Have you changed your mind about the Duke rape case

[pnwmom]

since the story first came to light in March and April?

[cboy4]

1. Do you know if your final poll results will be broadcast on my favorite

show in the whole wide world (MSNBC's Throaty Rita)? :hi:

[rock]

4. No, I never had a mind to begin with

[pnwmom]

7. I'm sorry to hear that, rock. Maybe you better look for one.

;)

[pnwmom]

6. Somehow I doubt it.

[cboy4]

9. You're right. No blond female victims involved in this case,

(as far as I know), so I doubt Rita and Greta are too interested.

[LisaL]

10. I guess you have been living under a rock.

[cboy4]

12. I was being sarcastic lizzy

[LisaL]

13. Well, it did not come through.

[pnwmom]

11. Speaking of blondes,

I wonder why they couldn't have eliminated at least some members of the team from suspicion right away -- that is, any blondes or redheads. Since all the I.D.'d players were brunettes. You'd think she would have at least described their hair color. But if she did, why weren't pictures of non-brunettes eliminated from the lineup, along with the black player?

Because in any group of 46 white lacrosse players, it's hard to believe that NONE of them had light hair.

[LisaL]

14. What, and spoil all the fun of pinning the tail on the donkey?

Never.

[pnwmom]

16. You mean, the Dukie?

That seems to be the real game here.

[LisaL]

17. It's a very sick and twisted game, IMO.

[pnwmom]

21. I agree. Nifong should never have started it.

[marshall]

20. Nancy Grace is still on board

Grace had a major segment on the case in her Friday night show. She is a tireless advocate for victim's rights. When and if she changes her mind about the case (she nearly always believes "guilty as charged") Nifong's goose really is cooked.

[rfranklin]

2. Both sides should be jailed for stupidity...

I think the "upstanding young men" and the "virginal dancer" are equally guilty.

[pnwmom]

8. Do you think the punishment for stupidity should be 25 years in prison

(or more)? That's what they're looking at, if convicted.

And hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars in attorney fees -- if the case goes on for another year -- even if they turn out to be innocent of rape?

[TexasProgresive]

3. Whatevah- Did it happen in Aruba. n/t

[LisaL]

5. No, even better-Durham, NC.

[FreakinDJ]

15. federal criminal civil rights violations

I begining to see a pattern here with the DA's office

The types of acts that may involve violations of federal criminal civil rights laws are:
OFFICIAL MISCONDUCT (18 U.S.C. § 241, 18 U.S.C. § 242) -- Intentional acts by law enforcement officials who misuse their positions to unlawfully deprive individuals of constitutional rights, such as the right to be free from unwarranted assaults, illegal arrests and searches, and theft of property.
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/crim/overview.htm

[Tsiyu]

18. i voted no cuz I had no opinion

but I will tell you that I started to lean toward believing the dancer, only because the defense kept shoving their 'evidence' in my face. When a defense team wallows in the media, I get suspicious.

I'll wait for the trial, but if the defense puts out one more piece of 'evidence' I'm going to personally believe those Lacrosse kids are guilty as charged.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadHound]

19. Let the trial go forward

At this point I think it would be best if the trial went forward. Dismissing the charges now would leave a permanent cloud over the alleged assailants. A trial is not only used to prove a person guilty, it is also used to exonerate the suspect if the case doesn't warrant merit.

I've no dog in this fight, I don't presume to know who is or isn't guilty based on media reports. I would just like to see justice proceed and for the case to go to trial. It is the only way to have any sort of justifiable closure in this case.

[pnwmom]

22. If it turns out that this case is as weak as it appears now -- if

Nifong doesn't have any rabbits up his sleeve -- and the conflicting evidence that we already know about provides more than enough "reasonable doubt" for the jury. . . do you think it will have been fair to force the families to pay for a year's worth of attorneys fees (ranging into the millions), and the students to have had a year of worrying about 25 years-and-up prison sentences ? I bet anything those defendants would rather have the whole thing over now, even it meant that there was a cloud still over their heads. They know that a verdict of "not guilty" will never exonerate them in the eyes of some. That's one more reason the prosecutor shouldn't have rushed into obtaining the indictments.

