to those of you who believe we are near the end of democracy/the world

[Hamlette]

I'd like to invite you to read up on the history of this country, including our presidents and supreme court justices.

The "patriot act" of WWI was MUCH harsher than the current one. It was illegal for any newspaper to publish anything that might reflect badly on the administration. Illegal. Or for any leader to say anything bad about the government in a group of people. And union leaders and others went to jail for 10 years for criticizing the government. Eugene Debs was sentenced to 10 years in prison when he was head of the socialist party here. Because he was critical of the government. the criticism didn't even have to be about the war.

Overt racism was discussed in the halls of government as recently as 20 years ago. And don't forget slavery. Read some of the cases before Brown and some after...better still, listen to the oral arguments of those cases. It will shock you how openly racist many in the country were.

Alito is not the end of the world. The court has been this conservative before, even more so. Honestly, we've had worse presidents...some of them were Dems (gasp...but true). Progress sometimes comes more slowly than we want.

It's a long hard battle. 50% of Americans thought the war in Vietnam was wrong in 1968 and it took 6 more years to get out. Segretation was legal in my lifetime. Abortion was not. In 1964 it was illegal in Conneticut (and other states) for a doctor to give a woman (married or not) ANY information about birth control. It doesn't always look like it but we really are on a steady course...two steps forward, one back. We're taking one back right now. This too will pass.

[hlthe2b]

1. I appreciate the attempt..

to provide some balancing perspective... Keep posting...

:toast:

[FlemingsGhost]

2. Ooooo .... Oooooo ... Tell us about the Great Depression!

How will the impending economic collapse be kinder and gentler since having made two steps forward?

[file83]

74. LOL! That was friggin' hilarious. It's a good

comeback for a very patronizing parent post. :rofl:

[Deja Q]

85. Exactly. No collapse is a good collapse.

Just like how no Gnu is like Gary Gnu, but I digress...

Though the collapse itself won't be a sudden kerplunk... because, when it happens, things really will get bad.

[Vincardog]

3. This will not pass if we let them appoint a SC justice who believes

the pResident can decide the law. There has never been a time in this country where we were closer to unfettered FASCISM and a disgusting POLICE STATE. WE MUST FIGHT BACK NOW.

This too will pass does not work here.

[nicknameless]

94. Exactly. (n/t)

[firefox]

4. No. Bush is the worst president ever.

[Sinewave58]

64. Worst President?

I would have to give that dishonor to our 15th president, Mr.Buchanan. Many dark similarities though between Presidents Buchanan and Bush, if you consider the issues at hand during their respective times in office.

[doublethink]

68. Okay name 5 things of their similarities you see? ......

Condoning Torture? Lying to the American People and Illegal spying on them over and over again? Sending our troops to an illegal war to kill innocent civilians in a sovereign nation for oil and war profiteering? Dismantling the Constitution? Complete disregard for the laws of the land? Running our Country into bankruptcy with unsustainable debt? I could go on and on ..... but these are just Bush. Throw some of the 'similarities' you saw in Buchanan's Presidency my way and I'll bet I can come back at you and top you 10 fold with Bush's accomplishments. Peace. :)

[Sinewave58]

73. I'm quite sure we both could

identify 10-fold matters of serious Bush-related concerns to each one noted for Buchanan. However, that wasn't directly what I was driving at even though I left that direction, if you will, unwritten.

Buchanan was a fine individual, respected member of Congress, with other accolades that could be mentioned. But, if any US president "fiddled while Rome burned" it was he. I think we knew (at least nearly) what we were getting with Bush presidencies. Buchanan, on the other hand stunned the nation as president. His complacency (as it was viewed by the public in his time) was of such dereliction of duty that I can't, in my mind and as I understand his history, even place his presidency near anyone else. Just a simple opinion on my part - no controversy intended. Peace to you as well.

[doublethink]

86. Well that was vague ........

Hey look I get enough ideology, make no sense answer drive by responses from enough Republicans in this world. If you have something concrete to say with facts then please do. Otherwise just don't respond. But :hug: and Peace. :)

[Sinewave58]

90. I'll consider whether I should...

steer clear in the future. I didn't realize this was a "just the facts and only the facts" site. No opining allowed I take it as you've clearly written. I appreciate you taking the time to point this out to me.

