Why is Clinton publically siding with Bush over Kerry and Murtha?

[blm]

Kerry and Murtha are finally getting some headway in congress with a vote on Kerry's amendment, and Clinton comes out publically and FRAMED their plan the way BushInc and his mediawhores do - he said we can't leave tomorrow - a focking straw man straight from BushInc.

Kerry and Murtha have never said pull out immediately - they say plan to pull out responsibly and set dates certain to begin some pullout so the Iraqi people are shown good faith for a focking change. And Kerry says Put forth a SERIOUS summit of all the regional leaders and the leaders of the insurgency and keep them convened till they come up with a reasonable working plan to unite on areas they can enough to enable more of our troops to exit in a timely way.

Yet, there is Clinton, treating withdrawal plans as if they are cut and run or "leaving tomorrow" just the way BushInc has been framing it against Kerry and Murtha.


LBN thread on Clinton's remarks

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2336851

[lonestarnot]

1. put up or shut up. Link please.

[blm]

2. that's kinda rude....

especially since this subject has already been in LBN.

[lonestarnot]

6. I'm saying if you are going to bash a real president in stating that he's

siding with the enemy, I want evidence, not just your word on the subject. Clinton ruined a dress, bushitler continues to ruin the nation!

[blm]

9. It's in LBN - and it's no surprise about Clinton siding AGAIN with Bush

on Iraq.

[lonestarnot]

10. Bullshit on this bullshit I say BULLSHIT!

[blm]

12. Why are you upset? Clinton has protected Bush many times on Iraq, and it's

been discussed hundreds of times here over the last few years. Why on earth are you getting angry about it being discussed again because of his latest statement?

Clinton is a big boy - he knows EXACTLY what he's doing when he makes comments like this right before an amendment for withdrawal is being pushed by Dems for support.

I'm curious why you object to anyone pointing it out?

[lonestarnot]

14. Because you have provided not one damn link to original allegations in

your op.

[blm]

17. I added the LBN link immediately. And the point is that you reacted as if

it was an unfounded charge when Clinton has been supportive of Bush on Iraq since before the war, and has hardly altered his position publically, so why would you be shocked to the point of attacking me now for discussing his latest statement which has been posted around here already today, and is in LBN now?

[lonestarnot]

19. Still have not seen link. I will go back to OP and read now.

[lonestarnot]

22. See post 21 Peace

[madfloridian]

30. I agree with you totally on this one.

That gathering with Florida Democrats cost $200 to attend. There were no cheaper seats. We would have had to drive too far, pay $400 for the two of us, and find ourselves wondering why he is such good buds with Dad Bush now.

[lonestarnot]

23. Not siding.

[burythehatchet]

42. I admire your restraint blm..

[Old and In the Way]

3. I think Clinton is compromised.

Given the Inquisition that these people put him through for 8 years and what they've put us through the next 6, I really don't know why CLinton is "making nice" with the people that who collectively hate him.

Maybe it is some wierd political calculus in positioning Hillary for 2008, but maybe it is closer to good old fashioned blackmail on some other incriminating issues...

[KittyWampus]

4. Clinton's compromised due to politcal ambition via Hillary

sounds plausible and I've lost patience with the Clintons.

[CoffeeCat]

8. I completely agree with you...

...that SOMETHING has gone on behind-the-scenes with the Clintons.

Maybe the Reps unearthed some real dirty on Bill and/or Hillary during their investigations.

BushCo is clearly the WORST administration EVER, and their policies are diametrically opposed to the policies that Bill Clinton had when he first gained the presidency. The real Bill Clinton would have stood up and spoken up vociferously against this criminal, disgusting, unAmerican administration. What Junior is doing DAILY is unconstitutional and sick. The Clintons know this.

So why--does Bill get in bed with Bush Sr to help hurricane victims? Why is he pairing up with the most corrupt, evil family in this nation's history? Something has happened. I don't know what it is...but whatever it is--has caused the Clinton's to turn a blind eye to Fascism.

These dynamics--and the unanswered questions--are why I adamantly oppose a Hillary candidacy. Either you are against anti-American Fascist, evil thugs--or you're not. You don't dine with them. You don't sometimes publicly agree with them. You speak out and you express outrage and you visibly galvanize American against them! You don't fund raise with them on CNN!

[Jersey Devil]

29. Yep. He owes Hillary bigtime for many things

Though I love the guy, he's past his prime and still triangulating.