We don't know all the evidence, obviously, but the prosecutor does. And if he takes this case to trial, without DNA evidence, with an extremely suggestive photo lineup (which against the written policy of Durham and the police department contained no "filler" photos), despite statements of the dancers that conflicted internally and with other, despite a SANE report that reported almost no evidence of injury and conflicted with the statements in the search warrant, despite the dancer admitting the next day to having been drunk . . . he better have some awfully convincing evidence.

[MadHound]

23. No, we don't know the full extent of the evidence

Nor will we know the full extent of the prosecutor's case until it goes to trial. That is why trying this case using media sources is foolish, because neither they, nor us, can know the full extent of what is going on.

That is why, especially at this point, the case should go on to trial. And if it turns out that the prosecutor had nothing or next to nothing, then the defendents can go after the prosecutor in civil court for malicious prosecution, and recoup their monies in that fashion.

All that is going to straighten this out, for once and for all, is a trial. And if I were one of the defendents, I would indeed be wanting a trial at this point. After having my name drug through the mud, especially if I weren't guilty, then I would most certainly be wanting that "not guilty" verdict on my record. Anytyhing else leaves to many issues open to doubt.

[pnwmom]

24. To win a case on malicious prosecution, they would have to prove

actual malice, which is extremely difficult to do. How do you go about proving someone else's state of mind?

[pnwmom]

25. FYI, here's Atty. Osborn's website, with a complete set of filings for

his client.

http://www.kirkosborn.com/DukeLacrosseCase.html

[MadHound]

26. No, they wouldn't have to prove malice

If the case is as weak as you and others say it is, then all they would have to show is how unreasonable it was to prosecute these atheletes when they possesed little or no evidence connecting them with a crime. Especially since there was a rigged lineup, etc as the defense keeps saying.

[pnwmom]

28. Even with a weak case, the law makes it extremely difficult

to win a case of malicious prosecution.

http://www.answers.com/topic/malicious-prosecution

Actions for malicious prosecution must compete against the public interest in allowing parties to pursue cases unfettered by the specter of a retaliatory case. Very few civil or criminal cases result in an action for malicious prosecution. This is because it is difficult to prove that the defendant procured or continued the original case without probable cause and with an improper purpose.

Another difficulty for the plaintiff in an action for malicious prosecution is immunity. Generally, the law protects witnesses, police officers, judges, prosecutors, and lawyers from suit for malicious prosecution. Witnesses are given immunity because justice requires that they testify without fear of reprisals. Law enforcement and judicial officers are given immunity because they must be free to perform their duties without continually defending against malicious prosecution cases.

There are exceptions. If a law enforcement or judicial official ventures outside the bounds of official duties to instigate or continue a malicious prosecution, the official may be vulnerable to a malicious prosecution suit. For example, a prosecutor who solicits fabricated testimony to present to a grand jury may be sued for malicious prosecution. The prosecutor would receive only limited immunity in this instance because the solicitation of evidence is an administrative function, not a prosecutorial function (Buckley v. Fitzsimmons, 509 U.S. 259, 113 S. Ct. 2606, 125 L. Ed. 2d 209 <1993>).

[LisaL]

30. Well, when someone accuses you, you can do anything you want.

If evidence was collected improperly, and line ups were unduly suggestive, the defense has all the rights in the world to demand they be thrown out.

[genie_weenie]

27. On some issues here at the DU *truth* does not matter.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13249625/site/newsweek/

[LisaL]

32. I couldn't agree with you more.

I would like to see the opinions here if the accuser was white, the defendants black, but everything else exactly the same.

[astro]

31. don't pay attention to media inspired soap operas...

got way to many other things to think about

[LisaL]

33. Good for you. I am sure you can find something of interest to

you to post about.

[astro]

34. thats why i'm here

to voice my opinion, even on media inspired soap operas ;-)

now for something worth while, check out this protest video...
http://forwhatitsworth.cf.huffingtonpost.com

:hi:

[Jade Fox]

35. Cool....

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[pnwmom]

38. Welcome to DU, astro!

But I would call this a "political election inspired" soap opera, myself. It was the prosecutor who turned this into a media campaign.

[formernaderite]

83. I've turned completely around on this case....

and you're right, Nifong got the ball rolling....and stupidly I assumed that his flinging and tossing of the guiltier than sin tactics, meant he had them cooked. To me it's unlikely that all three are guilty...maybe one of them? I don't know, I do fell badly for the woman, whatever happened she is obviously distraught from all acoounts.