I am new to the site, this is true, and had just begun posting. After re-reading my posts, I don't see any idealogical expression, but if you did then so be it. Your assumption, therefore, that I am a "drive-by" is incorrect, unless of course the Joe Friday Rule is indeed upheld in which case there's no sense in me hanging out or checking in since I can go to encyclopedias for facts. I'm also not a member of the Republican Party. Is it safe, however, for me to assume that your order to "just not respond" applies only to your posts or am I now forbidden from posting period?

Double-peace doublethink.

[doublethink]

110. Yea !!!!

welcome to DU Sinewave58!! :toast: You gotta have a 'thick skin' at times on this board and I was just helping break you in! You should thank me for looking out for you! Double Peace to you too! Sincerely :hi:

[Sinewave58]

121. Thank you, doublethink, n/t

[madeline_con]

91. "... we knew ... what we were getting with Bush ..."

Just a quick note. I honestly feel that we were cold cocked when DUH-bya stole the election/ was appointed King, or however one might describe the crime of becoming President twice, despite the vote.

[AX10]

5. "This too will pass"

In the mean time, the groundwork for a fascist government has been laid in concrete.

[Hamlette]

12. that's what we said under Nixon and Reagan. n/t

[doublethink]

14. Bush my friend is no Nixon or Reagan.

and as to your original post ..... name me one, just one worst President than Bush? Lastly post #9 here by MadHound is the reason I nominated this thread for the greatest page. Don't get complacent, IMHO you have some catching up to do. Peace.

[Hamlette]

57. I'd argue that Johnson and Nixon were worse

Johnson: not only did he escalate Vietnam, he KNEW we couldn't win...and stayed; Olds; stopping civil rights in the Senate. He was a real creep.

Nixon: breaking into shrink's offices, DNC offices, getting the CIA to spy on the FBI to find out how much the FBI had on him, the enmies list?

I also think Alito is nothing compared to Bork.

In 25 years, hopefully you'll all be honest enough to look back on these days and say: "sheesh, we thought W was the end of the world."

[doublethink]

58. Keep going you got a lot of other responses to answer to.

:rofl:

[Telly Savalas]

81. No. It's the same damn response 50 times only worded differently.

:rofl:

[doublethink]

60. Okay all kidding aside ....

Johnson? a Democrat? You believe he was a worse President then Bush? :wtf: :shrug: And tell me, what do you know about the Civil Rights act of 1964. And the correspondence between Martin Luther King and President Johnson back then? I'd be curious to know? And on the 'war' issue .... do you personally think we can 'win' in Iraq? Are you saying this about Johnson to divert what Bush is doing as if 'well this has been done before and it too 'will come to pass' see ...... a Democratic did it once so there! again :wtf: Two wrongs don't make a right here sir or mam. I'm beginning to wonder why you haven't blamed something on Clinton yet? Nixon? Worse than Bush? Give me a break. The guy actually worked with China and other Nations ... in a coherent manner in his later Presidency ... not to dispel his earlier and later crimes, but even John Dean who partook in Nixon's bullshit will tell you Bush is WAY beyond Nixon. Oh my God, Alito vs Bork. Tell me what kinda of comparison is that? Bork was rejected by the Senate. That's like comparing Charles Manson to the latest popular serial killer on network T.V. ..... give me a break. Good luck in your next 25 years of complacency and subjugation to whatever else you apathetically don't want to stand up for and defend. Get real, but Peace always. :)

[Hamlette]

65. yeah, Johnson, a democrat

Maybe not worse, certainly horrid. I won't "give" him the civil rights act in light on his history on civil rights for all his life before that. He was ALL about politics. He'd do what he had to do to get elected, or re-elected. Remember 1964 was 10 full years after Brown. And during those 10 years Johnson spent his time in the Senate defeating civil rights bills.

I don't think we can win in Iraq. I believe Bush does. We know Johnson knew we couldn't win in Vietnam. That makes Johnson more evil...to me.

I'm not making the argument that "two wrongs make a right" I'm making the argument that people who say if the Dems don't filibuster Alito they will leave the party. That won't help, as Ralph showed us in 2000. And the GOP shows us everyday. It makes us mad that they support Bush but, do you think its a coincidence that they control all three branches of government? I don't.

Nixon was bad. I can't believe you people are defending him because of China. Sheesh. It had to happen, he was just the guy in the right place at the right time. But does that absolve him of his enemies list? (Yeah, the FBI was syping on us) breaking into a guy's shirk's office because he leaked the pentagon papers? Getting the CIA to spy on the FBI to find out if the FBI knew what a crook he was? There was some serious abuse during the Nixon years.