[IndyOp]

5. Um. Folks. Clinton is compromised because of a few 100K dead Iraqis...

Real Shock & Awe: After 15 Years War, Sanctions 1,000,000 Iraqis Dead
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/IndyOp/4

In 15 Years (1991-2006), the US has caused/contributed to 1,000,000 Iraqi deaths

Persian Gulf War: 150,000
Gulf War Aftermath: Many thousands
UN Sanctions: Primary cause of 600,000 deaths
Iraq War: 250,000

UN (US/UK) SANCTIONS: Primary cause of 600,000 deaths
August 1990 - March 2003

The United Nations Security Council has maintained comprehensive economic sanctions on Iraq since August 6, 1990. The international community increasingly views the sanctions as illegitimate and punitive, because of well-documented humanitarian suffering in Iraq and widespread doubts about the sanctions’ effectiveness and their legal basis under international humanitarian and human rights law. (2)

It is now clear that comprehensive economic sanctions in Iraq have hurt large numbers of innocent civilians not only by limiting the availability of food and medicines, but also by disrupting the whole economy, impoverishing Iraqi citizens and depriving them of essential income, and reducing the national capacity of water treatment, electrical systems and other infrastructure critical for health and life. People in Iraq have died in large numbers. The extent of death, suffering and hardship may have been greater than during the armed hostilities, especially for civilians, as we shall see in more detail below. Comprehensive sanctions in Iraq, then, are not benign, non-violent or ethical. (2)

A UN "Oil-for-Food Programme," started in late 1997, offered some relief to Iraqis, but the humanitarian crisis continued. (1)

Over a period of about five years, serving an Iraqi population of 23 million, the program has delivered roughly $200 worth of goods per capita per year, including oil spare parts and other goods not directly consumed by the population. Allowing for domestic production outside the Oil-for-Food program and for smuggling, the result still appears to leave Iraqi citizens an exceedingly low per capita income which may be at or below the $1 per day World Bank threshold of absolute poverty. (2)

The measurement of deaths rests on the concept of “excess” mortality – those deaths that exceed the mortality rate in the previous, pre-sanctions period or that exceed a projection of the earlier trend towards further gains. (2)

All of these excess deaths should not be ascribed to sanctions. Some may be due to a variety of other causes. But all major studies make it clear that sanctions have been the primary cause, because of the sanctions’ impact on food, medical care, water, and other health-related factors. (2)

Prof. Richard Garfield of Columbia University carried out a separate and well-regarded study of excess mortality in Iraq. Garfield considered the same age group and the same time period as the UNICEF study. He minimized reliance on official Iraqi statistics by using many different statistical sources, including independent surveys in Iraq and inferences from comparative public health data from other countries. Garfield concluded that there had been a minimum of 100,000 excess deaths and that the more likely number was 227,000. He compared this estimate to a maximum estimate of 66,663 civilian and military deaths during the Gulf War. Garfield now thinks the most probable number of deaths of under-five children from August 1991 to June 2002 would be about 400,000. (2)

There are no reliable estimates of the total number of excess deaths in Iraq beyond the under-five population. Even with conservative assumptions, though, the total of all excess deaths must be far above 400,000. (2)

In the face of such powerful evidence, the US and UK governments have sometimes practiced bold denial. Brian Wilson, Minister of State at the UK Foreign Office told a BBC interviewer on February 26, 2001 “There is no evidence that sanctions are hurting the Iraqi people.” When denial has proved impossible, officials have occasionally fallen back on astonishingly callous affirmations. In a famous interview with Madeleine Albright, then US representative at the United Nations, Leslie Stahl of the television show 60 Minutes said: “We have heard that half a million children have died . . . is the price worth it? Albright replied, “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price – we think the price is worth it.” (2)

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/IndyOp/4

[robinlynne]

7. That is just plain WRONG, whatever the reason.

shame on you Bill Clinton.

[otokogi]

11. DLC'ers are all onboard with the PROJECT for a NEW AMERICAN CENTURY

don't ya know :shrug:

[Dhalgren]

13. I think it is because Bill knows what the rest of us won't admit:

The Democratic Party is determined to be the "other party" in a fascist government. If both parties embrace the concepts of modern, American Fascism, there is no reason why they can't share power. That is what the DLC has been saying for several years now. "Ruling from the middle" is code for accepting the American Fascist Empire as the way the US is and will be from now on. What Bill is saying (and Hillary, too) is, "The old America is dead. We are not that country anymore. So we have to be realistic and accept that we are now a militaristic, fascist country and try to get our share." This is what "centrist" means...

[lonestarnot]

15. You know, what fuck that! I'm fight'n for my freedom.

And I don't ever plan to surrender!

[Dhalgren]

16. Good for you!

We all have to agree with you on that and then act!

[lonestarnot]

18. I don't think there is a DUer on the board who would disagree with that.

[otokogi]

20. he and the DLC are enablers... $ell outs, just like the neoCONs.

he can take his Machiavellian wisdom and shove it... the people have been fighting the good fight for millennium and we have only been getting stronger.

he is on the wrong side of history as we stumble, foward... they will go to far and lose, again.

third way my ass, this story is as old as time.

[lonestarnot]

21. Murtha didn't say pull out tomorrow.

Bill didn't side with anyone, he's his own decider. And P.S. sorry I didn't check the OP often and faster for the link. Peace.

