that it will detriment "traditional" heterosexual marriage. Straight people aren't going to run out and marry members of the same sex just because its suddenly legal. If anything is a "threat to traditional marriage" its divorce. If marriage is something in need of protection we should repeal all divorce laws.

Finally, I must say that I kind of agree with Sprynx. The battle over terminology isn't doing the left or gays and lesbians any favors. Strategically, we should promote civil unions. Whats important is not what the state calls the relationship but equal rights under the law. If gay couples get the same marital rights as their straight counterparts via civil unions then the marriage battle is 98% over and stupid republicans loose the "we must defend marriage" wedge issue. If gay couples want to hold themselves out to society as a "married couple" rather then a "civil union couple" all they have to do is go to one of the many enlightened churches that will marry them. They would then have all the rights and could refer to their relationship as a marriage. At which point all liberals can do a happy dance.

Now I know it might be uncool of me, a straight dude, to endorse the civil unions approach instead of the full on massachusetts-style state marriage approach. However I'm willing to practice what I preach and would have no problem entering into a civil union with a future Mrs. Aloha Texan (assuming they aren't limited to same sex couples) and then "getting married" at some new age hippy church.

[pnwmom]

29. Welcome to DU, AlohaTexas06. And thanks for a well-thought out post

with which I happen to agree.

Republicans can't have it both ways -- decrying promiscuity and banning committment.

It's only a matter of time -- I know this because my kids and their friends all feel as you do.

But an incremental approach might be the fastest. Get the rights first -- then deal with the word "marriage." In a few years, your generation will have taken over and no one will care.

[rox63]

13. You can tell him that

same-sex marriage has been legal in Massachusetts for over two years, and the sky has not fallen. Straight people still get married every day here. And we have one of the lowest divorce rates in the country. Most straight people here have finally realized that is has made absolutely no difference in their lives.

[Kansas Wyatt]

14. Who gives a shit about gay marriage being the most important issue

What in the Hell has BushCo & Republicans, Inc. done for you, me, and 98% of America lately, that doesn't involve and result in a boom for the Wealthy Elite and Corporate America?

That is the bottom line, and BushCo & Republicans, Inc. have transformed the Government into an oppressive racket for the Wealthy Elite and Corporate America to enslave and exploit the remaining 98% of Americans.

[Warren Stupidity]

15. Does he understand that his church will not have to marry any gays?

I really don't get the opposition here, other than simple bigotry. He is not going to be forced to marry anyone of the same sex, his church can continue to not allow such marriages, the only difference is that same sex couples can get a marriage license to legalize their status. Why is it any of his business?

[nolies32fouettes]

17. If he still votes Democrat then take it easy. Time itself often

brings enlightment.

[KingFlorez]

19. It makes no sense

Why people get caught up in this. I once read a post from a Freeper who opposed gay marriage and went on to say he doesn't even hug his father and brothers, because they are men, as if all hugging is sexual. I honestly think some of these people have problems within themselves they can't deal with.

[pooja]

20. lets face it... most people aren't comfortable because

it is a relatively new area. There have always been homosexuals and heterosexuals. Its only been really visual within the last few years. And it is becoming less of an issue. They are our neighbors and friends that we know and that we say are great people. Responsible, tax paying, borrow that power tool, neighbors.... And then gay pride parade comes to town... and people take the defensive. They say if you are normal every-day joe's, why are you celebrating being gay. You don't see me parading my wife down main street.

The other problem is that once they see these parades... and camera people just love the shot of the dog collar attached to the partner with blue hair and whips.... they think (these people should be in charge of raising children) which then gets them thinking (all gays are pedophiles) I have to remind my husband that when I change my son's diaper, I am not sexually turned on. The bedroom does not define you as a person; its just the place you share a loving experience with another person.

I happen to listen to people, not just shout above them. And I'm not saying there shouldn't be parades if that is what one wants... its a free country...but even I think whips and chains belong behind closed doors unless it halloween and its part of a costume.

[kevinbgoode]

22. I'd ask him if he would ask the gays if they approve of who he'll

fall in love with and choose to marry. . .and then I'd ask him if he really thinks that only heterosexuals should be entitled to cut-rate discounts for individual life experiences, like health decisions, hospital visitation, property disbursal and funeral/burial arrangements. If he says that gays and single people can draw up their own legal papers, then remind him that, if we do believe in equality under the law, heterosexuals can do the same too - and many of those marriage statutes can be scrapped completely. After all, does he really believe that people should marry simply to get a state discount?

[Darkhawk32]

25. I get the most traction with this argument...

"Why not let gays marry? I think they have every right to be just as miserable as we are."

Humor aside. That WORKS! I've made the most right-wing of people change their mind with that funny one liner.

[yewberry]

30. Adult daughter of a lesbian family here:

One of the problems with this discussion is that it is argued in the abstract. Conservatives love to claim that it is best for children to have a mom and a dad in the home.

Well, darned if that isn't a lovely idea, but it completely fails to address the issue at hand. Lots and lots of children don't have a mom and a dad, and legislation isn't going to change that. Denying marriage rights takes rights away from real, live families and real, live kids.

The message that is being sent is that we don't matter and we're not worthy of the same rights as other families. And that sucks.