I'm not sure, if you knew me, you'd consider me complacent. But I remember these wars too. I absolutely could not believe that there were Democrats who didn't support McCarthy or McGovern. I thought they had no idea that the world was going to come to an end if those guys didn't win. We tought they were complacent too. Some of us fight the good fight in different ways. My way was to dedicate my life to helping the poor which is now not only my full time job but I volunteer too (food kitchen once a week). And I give what I can to the Dems, always (in fact, I just paid off my credit card from the 2004 election this month!), and protest the war once a week. I'm the one with the "honk for peace" sign in front of the federal building every thursday night. And I lobby in my state and in DC for welfare legislation. I don't think I'm complacent.

To paraphrase Mark Twain: I'm an old woman and I've seen a great many troubles but most of them never happened.

And to quote Clinton: There is nothing wrong about America that can't be fixed by what's right about America.

[doublethink]

83. Wisdom doesn't always come with age.....

I still think your a bit naive ;) but thank you for this post. And for your calm demeanor and caring for the poor, disadvantaged and meek of the earth. That says a lot about you. We all can't be as 'militant' in our attitudes to what we believe in attempting to institute change. The key words to your original post 'this too shall come to pass' just came off as so passive. And I think quite a few of us here on the DU see Americans just going about their business .... consuming and what-not ... while drip, drip, drip, our Country and World is being Raped. Relax .... I don't expect my own mom to get too involved in bringing this Bush regime down, she helped keep this Country going to this point and deserves a few days off too. :)

"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
- Martin Luther King Jr.

"Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe."
- H. G. Wells

"Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance."
- Will Durant

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity."
- Albert Einstein

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
- Edmund Burke

"I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat!"
- Will Rogers

Peace :hug:

[Hamlette]

93. you hit a nerve. . .

It is impossible for me to count how many protests I've participated in in my life, been arrested a time or two as well...peacefully protesting...and every week I stand on the corner with about half a dozen other people (sometimes we get about a dozen), all MY age (55). Not one kid is there. And I'm complacent? I'm taking a well deserved break?

Maybe you will tell me what more I could do? Maybe you can tell me where the h*ll are the hundreds of thousands of people who showed up to protest when I was college age. My generation fought for equal rights, abortion rights, against the war in Vietnam and we didn't do it just by writing letters to our congresscritters. We did it by protesting, by never missing a mass meeting, by getting people elected, if only at the local level, who are sympathetic to our issues. We did it with sit-ins at lunch counters, by organizing boycotts of clubs and places with discriminatory practices (there are none left in my very red state). I've not had a Coors beer since 1976 because he's a pig. And I didn't eat grapes for years. I am a completely blue shopper and before that concept came along my whole family has bought nothing but local for a couple of decades. I've never even been to Starbucks (although admittedly blue) because I get my coffee at the locally owned places. I wouldn't buy a book on Amazon if it was the ONLY place I could get it. Yep. Local book stores only for me. Maybe there is something you think we should/could have done/should be doing that would have been more effective but you must surely admit it was the protests in the 60s that brought an end to segregation (that and some wonderful legal work...which is why I became a lawyer).

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think signing internet petitions is going to help here.

Nor will leaving the Dem party or spending my time bitching about how awful the Dems are for not filibustering Alito. IMHO.

So, since I'm taking what you consider to be a break, you might tell me what you are doing that is more constructive. I might well join you if I think it might help. I'd surely not want you think me complacent but for the next two months I'll be "living" at our state legislature lobbying to keep them from cutting Medicaid and public assistance. But let me know what to do and I'll consider ending my "much deserved break" and help you young people fight the good fight. (rolling eyes).

[American liberal]

105. good for you, Hamlette. Thank you and keep up the good work!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

111. Personally I am very sorry

I don't meet your expectations for activism. I never will.

I think the fact that I even read and respond to DU says a lot. But I will raise my children and grandchildren to be decent human beings, I will feed the hungry and clothe the poor and visit the prisoners, (all things ordered of my by my faith). I will give money to just causes.

I will teach a generation of children in my classrooms and share my beliefs as much as they will accept.

And I've even been known to write a letter, email, or make a phone call now and then.

But I'll not listen to more and more wailing and gnashing of teeth that somehow suggest I hit the street with molotov cocktails (speaking figuratively) cuz I'm not going there. I still believe in our system, It is strained but it isn't broken.