[pnwmom]

91. And the problem for his case is: even if one of them IS guilty,

charging all three (ignoring exculpatory evidence) will just make his case look that much more suspect. He should have waited until he had a strong case against at least one of them before forging ahead.

[Jade Fox]

36. Good....

There are folks here at DU unable to distinguish when they are involved in media soap operas. Welcome!

[pnwmom]

41. At this point, I'm glad the defendants have finally gotten the media's

attention, after the prosecutor so skillfully grabbed it in the first month.

They shouldn't have to go through another year of this though -- no one should, including the accuser. This case should have been put to rest as quickly as possible. And by that I don't mean next year.

[LisaL]

49. In NC, defendants apparently don't have a right to a speedy

trial. So, it can be drugged on and on by Nifong.

[marions ghost]

37. interesting....

OK pwnmom, what do you say about the fact that (at this vote count) while 46 choose to remain neutral, 12 now lean to the accuser, but 29 now lean to the defendants?

Looks like those supporting the defendants are having a harder time remaining neutral, wouldn't you say...or perhaps there are other factors? This doesn't support the theory that more are giving the accuser the benefit of the doubt prior to trial.

[pnwmom]

39. Not that a poll like this means anything really

but it supports the idea that the more people learn about this situation, the more they realize that something stinks.

[marions ghost]

42. or

they could just be susceptible to the pre-trial persuasion fed to the media by the Defense. At any rate, they are not choosing to remain neutral and let the case be decided at trial, as posters were urging at the outset. People do pre-judge, don't they?

What's interesting is that, despite the fact that nobody really knows anything, this poll (which I realize is not scientific) --indicates that the accuser may be at a serious disadvantage going into the trial.

[pnwmom]

43. You've just given a reason for having a speedy trial -- which this

prosecutor isn't interested in having. A speedy trial would have been okay with me. But at this point, I hope there's no trial. I don't think this case, with all the conflicting evidence from the very outset, ever warranted indictments.

[marions ghost]

52. I don't think the prosecutor is stupid

so although I can't see his reasoning, I believe that he has a case that should go to trial.

You neatly sidestepped my point about how your poll illustrates how pre-trial media usually works for the defense if they can mount a media campaign like this group is doing.

At this point the "leaning to the defense" votes are at 39 vs. only 16 leaning to the accuser. (Many of the 39 say they were originally leaning toward the accuser). So obviously the defense has been successful in trying the case in the court of public opinion, which should make you happy (and maybe you can stop obsessing that some travesty of justice is taking place against these poor innocent students).

59 voters remain neutral, awaiting definitive evidence, which is where I choose to be. Nobody knows enough.

[pnwmom]

56. It still is a travesty of justice if Nifong proceeded against the students

not because he had a clear case but because he thought the media attention would help him in his reelection campaign.

You see the poll as illustrating that pre trial media usually works for the defense.
I think that pre trial media only works when there IS a defense. And in this case, it appears to be an extremely strong one, with at least one alibi that should have prevented one defendant from ever even being considered.

You seem to forget about all the pre trial media attention, all the 70 statements, put out by the prosecutor. Soon his statements had drawn Jesse Jackson, the black panthers, and probably millions of others to her side. I don't see why the defense should be accused of trying the case in the court of public opinion, when the prosecutor made this case the cornerstone of his election campaign.

[marions ghost]

58. Like I said

the prosecutor is not stupid. If he has made mistakes then he will pay. I know you keep saying that all Nifong cares about is his re-election campaign, which is a nasty thing to say (got any proof? or even hearsay on that)? I will be watching the case from both angles I assure you.

But you are viewing it from only one angle. Seems you are OK with the defense's case being argued now in a very one-sided way in the media. I guess it's OK that this is done prior to the trial? All I can say, if that's the kind of justice system you want, let's just hope you are never victimized in any way.
I am concerned about the system, as I have seen enough to tell me that it is gravely flawed...and yet so many people rely on it. Until they are a victim that is. And if the defendant is more powerful....well, all bets are off about "justice" being done.

[pnwmom]

61. Remember way back when?

Here's an article dating from the period when I was buying Nifong's line that a rape had definitely occurred and some-student-or-other was definitely guilty. And, furthermore, Nifong was promising to deal with that someone "harshly."

http://www.nbc17.com/news/8300222/detail.html

March 27, 2006

"The information that I have does lead me to conclude that a rape did occur," Nifong said. "I'm making a statement to the Durham community and, as a citizen of Durham, I am making a statement for the Durham community. This is not the kind of activity we condone, and it must be dealt with quickly and harshly."

