Inside Apple's iPod factories

[Placebo]

Apple's iPods are made by mainly female workers who earn as little as £27 per month, according to a report in the Mail on Sunday yesterday. The report, 'iPod City', isn't available online. It offers photographs taken from inside the factories that make Apple music players, situated in China and owned by Foxconn.

The Mail visited some of these factories and spoke with staff there. It reports that Foxconn's Longhua plant houses 200,000 workers, remarking: "This iPod City has a population bigger than Newcastle's."

The report claims Longhua's workers live in dormitories that house 100 people, and that visitors from the outside world are not permitted. Workers toil for 15-hours a day to make the iconic music player, the report claims. They earn £27 per month. The report reveals that the iPod nano is made in a five-storey factory (E3) that is secured by police officers.

Another factory in Suzhou, Shanghai, makes iPod shuffles. The workers are housed outside the plant, and earn £54 per month - but they must pay for their accommodation and food, "which takes up half their salaries", the report observes.

More...

[BrklynLiberal]

1. NOT good news!!!!

[Roland99]

2. Made in China but more expensive to buy them there than here!

At least the prices on the video and Nano when I was in Shanghai in Dec. '05 were higher than available in the US.

[alfredo]

3. We will have to pressure Apple to make changes

in their conditions. We need to know if they are being paid the prevailing wage or above and that they are not being abused. The hours worked is excessive and should be adjusted.

[Deja Q]

149. Foxconn makes the actual product. Apple must pressure them.

Sic Al Gore on them. He's on Apple's board.

(sorry to namedrop, but can you even picture Steve Jobs doing this? Hell, he wants to fight environmental responsibility, so what won't he stand up for?

[Gidney N Cloyd]

4. But at least we can have every song in the world hanging from our belts.

[Nutmegger]

5. Even a good thing isn't a good thing

I haven't bought one yet because the damn things are so much $$$. This story doesn't increase the "coolness factor" either.

[benburch]

7. But you cannot find an MP3 player that isn't made under similar or worse

conditions.

Thats the simple fact. No consumer electronics are made in the USA any more.

[Nutmegger]

8. No argument there.

It's just so sad. :(

[B3Nut]

150. Not mass-market, anyway.

There are quite a few high-end audio companies, but a lot of it is a cottage industry. The gear is spectacular, most of it handmade, but you'll pay through the nose. I'd love an Audio Research tube power amplifier from Minnesota...

Todd in Beerbratistan

[suziedemocrat]

55. Don't bother - I had to return mine (and the replacement!)

I've wanted an iPod FOREVER - and FINALLY bought one a few months ago. I got a 30GB video. The hard drive failed loading songs. They replaced it and that one died too. I tried all kinds of "tricks" I found on the internet to fix it but I couldn't get it to work. Apple DID give me a full refund. Now I'm buying a SanDisk - hope it works.

[heliarc]

91. I found this out...

when I bought my last Powerbook... It was drop-shipped from China! It had a return shipping label in China. That was a year and a half ago. Wow.

How can businesses keep a "buy american" model up? The Repugs and lobbyists have removed all of the perks to keeping jobs in country. Frankly, I don't know what the nationalism is all about anyway. But the argument to buy american is just trumped by the real argument for the internationalism of the capitalist model. Capitalism demands a free market, because it needs to grow and push laterally. It goes to show how business has sabotaged our government. They want a free market and the American worker will suffer for it. We will find ourselves more and more alike with the workers of the world as things move forward.

[benburch]

6. I'd pay extra...

...to have their salaries doubled!

[tridim]

17. What's Apple's profit margin on the iPod?

I'd bet it's shockingly high, like over 50%.

[MazeRat7]

23. Only large ticket items have that kind of margin....

On a consumer good like the iPod... I would be impressed if their bottom-line margin was over 10%. More than likely its in the 5-9% range.

MZr7

[tridim]

27. Ouch! Looks like my guess was right..

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1283

Apparently it's about 40-50%. That's unbelievable IMO.

[MazeRat7]

30. Wow.. I'm truly impressed. Haven't seen that in a long time. (n/t)

[tridim]

33. You're impressed that Apple has a 50% profit margin using slave labor?

Why can't the cut their fucking profit margin by 10% and pay Americans to manufacture the iPod?

This is just sickening.

[MazeRat7]

36. No I'm impressed they have that kind of margin on a consumer good.

But you are right, they could assemble them in the states and still make a profit. Unfortunately, they could not make the "most" profit.... after all that is the point of a corporation.

MZr7

[Broken_Hero]

94. margin on consumer goods...

Is a bit more than you realize...my wife use to work for WM, in their accounting annex in Bentonville...she would tell me all sorts of mark ups that walmart puts on their items...especially in Toys/clothes/electronics...it was enough to make me literally sick...we are talking in some cases, mark ups over 100% of cost....and it amazes me, that even when WM marks these items up, in some cases, they are still cheaper, than other stores...

[MazeRat7]

101. Bottom line margin is different from COGS (Cost of goods sold)....

I am talking about bottom line margin for the original manufacturer. Not markup of a 3rd party. Beyond material costs, there are labor, marketing, and overhead costs. That was my point relative to "margins" and I suspect the link reference was about "top line" costs, not "bottom line" margins.... but I have no data to dispute the claim.