[blm]

24. Speaking up about this right before congress takes up the amendment?

Clinton knows exactly what he's doing, and too many Democrats fear making any move that Clinton advises against. Clinton is the one who commands the microphones he gets all access to if he wants.

[lonestarnot]

25. Clinton did not side with bushitler in the link you posted.

[sandnsea]

31. Clinton didn't completely ignore the workers, BUT

He left a lot to be desired as far as representing Democratic values goes. It wasn't all his fault, lots of people were on board the DLC train in the 90's. Most of have moved away from those third way policies, like Dean, Gore and Kerry. But both Clintons are still right there and his framing of the Kerry Amendment as "can't leave tomorrow" is classic. No politician has said up and leave in a moment's notice, it's a lie on its face and only helps Bush frame Democrats who want to end the war as "cut and run".

[lonestarnot]

32. What Kerry Amendment. Pull out tomorrow?

I would like for us to pull out tonight.

[sandnsea]

33. Clinton wouldn't

So why are you defending him? I don't know what you're talking about.

[lonestarnot]

34. He didn't say stay the fucking course. I know what he said. He is not

a bushitler.

[blm]

44. He FRAMED the withdrawal plan the same way Bush's people do. That's SIDING

with Bush whether you realize it or not. And it also means MISCHARACTERIZING the actual plans.

Why pretend Clinton said this completely oblivious to the amendment vote?

[lonestarnot]

28. he said

"But we need to stay there long enough for the politics to get worked out," he said. "If we withdrew tomorrow, that government couldn't survive." That could be day after tomorrow.

[wisteria]

26. Clinton is trying to regain full control of the Party. Kerry is a threat

to their ambitions and connections. Think DLC. David Gergen just recommended Clinton for the job of spokesperson for our party on Iraq- sighting his speech yesterday and his strength an popularity when taking on Rove.Seems to Gergen, that no one is strong enough except Clinton. Usually, I respect Gergen's judgment, but tonight it wes obvious he was promoting Clinton. When asked about Dean, Gergen said that Dean was not the right person for the job. Dean was good with the left, but not with the middle and with some others that didn't care for him. I don't know how others feel about Clinton, but I think Clinton did some real damage to the party. We lost the house on his watch and barely held onto the Senate.We continued to lose in the South and by the end of his second term, we all took the brunt of his morality charges. I think Clinton has had his time. He needs to allow others to take over.

[wisteria]

27. Then there is Biden. He is spewing the same misconceptions.

Yeah, Biden said Kerry's troop withdraw was not a plan, characterizing
it as just leaving without a plan. Why don't Reid and others talk with Kerry? Reid's comments are the same comments he has been making for months. This is all bullsh*t. They are not willing to face the facts and are waiting until after the elections to do anything at all.I am particularly angry at Biden, saying we have to leave something better. Well we have, we have left them with a democracy for better or for worse. Kerry's amendment specifies working with the Iraqi's to strengthen their new country in many ways, this is not leaving them high and dry. I am so sick of this party. I am not going to give another cent until I see real progress. Kerry and Murtha will get my donations.

[JI7]

35. the timing for his words certainly are interesting

and a few weeks, months from now, he will come out about how we need to speak out or whatever.

[ProSense]

36. When are all the people against the war going to start opposing the war?

Americans are a catalyst for violence and the Iraqis want us out. Iraq is in the middle of a civil war. Get out now and save a several thousand lives. Those who are proposing a longer term seem to think a magic bullet is going to force democracy in Iraq. The responsible thing to do is withdraw (the catalyst for anti-American violence) and begin the diplomatic process. It's that simply. No excuses for continuing a war base on a lie. More lives need be sacrificed for Bush's grave error in judgment.

[Skidmore]

37. He's shooting down anyone who could threaten Hillary in an 08 run.

Plain and simple. They will kneecap the party to get her into position, even though I don't believe she is electable.

[JNelson6563]

38. Anything for Hillary

Not to mention his adoptive parents, Poppy and Babs. ;-)

[leftchick]

39. I believe you know the answer to that already

Clinton and the DLC are nothing more than repukes in Dem clothing. They are Corporate whores who serve their corporate masters and that includes the Military Industrial Complex. They are all compromised and real Democrats should ingnore them and choose candidates who represent us, The people.

[Hubert Flottz]

40. Clinton never did learn to pull out soon enough...

the proof was in the pudding on the blue dress!

Clinton did more for the GOP/neocons than anyone else I can think of!

Clinton is a freakin', candy assed CHICKENHAWK too...

I just hope Fitz finds out that Karl gave someone a BJ too.

[undeterred]

41. The question is Why are you surprised?

[burythehatchet]

43. My feeling is that there is a war going on for the Democratic

party. Its the DLC V. progressives. The DLC is organized and funded. The rest of us have numbers. And here's the really critical issue - the DLC would rather have power in the party and see Republicans win, than see themselves lose control.

[blm]

45. I heard some years back that the showdown is between the Clinton Dems and

the Kennedy Dems for the soul of the party.