"Duke students have been demanding that type of statement from university administrators, and they rallied on campus Monday for the third consecutive day.

"This crime affects every Duke student -- male, female, black, white, purple, brown," one student said.

"I am a woman, so I am disgusted. But above that, I am a human being, so I am disgusted," another student said.


It is easy to forget that the Duke campus itself was rallying against the defendants and for the accuser.
Nifong himself was attending rallies for the accuser. For a host of other grandstanding quotes of Nifong, you could check out this site:

http://boards.courttv.com/showthread.php?threadid=265800

[marions ghost]

64. OK well you may not realize

that at the beginning of the case, there was a lot of local reaction. Nifong had to respond to a very charged-up community, with serious institutional and societal implications. Not only is there a strong black community, but also a strong activist community concerned with civil rights and social justice in general. The Duke campus happened to be rallying (scheduled before the case came up) because the issue of violence against women was on the front burner at the time. So the campus was not "rallying for the accuser." That is a misleading statement. The campus was already sensitized to the issues of violence & rape on campus...and then this case came along to further stir the pot. This charged-up climate already existed.

The prosecutor handled this situation fairly well I thought. He was pressed to make statements and such, and of course would not want to be seen as soft on this kind of crime prior to his re-election, or anytime for that matter. The Durham community is very vocal and active and they go after people's hides whether it's election season or not. They don't take kindly to stonewalling by elected officials. Nifong did have a lot of restrictions on what he could say as I understand it. I would have to have more info to be convinced that he had only the crassest of political intentions. He is generally thought to be a successful and fair prosecutor. My observations are based only on what I've been exposed to through media--I have no inside info but I completely understood why Nifong would be pressed to make public statements at the outset in this case.

[BrownOak]

94. Sorry, I just can't buy that

The prosecutor handled this situation fairly well I thought. He was pressed to make statements and such, and of course would not want to be seen as soft on this kind of crime prior to his re-election, or anytime for that matter. The Durham community is very vocal and active and they go after people's hides whether it's election season or not. They don't take kindly to stonewalling by elected officials. Nifong did have a lot of restrictions on what he could say as I understand it. I would have to have more info to be convinced that he had only the crassest of political intentions. He is generally thought to be a successful and fair prosecutor. My observations are based only on what I've been exposed to through media--I have no inside info but I completely understood why Nifong would be pressed to make public statements at the outset in this case.

Sorry, but I can't agree with that. It was totally irresponsible for the DA to go on record as saying he was "confident a rape had occurred" and to label the players a bunch of "hooligans." A chimp with a head wound could figure out that was outside the bounds of reasonable behavior for a DA.

You've pretty much admitted that the public wouldn't accept him stonewalling, so his actions, which have been roundly criticized by other DA's in the state, were done to pander to the public. The shame of it is that his aggressive posture early on in this case could actually be hurting the alleged victim as much as the suspects.

[marshall]

44. Nifong started the media curcus

The defense was very late in getting into the media game. I read somewhere that Nifong gave upwards of 70 interviews and press conferences in the beginning, but when the case started going south (the extent of which was unbeknownst to anybody else until the prosecution was finally forced to release its evidence), then Nifong started being quiet and in fact hasn't given an interview since April. So while it may seem now like the defense is dragging this into the media, it's just where it was brought by the prosecution when it came in handy as a primary vote getter.

[marions ghost]

46. from my perspective

the media vultures were all too happy to spin both sides. The defense is now engaged in making their case before the trial gets to court. Obviously they have been successful as popular opinion seems to be going against the accuser. The more the defense drags this into the media, the more desperate they seem to me.

[LisaL]

48. Defense is filing motions, as they have a full right to do.

WTF would you have them do, not file motions cause for whatever reason, it upsets you?

[marshall]

50. Perspective

People who have only followed the case in the past month or so don't have an accurate perspective. If one didn't know how the case began it would seem like the defense is dragging it into the media while the prosecution is being circumspect. That is definitely not how it began. Nifong was giving one press conference after another and the team was engaged in what seemed like a code of silence as far as public statements were concerned.