But I suspect the difference is not only lost in this venue... but on the author of the article as well...*sigh.

MZr7

[benburch]

54. Because then they would need to invest in a factory.

They buy iPods from a contract manufacturer.

[Lorien]

107. I do work for various companies that produce consumer goods overseas

typically a item costing $10 has been produced for around .43, which is one hell of a markup. However, the real costs generally come in the form of advertising and CEO paychecks.

[benburch]

53. But the factory is a CONTRACTOR.

None of those people are direct Apple employees. So, Apple's profit on the iPod does not enter into that.

Contractors bid on jobs like this. However, Apple COULD make a minimum wage a condition of any contract when it is bid upon. And we should work on them to do just that.

[stepnw1f]

65. There You Go Again with Those Facts

Can't you see the trolls are having fun picking apart a Blue Company....


geez... right on cue too. Good on you Ben.

[IsIt1984Yet]

70. As a liberal, I care more about corporate RESPONSIBILITY than which

politician's pockets are lined.

If a company is not environmentally or morally responsible, the cash they give to a Democratic candidate doesn't mean jack-shit. Apple is CLEARLY not the only company taking advantage of these people, but guess what - that's the topic of this thread. If disagreeing with Apple's actions makes one a "troll"... go ahead and alert the mods.

[stepnw1f]

72. Remember That Next Time You Buy Another Computer

or anything else for that matter. And spare me the goodey good good talk. I don't think you really give a damn.

[benburch]

77. He'd rather buy from Dell...

...and funnel that money straight into the GOP.

And use a Microsoft OS, who pays a small fortune to Ralph Reed.

And the same women in the same sweatshop will make that machine too.

[stepnw1f]

82. Ironic... isn't it

the preacher is a PC user. LOL....

[benburch]

85. Microsoft owes some huge debts to the Far Right

Which pulled the teeth from the anti-trust judgement against them.

[stepnw1f]

87. Did Not Know That

It figures... I thought that decision was odd. Just didn't know why.

And these people claim to follow Jesus. LOL...

[Nomad559]

111. Apple owes a huge debt to Microsoft

150 Million Investment

Macworld Boston 1997-The Microsoft Deal
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=233x3348

:)

[MazeRat7]

93. How about buying Dell to support American employees ?

Considering the top officers of the company only gave to the "max personal limit"... buying from Dell is supporting workers in Texas, Tennessee, Idaho, Nevada, Oklahoma, and several other states. Not to mention that in my town, Austin, Dell is a major champion of the food bank, humane society, gay rights, and many other "blue" causes.

If you want to "Buy Blue"... you need to look at what a company does locally, not at where the top officers place their political contributions.

MZr7

[benburch]

95. Apple has thousands of American Employees.

And does not support Fascists.

[MazeRat7]

100. I'm not sure I follow.

Certainly you are not intimating that the $1000 and $5000 personal contributions from several executives of a company are an indication that the "entire" corporate policy (and the 40,000+ workers) toward the community at large is "fascists" ? In the specific case of Dell, your drive by is just not factual. Besides, I have one real advantage in this argument and because of that advantage I can factually state you are spewing rhetoric. Not fact. ;)



MZr7

[benburch]

104. Until that upper management is replaced...

...I'll not buy a Dell.

Clearly lower-level employees are not making the policy of the company. The management suite does that.

[MazeRat7]

108. But... but...but.... don't actions speak louder than words ?

They are the largest employer in Central Texas to offer "Domestic Partner" benefits (complete with Gay Pride week for all their employees), they donated the "largest" tonnage of food to the Capitol Area Food bank in the history of the organization, they contributed "FREE" computers to the Red Cross for Katrina, they have established numerous community centers in the area, they are one of the largest supporters of United Way, and actively support several local humane societies (via contributions)....just to name the biggies....

These are decisions endorsed by Michael and Kevin... not the underlings....

Like I said, look at what a company does in the community...

MZr7

[IsIt1984Yet]

110. THAT is what makes me INSANE

Throw around the word "troll" when one disagrees with the corporate responsibility of a "blue" company. And condem to hell the actions like the ones you've outlined - and like the Gates Foundation. That is utter bullshit. Why the FUCK does it have to be about which exec threw which candidate a fucking bone once 6 years ago!??! I am FAR more concerned with the things you mentioned. THAT is impressive!

Oooo... wait, Apple donated a whopping $78 THOUSAND to Democratic candidates - guess what? EEEVIL MS donated $495,742 to Democrats!!

FUCK the idea that Gates donated 750 MILLION to a worldwide infant vaccination program. And... SEVEN BILLION to the Foundation as a whole.

[MazeRat7]

118. I have only one thing to say...

"To thine own self be true"

Stick buy your guns on this issue or any other you have formulated a position on... and if someone calls you a "troll" ignore them, they are fools (or worse ignorant). Worst case... you get "tomestoned" from a "message board"... gezzzz.... oh I shake in fear. :sarcasm:

MZr7

[benburch]

113. Political donations ARE actions.

And Apple endorses Domestic Partner benefits too.

Given a choice between Dell and Apple, I choose Apple each and every time as long as Dell supports the GOP Fascists.

[MazeRat7]

116. Would it kill you to throw them a bone and say... Hey thats a good thing?

I mean really Ben... would it be so bad as to say "Hey.. I didn't know that"...maybe I'll look into this a bit more ?

Just because the "officers" made "personal" (non-corporate) donations to the GOP... is it right for you to stand against all the working folk in that company that actually execute the programs I listed?

Are you that jaded and close minded that you can not distinguish corporate policy as it relates to the community from the personal beliefs of those that run the corporation ?

Maybe this is a tech thing. But in my 20+ years of working for tech companies... the company policy has always been labor and community friendly independent of the officers "political" bent.

And that is my point. You cant judge a corporation by the personal contributions of the officers... you must judge a corporation on how it interacts with the community at large. In this case... I think they are doing a fine job and I will continue to support them via purchases of their products.

MZr7

[IsIt1984Yet]

120. Gateway gives more $$ to Dems than Apple. Is that your ONLY metric?

Seriously?

[benburch]

122. I buy cow boxes.

When I need to buy a new Linux machine for a client.

And not my ONLY metric. But an important one.

[NewJeffCT]

117. They can do a lot more than give the "max personal limit"

There are ways around that. I worked for a large corporation before (fortune 100, but not quite as big as Dell)... the CEO of the company would send out a letter to all mid-level & higher managers that said something like, "Your CEO (Bob) would like to remind you that we feel Republicans best represent our interests in Congress, so please give to Republican candidates for Congress and we will send in one donation from the corporation. Please check YES or NO on this donation sheet and return the form directly to Bob so he can personally coordinate this important donation."

Now, it's not exactly worded like that, but I'm honestly not too far off... but, this is how people become Bush Rangers or Pioneers by donating $100,000 or more.

[politicat]

134. Apple's tech support is US based. Software is US. Hardware design is US

Dell's tech support is Indian. Software is mostly outsourced because they don't really develop software anymore. Hardware... decentralized.

And the Dell plants in China pay worse... according to the several sources, the contractors Dell uses in China pay about 20 pounds a month (after deductions for housing and food), from which workers have to repay employment agency fees. (Washington Post, Hong Kong Christian Industrial Workers Union, International Herald Tribune.)

They all suck on american made. There are very few consumer goods made in the US.

[IsIt1984Yet]

99. SHE. No, SHE assembles her own PCs. With recycled parts.

Dense as she may be, she's handy and thrifty like that.

[MazeRat7]

103. Tee hee..... the assumptions some make is amazing....

As for "handy" and "thrifty"... many could benefit from the same principles. Provided they take their head out of their rhetoric long enough to see a bigger picture.

MZr7

[IsIt1984Yet]

79. And... know what? I don't give a damn if you THINK I give a damn.

[stepnw1f]

80. good for you

bye

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[benburch]

71. Facts don't seem to matter to some DUers.

Sometimes we live up to the worst stereotypes the freepers spread about us.

[stepnw1f]

74. True Enough

So Ben... This is just a contractor? I will write Apple, and tell them I am not pleased. Hopefuly, they'll be a bit more careful.

[benburch]

81. That is my understanding.

Apple makes almost nothing directly any more. They contract the entire manufacture out to overseas firms. In fairness, until we have a government that will erect protective tariffs to equalize American wages with those abroad, they could not stay in business otherwise as their competition would eat them alive on price.

[stepnw1f]

84. You are right about That

So much to do... shaking head.

[DerBeppo]

115. wasn't that walmart's excuse

when confronted with hiring illegal aliens?

[mike_c]

9. this is the general story of low cost consumer goods in America....

They're made abroad by people working in Dickinsonian conditions. America's corporate foreign policy has only one primary aim: to keep the flow of resources and now manufactured goods running steadily toward American and (increasingly) other developed nation consumers. What Americans are going to learn rather rudely is that although they've been the beneficiary of this policy for over a century, the real corporate loyalties lie with whomever provides the most lucrative market. This has been the U.S. for many years, but the decline of U.S. manufacturing, combined with the growth of developing nation economies, will steadily erode that buying power. We're not only losing the jobs-- we're beginning to lose affordable access to the consumer goods they once supported. The result is the "Walmartization" of the American market.

[alcibiades_mystery]

128. Best misfire all day: Dickinsonian conditions

:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:


ONE of the ones that Midas touched,
Who failed to touch us all,
Was that confiding prodigal,
The blissful oriole.

So drunk, he disavows it 5
With badinage divine;
So dazzling, we mistake him
For an alighting mine.

A pleader, a dissembler,
An epicure, a thief,— 10
Betimes an oratorio,
An ecstasy in chief;

The Jesuit of orchards,
He cheats as he enchants
Of an entire attar 15
For his decamping wants.

The splendor of a Burmah,
The meteor of birds,
Departing like a pageant
Of ballads and of bards. 20

I never thought that Jason sought
For any golden fleece;
But then I am a rural man,
With thoughts that make for peace.

But if there were a Jason, 25
Tradition suffer me
Behold his lost emolument
Upon the apple-tree.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

133. "Dickensian". But it's all good, we know what you mean:

[mike_c]

135. LOL-- yep....

:rofl: My bad....