[marions ghost]

55. Look

this isn't a game of tit for tat. The defense has it's reasons for continuing to drag the details of the case before the public at this point. But it's a shabby practice IMO no matter who does it. The team's "code of silence" as you call it, was a concerted attempt to provide no information -- not a noble thing by any means. Certainly they were not "taking the high road"...more like taking the low road (which was not surprizing).

All I'm saying is, the defense looks weak to me, trying to continually make it's case through the media before the trial even starts. The media is an accomplice in this pre-trial propagandizing of course. Does not make me very confident in the justice system in general, which is my main concern. I believe that our justice system is in many ways dysfunctional at this point. I will be watching this case critically re. both sides.

[marshall]

62. Actually, it is

a game of tit for tat--the prosecution opens and the defense must respond to whatever is thrown its way. Nifong foisted the details of this case to the media by having one press conference after another. The "code of silence" that I referred to only extended to the media, not law enforcement. The players did not appear in press conferences to discuss the case, but they did cooperate with authorities.

[marions ghost]

69. there can be a thin line

between a 'response' to charges and a campaign to influence the jury pool and sabotage the case before trial. If this is what you call good defense, then OK. If you like how this has been handled and this is the kind of justice system that appeals to you, then by all means, promote it...

(Of course the players would not appear in press conferences. Their lawyers would not allow it. I don't understand why you're putting this out as a plus factor for them).

[pnwmom]

70. But what a lot of us are trying to tell you is that the information that

is coming out is from the defense motions themselves, motions that are public documents for a very good reason. What other kind of justice system appeals to you? A system where the defense can't make motions? A system where all motions are made in secret?

Our court system is supposed to be transparent, for the protection of all of us. This is our only way of exercising some supervision over the justice system.

[marshall]

82. That is so true

One of the big gripes many people have about the Holloway case is that Aruban courts are absolutely closed. Nobody, including the family of the victim, knows what evidence is being gathered, who is suspected or being investigated, etc. We have an open system, for good or for bad.

[marions ghost]

88. I agree that the system should be open

in the sense that filings and evidence should be made public (without media sensationalism). But you run the risk of the legal parties abusing the soapbox and affecting public opinion, influencing the jury pool. If there were only judges (no juries) there would be less chance of doing that.

[marshall]

93. But what is your solution?

How should government go about controlling media sensationalism?

Open records are a two edged sword, and current media and technology only make it moreso. A hundred years ago, in a case like the Lizzie Borden trial, the media was constrained by the technology of the day. In today's world Lizzie would be on television, her friends would be interviewed, etc., and the case would probably be affected. But how do we put the cork back in the bottle.

[Kingshakabobo]

63. Facts are a funny thing.......

...The defense files a motion, the media obtains copies, posts them to the internets and we get to read them. VERBATIM. They include police reports, police notes AND signed witness statements. It's pretty clear FROM THE STATE'S OWN NOTES that this case is shaky.....at best.

IF this case makes it to court, you will see some olympic style back-flipping when the state has to impeach it's own notes. Not to mention suborn perjury by coaching Kim Roberts how to weasel out of her original statement that the "victim" was never out of her sight for more than 5 minutes and how she felt the accusation was "a crock"..........before her bail was reduced, that is.

I think you are confusing defense press conferences(which there have been plenty on both sides) and motions filed.

[LisaL]

66. Exactly. Defense can not be blamed for filing motions.

And if some people here actually read those motions, they would see how ridiculous Nifong's case actually is.

[marions ghost]

71. if you believe that

motions are statements of fact then hokay... any case may appear shaky if you only evaluate the defense's motions. It's still all a matter of what you (the bystander) wants to believe. The trial is where it gets real.

No, I'm not confusing motions with what is said to the press. Like I said before I would have to study the motions as opposed to what was said in press conferences before drawing any conclusions. And even then I wouldn't buy every motion as fact. Motions can be shot down.

But thanks for your response. I will take in what you said and see if your predictions come true. As I said I am following this case as an example of the justice system more than any other aspect of it.

[Kingshakabobo]

74. Please try again.

I'm referring to POLICE NOTES attached to the motions..

How do you read this:

"She heard that (the accuser) was sexually assaulted, which she stated is a 'crock' and she stated that she was with her the whole time until she left," according to Himan's notes. "The only time she was alone was when she would not leave and that time period was less than five minutes."

.........and not think there is something SERIOUSLY wrong with this case????????

That's from the police notes. Not the defense.