[papau]

10. But WalMart prices will go up if workers get more pay and Walmart will

go to some other slave labor country.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000080&sid=aAdyYc6868rM&refer=asia

"Wal-Mart Stores Inc. says it will be prepared to look elsewhere if it has to, says Beth Keck, director of international corporate affairs at the world's largest retailer, based in Bentonville, Arkansas. Noting that the company already buys a lot of apparel from Central America, she says that ``we are focused on providing our customers the best prices, and this continues.'' "




Chinese labor gets an average of $1.36 per hour - 4% of the US rate - but it is up 72% from 2001. Five Chinese provinces and municipalities (including Shanghai and Guangdong province, and the heavily industrialized area around the Pearl River Delta), which generated 55 percent of the nation's exports last year, plan to raise minimum-wage standards this year.

[maxsolomon]

11. this is why i have high end audiophile components

they're handamde in europe & the US.

that, and i'm a soulless yuppie snob.

[tridim]

18. Does your amp have exposed tubes?

and do you spend more than $100/foot for speaker wire?

Some super high-end audiophiles are completely nuts. No offense. :)

[maxsolomon]

26. no, i'm 'entry level'

and most of it is way old & came with my SO after her divorce - levinson amp & preamp, denon turntable, snell speakers, linn CD player. no way i could afford to indulge myself like that. i'm all about content anyway.

when we were choosing the CD player, i listened to a pair of $100,000 speakers. THAT was excessive.

but feel free to denigrate me as a soulless yuppie, i'm getting used to it around here.

[Divine Discontent]

145. Soulless Yuppie! lol....... that felt fun.. thanks for the chuckle! N/T

[Elwood P Dowd]

31. Tubes sound better

and high quality copper or silver cables DO make a difference. I've been buying audio components for 40 years. I don't buy tubes and expensive cables for my health or for snob appeal. I can hear the fucking difference, and it's often dramatic. People like you who don't know a damn thing about the hobby are the ones who are nuts.

[tridim]

35. I've had this conversation with audiophiles before

and quickly learned that it's pointless. It's like discussing computer operating systems.

My post was just a joke BTW.. and I do think tube amps sound much better. :)

[immoderate]

59. If you can hear the difference in cables...

Say, monster cable vs. standard heavy guage copper wire, you might be eleigible for the Randi million dollar prize. It's mostly for supernatural stuff, but Randi debunks audio products too. You could inquire. I'd love to know how you made out.

--IMM

[Elwood P Dowd]

89. Another unqualified person talking about something they don't know

a damn thing about.

When you reach a certain level of equipment, there can be some dramatic differences heard in cables. Inexperienced and unqualified people like you probably can't hear the difference on their cheap Circuit City rack system.

[immoderate]

140. Maybe some people make some stupid assumptions.

I don't have my Crown systems anymore and live with my lowly Carver amps. But I'm through listening to the electronics and listen more to the music.

The question is can you hear the difference in a double blind test? I'm also aware of some effects of psychology and the ability of people to convince themselves of what ain't so. Is it worth a million to go through the test?

--IMM

[Elwood P Dowd]

144. Yes, I've been through the ultimate double blind test

I thought I was doing an A/B between two different speaker crossovers in the same model speaker. A mono signal was fed to each speaker, and I picked out the left speaker every, single time. It had tighter bass, more midrange body, and a more coherent and smoother top end. When it was over, I was shown what was really being compared - 14 gauge zip cord hooked up to the right speaker and some expensive Fulton cable hooked up to the left speaker. I will never forget that - it was 25 years ago. I also briefly borrowed the David Salz switch box a few years ago to compare interconnects. Rather than fast A/B switching, I started with simple mono signals, listened as long as I wanted, and later worked my way up to more complex stuff.

Most standard double blind listening tests are totally useless. You're in unfamiliar listening rooms with unfamiliar equipment playing unfamiliar music. You're switching back and a forth and asking your brain to make quick decisions without ever getting into a normal, relaxed music listening mood. Most listeners can pick out gross differences under these circumstances, but they have trouble with the subtle ones. Long-term evaluations in the comfort of your own home with your own system and your own music can often yield different results. I can't tell you how many times over the past 35-40 years I've borrowed a component or cable just to try at home for the weekend. More times than not, I would keep what I currently owned.

I call bullshit on your "I'm also aware of some effects of psychology and the ability of people to convince themselves of what ain't so" statement.
This applies to a certain percentage of audiophiles but not to the majority of audiophiles. Most that I know are quite conservative when it comes to changing cable makes and models. They're not going to buy the latest-greatest unless it makes a dramatic improvement in their system. In fact, many of them make their own cables. They also don't buy exotic cables for status appeal.

Crown? I wouldn't lose any sleep about not owning Crown anymore. The Crown stuff I bought in the 70's was dreadful sounding. Made the mistake of buying it without an evaluation. Kept it a few weeks and then sold it for a huge loss. Well made stuff for commercial installations, but not very refined sounding in a high end home audio system.

[benburch]

56. Oxygen-free single crystal wire makes no measurable change...

...to the sound produced. Period.

[Elwood P Dowd]

92. Listening to complex musical waveforms

on a properly installed high end audio system is slightly different than measuring simple waveforms on test equipment. Using your logic, a cheap piano should sound no different than a professionally tuned Steinway. Measure them with an RTA or distortion analyzer, and the measurements look the same.

[guruoo]

109. But-but my dog swears he can tell the differance - n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

129. still a soulless yuppie?

weren't you supposed to be working on that?

:-)

[IsIt1984Yet]

12. BBbbbbut... Apple is Bluuuuue!!

:sarcasm:

[Placebo]

13. Well they are!

And Steve Jobs is a former hippie.

[IsIt1984Yet]

14. Blue or not, I don't want to support that kind of inhumanity.

[MazeRat7]

24. Then don't buy their products. Thats the best statement you can make.

[IsIt1984Yet]

29. Haven't and don't

:thumbsup:

[MazeRat7]

32. Good for you!!!!

Being a techie, its always hard to go against the grain... but bottom line. We dont' need most of the crap they are selling to us.

MZr7

[IsIt1984Yet]

34. I read your post downthread, too. You're absolutely right.

I, too, am a techie... but a poor one. Well, not "poor" by any stretch of the imagination, just not one with a great deal of disposable income to spend on that "cool" stuff. You're right, we don't "need" that stuff. :thumbsup:

[Placebo]

43. What kind of computer do you own?

I bet it's MADE IN CHINA.

[jayfish]

48. Not A Fair Challenge.

No one is under the illusion that PC parts are made in Merica by true-blue, lib friendly corporations.

Jay

[IsIt1984Yet]

58. It's home-built, but probably does have a lot of part from China.

But, I do try to reuse and recycle... the machine itself has been around since 1998. I am, by NO means claiming to be guilt-free. But, when I hear of specific companies guilty of such atrocities, I will avoid them. Though, that's not tough to do with Apple for me.

[stepnw1f]

63. yup...anyways (nt)

[femrap]

75. I bought an iBook because it was manufactured in

Taiwan...but that was a few years ago. Dell was made in China. I buy nothing made in China unless that is the only place that product is made (ie fireplace lighters).

Is there a product similar to the ipod that in NOT made in China?

[MazeRat7]

90. Your wrong on one point....

Dell products are generally assembled in the country of destination. So if you live in China, your product is assembled in China, if you live in the US your product is assembled in the US....etc.

MZr7

[femrap]

123. I ordered a Dell laptop back in

2003...it arrived and had 'made in china' on the box. I sent it back. At the time, Apple had iBooks make in Taiwan...a democracy...if there's such a thing anymore.

[MazeRat7]

125. Dell does not make US laptops in China...

The chassis may have been assembled in Malaysia and shipped to the US for final assembly and boxing. This has been true since 2000... so perhaps your "box" was made in China... but not your laptop. It was assembled here in the states.

MZr7

edit: prior to 2000 all laptops were assmebled in the US.

[femrap]

146. NO it wasn't.

What are you a lobbyist for Dell?

I phoned Dell...they confirmed the laptop was made in China. They offered me a camera to keep it. I refused. They came and picked it up.

It was 'assmebled' in china.

That's so funny....if the box that the product comes in says 'Made in China,' you think they're talking about the box? Not the product inside? lol.

[MazeRat7]

88. I own several of the MazeRat Custom Next Generation servers....

In other words, I assembled the product myself using components that were sub-assembled elsewhere and I run then on open source (eg free) software. It's a dumb question that misses the whole point of using contract assembler's to advance corporate profits... but hey, I fell for it an gave an honest answer... which I am sure is going to be a problem.

MZr7

[Maven]

49. Good, then buy some more Microsoft products, and pay Ralph Reed's salary.

[IsIt1984Yet]

62. And maybe a few bucks will go to the Gates Foundation, too.

[Maven]

69. Or perhaps it'll go toward strongarming another fledgling company

out of business. One that employed American workers, even.

It amazes me that many libs can support a tyrannical megalith like MS that used brute force and monopoly power to push its mediocre product into dominance and not see the irony there. If ever there were a corporation more akin to the GOP in its strategy...

P.S. Where, exactly, do you think the XBOX is manufactured? Of course, I'm SURE that Microsoft, with their history of ethical business practices, is enforcing a responsible wage policy at their factories in the Far East, profit margin be damned! :rofl:

[IsIt1984Yet]

76. Prolly China. I don't know for sure cuz I don't have one.

I am HARDLY saying Apple is the only guilty company. HARDLY. FAR from it. I choose not to buy all the latest gadgets and cool things. My PC is 8.5 years old and has been "upgraded" by virtue of hand-me-downs and recycled items. Look, I am NOT the MS cheerleader you've taken me for, they have PLENTY of ethical issues - but I do have respect for the Gates Foundation. If that makes me evil or less of a liberal in your eyes, so be it. My om still loves me.