[marions ghost]

76. There are a lot of inconsistencies

that come up in trials. This statement (which I believe the second dancer later contradicted didn't she?) will have to stand against other evidence and other statements. The 'second dancer's' credibility is a factor, but so is the testimony of other witnesses about what went on there. The taxi driver's story for the defense is also not consistent. This contradictory stuff happens in these cases.

No, it doesn't make me think there is something seriously wrong with this case.

[Kingshakabobo]

81. I guess we live in a "fair and balanced" society......

.....where(from police notes): "She heard that (the accuser) was sexually assaulted, which she stated is a 'crock' and she stated that she was with her the whole time until she left," according to Himan's notes. "The only time she was alone was when she would not leave and that time period was less than five minutes."


Is kinda maybe the same as...

..... a cab driver mis-remembering the color of a car at 1am...even though the phone log, cell-phone records and ATM records ALL corroborate the story........ there are still "inconsistencies."

Yep, no difference there.

In case you didn't know, the 2nd dancer was offered reduced bail after she was arrested for an outstanding embezzlement charge. Not to mention her lame attempt at profiting from this case AFTER it became a national story.

[marions ghost]

87. obviously

the second dancer doesn't have a lot of credibility nor honesty. But neither does the taxi driver.

It must be hard for lawyers these days to find anyone of any background who is not given to lying at the drop of a hat. Half the time the lawyers have to go along with the lies just to have a hope of winning the case. But is that any surprise really? Look at our leaders and role models....read David Callahan's "The Cheating Culture." Everybody lies even under oath...the pResident lies us into a multi-billion dollar "war." There's not much honesty anywhere that I can see.

It all just comes down to what people believe about a case, & what their personal agenda is.

[Kingshakabobo]

89. Alan Dershowitz did some good work on police perjury......

He calls it testilying. I personally know several policeman that BRAG about it. That, and racial profiling.

http://www.constitution.org/lrev/dershowitz_test_981201.htm

My name is Alan M. Dershowitz and I have been teaching criminal law at Harvard Law School for 35 years. I have also participated in the litigation — especially at the appellate level — of hundreds of federal and state cases, many of them involving perjury and the making of false statements. I have edited a casebook on criminal law and have written 10 books and hundreds of articles dealing with subjects relating to the issues before this committee. It is an honor to have been asked to share my experience and expertise with you all here today.

For nearly a quarter century, I have been teaching, lecturing and writing about the corrosive influences of perjury in our legal system, especially when committed by those whose job it is to enforce the law, and ignored — or even legitimized — by those whose responsibilities it is to check those who enforce the law.

On the basis of my academic and professional experience, I believe that no felony is committed more frequently in this country than the genre of perjury and false statements. Perjury during civil depositions and trials is so endemic that a respected appellate judge once observed that "experienced lawyers say that, in large cities, scarcely a trial occurs in which some witness does not lie." He quoted a wag to the effect that cases often are decided "according to the preponderance of perjury."<1> Filing false tax returns and other documents under pains and penalties of perjury is so rampant that everyone acknowledges that only a tiny fraction of offenders can be prosecuted. Making false statements to a law enforcement official is so commonplace that the Justice Department guidelines provide for prosecution of only some categories of this daily crime. Perjury at criminal trials is so common that whenever a defendant testifies and is found guilty, he has presumptively committed perjury.<2> Police perjury in criminal cases - particularly in the context of searches and other exclusionary rule issues - is so pervasive that the former police chief of San Jose and Kansas City has estimated that "hundreds of thousands of law-enforcement officers commit felony perjury every year testifying about drug arrests" alone.<3>

[marions ghost]

92. thanks for the excellent article

I didn't realize that police perjury was quite that extensive, although I knew that other forms of perjury are rampant. In too many cases it seems to boil down to whose lies are better than whose. That's part of the reason why I take what the pre-trial statements say with a grain of salt.

I'm hoping that law professors like Dershowitz who are willing to critically analyze the justice system will have some effect on a system that IMO is failing too many citizens everyday.

[Kingshakabobo]

96. Tell me again why the cabby is not credible?

Because he got the color of the car wrong? Even though his logs, the phone logs and the ATM receipts all match his story?

Thanks for missing my point.