[ecstatic]

41. LMFAO NT

[faithnotgreed]

15. i buy used items

though im not exactly a heavy consumer
my mom tells me i need to get into the 21st century (for the most part i say no thanks)

its awful to tout yourself as a democratic forward thinking company and then engage in this activity
i realize its standard procedure but apple has so much clout i cant imagine they couldnt really whip up consumer enthusiasm (even further) with news that at least a certain segment of their product line was made in the actual us (aka not the mariana islands) and not exploiting people in other countries to make their high dollar/high profit items

[Betsy Ross]

16. Look at the label before you buy.

Although it is difficult to find products made in the US, you can avoid products made in China. It requires a lot more shopping around, and sometimes more money. Working conditions suck in many countries besides China, but China has strong political motives and interest in controlling the American economy. You might also find that you can live without Chinese made products.

[jody]

19. How many hours needed to manufacture an iPod? Probably only 1 or 2.

The parts are made on automated machines. The biggest gain to manufacturers from outsourcing are minimal safety and environmental laws and little responsibility for the health and benefits of labor.

I call that economic bondage aka slavery.

[sproutster]

20. agreed. :( Pretty f'ing sad you have to lock in the workers.

[nolabels]

28. Manufacturing is sophisticated enough to make a comfortable life.........

for most people on the planet. The greed comes from the owners and managers and you can see it at both large and small scale. It's not the problem with the machines but the greed of people. Instead of just being satisfied with an innovative machine that eliminates the need of three worker that in turn just changes it to one who justs keep an eye on the machine.

The greedy bastards are busy trying to figure out ways to employ the most poorly educated worker to work for the lowest pay they could find in what ever country that will help them set it up to operate said machine. I have watched it small scale and have gotten good accounts of how they TRY to do it from my brother when they do it large scale. It's just greed pure and simple.

[jody]

37. Sure it's greed but most products we use benefit from highly automated

manufacturing processes that keep costs low and quality high as long as demand is high enough to justify investment in capital-intensive factories.

[nolabels]

57. That's just it, they lose money in the deal

Japan and it's growing base of manufacturing subsets did not get the ever larger foothold because of innovation, they did it by refining the manufacturing process. They must have greedy people over there on that side of the world too to be sure, but just not STUPID greedy people. My brother, the machinist, operates davenports and Acme screw machines that make parts on a automated basis. He does some actual physical labor once in while but mostly the machines do all the work. Two of the companies he worked for sent their factories overseas. One to Mexico and one to China, each time they had to come back to the USA because prohibitive cost and downtime in delivery and manufacturing. My brother makes good money doing it at about 100k yr but you can almost bet them companies hate paying them kind of wages

[Gregorian]

51. Not even that.

Machines manufacture the chips. Stamping presses make some metal parts. Most of it is automatic manufacturing. The final assembly stages that are done by humans might take several minutes. I used to own an electronics company with my dad. We hired almost exclusively Vietnamese. And we paid them really well. Huge pension plan. They loved us. I still had a hard time watching them work so hard on assembling components into the devices. However, almost all of them ended up being able to buy houses. Pretty good stuff. Although the stories they told made me cry. They would mostly rather be back in Vietnam.

[MazeRat7]

112. Wrong... A std computer is assembled and tested in about 15 mins.

An ipod should be in the same range. The attraction of overseas contract labor to any company two fold:

1) Cost of labor
2) Cost of tax

there is very little automation (at home or abroad) relative to the final assembly process. To get a rough idea, look at the number of iPods sold last quarter and divide it into the total number of work hours for quarter. Assuming of course that have a 0 unit backlog. (they wish)

MZr7

[jody]

126. If labor is about 15 min, how can cost of labor be an attraction? n/t

[MazeRat7]

131. Are you serious ?

just in case: If your cost of labor/hr is cheaper in say Eastern Europe, how is the time of assembly an issue ? Its not... because you get the same volume of product produced at a reduced labor cost. Move the assembly to say Asia, and the assembly time per unit will remain about the same... however the labor cost will vary. Thats the whole point in moving assembly operations overseas...1) reduced labor costs and 2) more attractive tax requirements.

MZr7

[sweetheart]

21. how do you say "i owe my soul to the company store."...

in chinese.

[MazeRat7]

22. Foxconn, Quanta, Compal, etc. These companies have existed for some time.

This is not unique to Apple or iPods. These "assembly" plants exist around the world. (Eastern Europe, Asia, South America, etc). In a given plant you can see many of the "major tech" brands being assembled in different buildings. I know this because I have toured most of these factories operated by the major "assembler's".

Bottom line, this is a global market and companies will move their assembly operations to the places that give them two primary advantages:

1) Cost of labor
2) Cost of tax

The best thing you can do to change this trend is to consume less. Don't buy crap you don't need. And believe me, an iPod is top of the list of things people "Do not" need. I just saw an interview by George Soros in CNBC and one of the points he made was "we americans consume too much". At the end of the day, you don't need a "Razor", an "iPod", a PDA, or the latest gadget. Want is a different thing. If people would make a move back to the basic technologies and leave the "sizzle" alone, there would be a lot less justification for companies to utilize these types of "assembly" plants since these plants are only profitable to a company if they have the volume of sales to support them.

MZr7

[Odin2005]

25. Gee, where are the Apple sycophants now?

[Touchdown]

47. They never existed.

"Ka-thunk!"

[donco6]

61. Chirp Chirp Chirp . . .

still waiting.

[Touchdown]

136. See number #47.

Apple bashers shouldn't make shit up.

[Atman]

66. Was anyone in doubt where iPods are made?

Mine came with a sticker right on the bottom of the box, with the barcode. "Assembled in China." This is the first time I heard of the location of their manufacture made an issue. I don't know of anyone who bought an iPod because they assumed it was green. I mean, what are the alternatives?

Face it, America...America itself is made in China, anymore.

[Raine]

38. I actually found a Nano

when I was out walking my dog one evening about a week ago. I live near a busy street that is a couple blocks from a high school and I find all kinds of stuff that people have dropped. I have to get a port for it and some instructions then I'm going to put it to use. :-)

[Book Lover]

98. Your good fortune is another's misfortune

You might want to think about checking with the school office to see if the kid that lost their Nano wants it back.

[Raine]

124. I feel bad...

I already tried that but have not heard from anyone. I considered putting up a lost and found sign but am afraid of getting lots of weirdos coming round cause I live just off a highway. I asked my neighbor (who knows about Ipods) if there was identification on it like you would find on a cell phone but he didn't think so. I don't take this lightly and feel bad when I see it sitting there and know that someone else is feeling the loss. I want to figure out how to use it so it doesn't just end up in a drawyer collecting dust.

Edit: Spelling

[ContraBass Black]

130. The owner's name might be stored in it.

Ask somebody who owns one how to check.

[high density]

39. Wow, Foxconn makes iPods?

They also make the most lowest-end motherboards available.

[Atman]

60. They build to spec

They don't care what it they're building. They simply follow the design/engineering specs.

[Divine Discontent]

40. well THAT'S depressing

apple should be the leader in bringing jobs back home, but they're too falling prey to the corporate climate of stock profits...


apple is poised to go up several bucks a share in the next few weeks, and that's all I think they really care about as a "company"... maybe Jobs will change things.

[ecstatic]

42. iShops?! This is sad

I want to jump on Apple's case but I know so many other companies are doing the same damn thing. Weren't American companies able to survive before the sweatshops became the in thing?

[Swamp Rat]

44. What MP3 player is NOT made in overseas sweatshops?

What about the parts in the computers we are using right now? What about the parts in goods labeled "Made in the USA?"

[Deja Q]

46. Maybe Americans need to entertain each other; save the money?

Convince everyone else to do it and I'll ditch my equipment.

Until then, I'm a loner with my portable music because that keeps me happy.

[Swamp Rat]

64. Absolutely!

I spent the weekend playing samba with my band at our Summer BBQ ... well, I ate boiled crawfish and shrimp. :9

No electronic equipment - just handmade instruments made in Brazil or by us, using recycled materials. I am constantly inventing new methods for using used and broken things to make percussion instruments and beaters.

"Convince everyone else to do it and I'll ditch my equipment." - Why not ditch your equipment now? Go buy a used guitar or make a drum out of a trash can. Don't wait for me to convince the world because I am not up to that task. I can only change the minds of those within earshot. And believe me, we can make 'two-left-footers' dance (something that resembles samba) when we play live in the French Quarter... or ANYWHERE we play! :D

Info on making homemade instruments:
http://www.rhythmweb.com/homemade/
http://www.drumjournal.com/junk.html
http://www.drummm.com/workshops.htm
http://www.junkyardsymphony.com/studyguide.html
http://www.windworld.com/links.htm
http://www.storytimesongs.com/instruments.html

[Maven]

52. How about the undergarments everyone on this thread is wearing right now?

[Swamp Rat]

67. I'm not wearing undergarments

...OOPS! :blush:

[Maven]

68. LOL

That's...precious.

[Deja Q]

45. www.badapple.biz has a lot re: Apple's lack of environmentalism too.

:(

They may be "blue", but they're making us all rot-brown and puking.

[Maven]

50. ??

Apple has a program in place to recycle iPods and old laptops you trade in. They even give you a discount on iPods as an incentive to recycle your old hardware. What PC company does that?

[MyNameGoesHere]

78. Oh my!

Not Apple!! Not from a company that is worshipped here. Oh dear. What will the children say? Seems like the other day so many were saying how dispicable that other company is.

[benburch]

83. From a company that CONTRACTS with Apple.

There is a huge difference.

[Deja Q]

97. So Apple doesn't care who it signs contracts with?

:shrug:

[guruoo]

114. You mean Apple stockholders don't care, as they

are the ones who ultimately call the shots

[MyNameGoesHere]

102. Yeah

I see what your saying, companies shouldn't be responsible for their sub contractors.

[sproutster]

106. Not really -- It's proprietary hw/sw - Apple is not blind, nor innocent

[Book Lover]

96. People, people. This is a *Daily Mail* report

They are more right wing than ... well, fill in the blank as you please there. They have an agenda, and it is not to help blue companies like Apple look good.

[zulchzulu]

105. I bet 90% of what you are wearing right now is from Asia or South America

Check your labels.

Your computer has probably 95% of the parts made in the same conditions as an iPod. The same with your TV..

Not that I'm a fan of the process, but it would be cool to do a total assessment of what you use everyday as well as what you're wearing and see how "international" your needs are...