I'll say it again: The second dancer CLEARLY KNEW nothing had happened and made a definitive statement that it COULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED because the "victim" never left her sight for more than 5 minutes. It wasn't: "I don't know"....her story was "IT COULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED"..... THIS WAS HER STORY UNTIL THE POLICE LEANED ON HER......She STILL doesn't say she knows anything happened...........that's why I posteD the Alan Dershowitz article.

[pnwmom]

95. What do you think is the definition of "reasonable doubt" then?

The 2nd dancer, in her first statement, said that the accusation of a sexual assault was a "crock" and that they were apart for less than 5 minutes.

When the police talked to the accuser in the car, she denied having been assaulted. When she found herself about to be checked into the mental health place, she claimed she had been raped. When she was transferred instead to the hospital, she denied she had been raped. She later told a nurse that she HAD been raped.

The accuser's statement says that no condom was used, yet no DNA was found in her vagina, except for the DNA belonging to her boyfriend.

The SANE report said there was some edema in the vagina but didn't report any of the trauma that would be expected from the brutal thirty minute beating that the search warrant had reported. In addition to the evidence (the DNA) that she had had recent sex with her boyfriend, there was testimony from her driver that she had had sex with him the day before, and that she had had "appointments" with several men in hotel rooms that weekend.

In one of her statements the accuser claimed that the 2nd dancer had helped the students assault her.

On the night of the attack, she told a nurse she had had a drink and her prescription muscle relaxant. The next day she acknowledged that she had consumed two 22 ounce bottles of beer before going to the party.

The accuser told the investigator that that party was her first dancing performance. She had actually been doing it for five years.

The lineup consisted only of photos of lacrosse players, which violated both police dept. and State rules ("filler" photographs are supposed to be included). To make it even more suggestive, the police investigator informed the accuser that all of the pictures they were showing her were of lacrosse players.

At least one of the players has a detailed alibi (receipts and photos) that make it almost impossible that he could have been involved in a rape that night.

To me, it almost doesn't matter what further evidence Nifong could be withholding. You could drive a truck through the hole of reasonable doubt that the two dancers own conflicting statements punched in the case.

[marions ghost]

54. I would have to compare the motions

with the media spin, and be closer to the case than I am. But maybe you base legal judgments on what you read in the papers?

[LisaL]

67. The motions include actual police statements. Maybe

you could read them sometimes.
Then again, maybe not. It's easier to complain not knowing any of the facts.

[marions ghost]

73. well it would be interesting to read those...I'm aware of

the arguments that a couple of them are promoting...but it's still a matter of pre-judging since I can't know how the opposition would answer to any of it. Motions are arguments that present evidence. But motions are also arguments that may distort or slant 'facts.' Police statements can have errors, omissions etc. so I take them as evidence, but they don't tell an irrefutable story either.

When you read the motions so far, did you find any that had arguments that seemed to be especially convincing to you?

[pnwmom]

57. Filing motions isn't a desperate thing to do. It's a smart thing to do.

And motions like this are always public.

The prosecutor was the one who initially decided to stir up all the press attention in this case. I'm sure the students and their families would have much preferred if the initial investigation could have been done quietly, out from the gaze of the vultures of the press. But now it's too late -- it's out there -- and so it's not fair to blame the defense for putting up as strong a defense as they can muster.

[NaturalHigh]

75. I wouldn't say that the defense is desperate.

It seems to me like the defense has all the momentum right now. The silence of the prosecution, after several weeks of posturing for the media, speaks volumes. If public opinion is turning against the accuser, it's because it's looking more and more like she blatantly lied and the prosecution foolishly fell for it.

[marions ghost]

79. that's a really bizarre assumption

that because the defense seems to have "all the (media-driven) momentum" ...it's looking more like she blatantly lied...I don't see how you deduce that.

But we'll see if you're right....

[NaturalHigh]

80. Yes, we'll see.

I suspect you don't see how I can deduce that she lied because you don't want to.

[marions ghost]

84. nope

I don't get how you deduce that "she lied" from the fact that the defense 'seems to have the momentum.' I expect you put that out because you want to believe it.:)

I won't believe ANYthing about the specifics of this case until they are presented at trial. I'm not invested in this case in any way --just interested in understanding the legal aspects. But it seems to me a LOT of people in this thread are seeing this case from one angle only...ie. strongly invested in the accuser's case being discredited. I think that is interesting, but it doesn't offend me particularly. I feel objective about this case. So no need to imply there is undue personal involvement on my part...except that I'm not a fan of the legal system as it currently operates.