[w4rma]

119. Until the whole industry is changed, no company can compete without doing

this. <period>

I don't know of one single solitary manufacturing company anymore that isn't doing this.

This is what "free trade" really looks like. What is needed is "fair trade".

[NewJeffCT]

121. That's about $50/month. While not great...

You can live on $600/year in China. Granted, you're not going to live in a penthouse in Shanghai, but I bet it's not too different than somebody in the US making minimum wage.

That said, Apple should put language in their contracts that require workers in factories that make their products to work 8 hour days.

And, don't most factories & larger businesses in the US have their own security? So, are they security by mercenary security contractors?

[HannibalBarca]

127. Yes I saw this story and to be honest...

..had to laugh, not at the slave labourers but at all those who sing Apple's praises aloud from the rooftops and condemn Microsoft and Dell to the deepest levels of hell. Apple, like any other big corporation, are out to make a profit, if possible a big one and as evidenced have no compunction about how that goal is achieved.

[politicat]

132. I'm actually going to question those numbers.

I'm researching China right now for the company I work for, and I just finished Shanghai. 27 pounds (which is also half of 54 pounds, and equals $44.91 as of today's exchange rates or 371 yuan) won't support a person for a week, much less a month. A basic apartment in an old building with roommates that is acceptable to Shanghainese starts at about 1000 yuan a month, and food for a week on budget prices runs about 150 yuan a week. Self-catering is about the same, since noodle carts and bao carts are not very expensive. Longhua is a suburb of Shanghai. Suzhou is another suburb, but in a different province. If the factories are providing food and shelter, then obviously expenses go way down.

Women get kidnapped in China every day. The country has 130 men for every 100 women. Western women are usually safe because they stand out, but Han women don't. Women do get kidnapped and basically held for marriage ransom -- if parents want their child to live, they'll pay and the woman gets married against her will. Rape is highly common and goes unprosecuted; men who claim to be affianced to a woman who has accused him of rape gets off, and since her parents will bear the shame if she is raped, her parents will often go against their daughter and side with the rapist. Guards can and probably are as much for the workers' protection as to keep them in.

Per capita income in most of China runs about 7500 yuan per year (545 pounds; about $75 a month); it runs about 20,000 a year in Suzhou and 42,000 in Shanghai. A Guandong janitor earns 150,000 yuan a year (a huge salary). If he's got a wife and child and parents, that's about 20,000 per capita.

Here's the thing - why aren't the workers rebelling and striking? China supposedly has a strong labor policy that ensures workers a minimum wage, maternity leave and a 9 hour work day with mandated breaks. Why isn't the government doing their job? I'm not excusing Apple, but the numbers don't add up and the Chinese tend to be pretty tough on these issues.

[NuttyFluffers]

137. *yawn* i'm not an idiot that expects 100% purity in everything...

the world is filled with various shades of grey, *gasp* shocking news! so this is apple's grey... and pretty much an unavoidable one in the current state of affairs. oh god no! my false idol has shattered, whatever shall i do? oh, i know! i'll go and switch my support to the most evil one i can find because of my disillusionment, for all is lost and there's nothing to do but succumb and embrace.
:eyes:
... or i could deal with the facts of the current situation, act like an adult, and make a reasoned choice to support those who i believe will bring about enough change to the current environment so we can tackle deeply embedded problems, such as this "free trade/sweatshop labor" one. gee, what a concept. to flounder like a fool or buck up like an adult; decisions, decisions...

(fyi, i really don't care, or want to hear, any OS, PC flame war in response to my post. i really couldn't give a toss what decision you came to. all i ask is that someone, and i shall quote for the dense among us: "make a reasoned choice to support those {they} believe will bring about enough change to the current environment so we can tackle deeply embedded problems." if you can live with your choice and reasonably defend it with facts then it's alright by me. but to collapse your spine and forfeit your power of decision over expectations of all-or-nothing purity? utterly contemptible and worthy of derision in my eyes. i'd like to think we're not children anymore.)

[roguevalley]

138. I'm glad I don't own one.

[slybacon9]

139. Why do you hate america? and our troops?

they are over there fighting for your freedom to buy ipods cheap and you are spekaing out against them?

you are helping the terrorists win.

I'm boycotting you.

[alfredo]

141. More from Wired.com

http://www.wired.com/news/columns/0,71138-0.html?tw=wn_index_3

[Downtown Hound]

142. Hmm...interesting.

It seems to me like there may be something to these charges although it's not yet proven. Although sadly, this is simply American capitalism in the new millennium. Pretty much every company that ships their manufacturing over to China is doing so because of their low wages and lax rules. And that includes just about every American technology company there is.

[alfredo]

143. Then American Capitalism needs to be changed.

[phrenzy]

147. Please Name A Tech Company That DOESN'T Do This

before you mac haters start jumping up and down - who in the hell ever said they buy apple because it's "made in the USA"?

Apple products are superior because of their design, east of use and quality. NOT because of where they are assembled! WTF - Like anybody expects ANY electronics to be assembled in the US anymore?

[Deja Q]

148. I just appreciate the awareness of where/who/how things are made.

Especially from Apple; who is seen as a (second rate) god by many.

Apple is no different than any other company. Blue or red, the color quickly washes off to reveal dark green.