[SoCalDem]

40. The Duke case did not interest me much in the beginning or now

It sounded like many a Friday/Saturday night fraternity "happening".. Anywhere there are young guys with money to burn, there will be booze & sex..That combination often results in "things gone badly", and a lot of he-said-she-said.

Colleges thses days apparently do little in the way of monitoring frat houses.. That's where they need to start.. If fraternities are located on campus, everything that happens there becomes a campus-issue. Colleges either need to make sure fraternities are well-chaperoned, or they need to get them completely away from campus, and let the rich guys who live there, fend for themselves when they cross the line..

[Obamarama]

45. I paid as much attention to the Duke brouhaha as I did Natalee Holloway...

Which wasn't much. Maybe 5 minutes?

[LisaL]

47. Do you want a medal for this, or what?

[Obamarama]

51. Uh, no...I'm just highlighting that the Duke case is just sensationalism.

It detracts the media, and the sheeple, from the real news we deserve to know. Who the fuck really cares about the Duke case? It has no bearing on my life whatsoever. It's nothing more than an over-sensationalized news frenzy.

[LisaL]

53. And yet you keep on bumping this thread. What a dilemma.

No one is making you post about something you are not interested in.

[U4ikLefty]

60. You lie!!! He responed to you & he never "bumped" the thread.

Bumping a thread is a single word (bump) or short phrase (ie. "bumping for the late DUers") to push the thread to the top of the page. Posting is not bumping.

[LisaL]

65. Ah, but effect is exactly the same. The thread goes up.

And frankly, if people are not interested in a topic, no one is making them to post and inform others how un-interested in a topic they really are.

[Obamarama]

72. No need to get in a tizzy, lizzy...

Last time I checked, this was a DISCUSSION board. The OP presented a poll about something on which I had an opinion. I expressed my opinion, and for some reason you took issue with it. Why, I don't quite understand, but I guess that's your issue to wrestle with.

[marions ghost]

59. yes it's sensationalized

but how does that impact on the case? What is our justice system really about these days? There are some issues about the Duke case that have bearing on other cases. So it isn't an irrelevant topic. Most people have no idea how little the "rights" they think they have will be protected in the judicial system. The media hype is a definite problem and worthy of discussion, not grounds for dismissal.

[Yollam]

68. None of the above.

I don't know any of the details about this local criminal matter, nor do I care to.

There is not national interest. As always, I hope the guilty are punished, and the truth comes to light, but that's for a local judge and jury to decide. It has zero effect on my life or the life of anyone unconnected to the case. News outlets covering this are abdicating their duty to cover relevant national stories by sensationalizing this stuff into tabloid fodder.

[conflictgirl]

77. In the beginning I didn't know what to think

I still don't, really. For some reason, I have found the coverage on this particular issue to be very confusing, so it's not something I have made a top concern.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

78. Never followed it. Never had an opinion. Never cared, and still don't.

[jerry611]

85. It's about racism

There is absolutely no evidence to prove that any of those boys committed any crime at all.

But look at this case, it stinks of politics. You got 3 white boys indicted for raping a black stripper. If the DA drops the case, all the blacks will cry about racism.

It has gotten so bad that the government is forced to persue cases where there is no evidence to go forward. I mean this case is open and shut. There is no evidence at all that these boys commited this rape. This goes to trial and there is no way there will be a conviction.

[LisaL]

97. Agreed.

There is no evidence the men have committed the crime they are accused of.
The woman couldn't even tell a consistent coherent story when she made her accusations. There is no DNA evidence indicating that any type of sex even took place. There is DNA evidence indicating the woman had sex with her boyfriend not that long before the party, even though she claimed she had sex a week before the rape. The other dancer that was at the party clearly didn't witness any rape.
Yet a lot of you apparently have no problem with conduct of Mr. Nifong, and no problem with our justice system that seemingly allows the rights of the accused to be ignored because they are white males, and a lot of you prefer to ignore this case altogether. Obviously it was much easier to damn the accused when in the beginning it appeared the charges were plausible.
But now, lets just ignore it?

[prettykitty]

86. changed the channel

the M$M lives off the underbelly of society, i have a rule to ignore them whenever i can.

you should to, it will make you feel much better, too ;-)

:hi:

[upi402]

90. it must be on TV news, which I don't look at

useless