Mostly I plant gardens and raise chickens. And I'm getting eight young goslings next week.

This is me and this is the best I can do and it is all I intend on doing. If that makes me apathetic by other peoples' definition, well..I'm old enough now to not be concerned about other peoples' definitions.

[mitchum]

63. Johnson was the most liberal president of my lifetime

[Telly Savalas]

82. I'm sure the people of Vietnam agree heartily.

[mitchum]

123. He was indeed a warmonger, but his DOMESTIC policies were easily...

the most liberal of my lifetime. I'm sure that the African-Americans (and many others) of America would agree.

[rman]

98. and we were correct, just look at where we are today. n/t

[hfojvt]

120. wasn't it true though?

I could not even come close to finishing "Sleepwalking through history" it was just too heart-breaking. I remember reading Michael Harrington's "Decade of Decision" and I believe he pointed out how alot of things had been done by Reagan that have hurt this country in ways that we are unaware of. As our prison population, deficit, gap between the rich and poor, the number of people working two jobs and for temp employers, and so on, keeps growing. We are being boiled alive without knowing that the water keeps getting hot and the BFEE types keep shovelling coals on the fires they hold to our feet.

But where is the point of know return? Our civilization is a two story house of cards with some idiot destruction workers knocking out walls in the name of being "conservative". True this house has collapsed worse and been rebuilt, just like the Chicago fire, the Great Depression, WWII, and so on have not proven fatal, but it is still quite heartbreaking that we cannot stop these people with the elections of 2002 and 2004 when their sheer incompetence, dishonesty, cupidity and malevolence are so plain for us to see.

[JeffR]

6. Thanks for posting this

Wish a few more people around here would read it and think about it.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

7. Ahhhhh soothing words

There is a whole lot of teeth gnashing here today.

I try to remember that once it was illegal to marry a black man; I couldn't, as a woman, own property or vote; only the missionary position was legal and only between a man and a woman; lynching wasn't prosecuted; some folks (like my mother) didn't own shoes until they hit puberty; it was illegal to teach Africans to read; women couldn't wear pants; abortions were illegal everywhere; polio was rampant; you had to have five kids in order to end up with 2...

I could go on.

Perspective is important in a struggle. Without it we wilt and die.

[kevinbgoode]

11. But I thought those are exactly the "traditional" values

the "conservatives" are crowing about with each encroachment on human progress. Those are precisely the things they want rolled back, slowly, of course....but with absolute certainty. They've already launched their not-so-subtle attacks on women and minorities. The gays are just the primary target for now.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

13. Just because a group of people

want to go backwards doesn't mean we will get there again. I teach middle school kids. You aren't going to take them back to another century.

A few political losses don't destroy a generation of progress.

The pendulum swung so hard and so fast in the 60's that there was bound to be reaction, and we are seeing it now. But it will swing back again. The horse is out of the barn and she's not going back in to stay.

[renate]

18. I agree; in fact I think the pendulum is already swinging back again

A year ago I was absolutely certain that America as we knew it was well and truly over. I mean, once elections are stolen in broad daylight, it's all over for democracy, by definition. And despite the brazennness of the Halliburton contracts and the lying us into war and the absence of WMDs (I could go on and on and on), almost nobody said a word, at least in public. The media and a small majority of the population were complicit in BushCo's crimes.

In the last few months--some would say after Cindy Sheehan's stand, although to me it seemed to really start after Katrina--all that is changing. Corporate media commentators are openly calling Bush an unpopular president and talking about a return of the House to Democratic control. Jack Abramoff is a ticking time bomb and everybody knows it. A year ago, we might have heard fifteen seconds a night about it on the news and been damn grateful to get that.

I totally agree that the administration thirsts for complete Big Brother control, and without Katrina and Abramoff and the slow but steady opening of the public's eyes, I think it really would have happened. Now, I at least have hope.

[Telly Savalas]

79. No. We're totally doomed, there's no hope, and you're an obvious

freeper troll for thinking otherwise.

(And it's really pathetic that I need to make clear that I'm joking.)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

109. LOL

pass the koolaide, huh?

[psychopomp]

100. One word: Katrina

We, as a nation, turned a corner there. Most of the people who lost their lives passed away after the storm had passed. The world saw what was happening but was powerless to force the president to act.

[Seabiscuit]

107. Yeah, things ain't so bad. We're going back to those things but so what -

we've been there before.

I feel sooooo relieved.

BTW: anyone want a 100 coathangers cheap? I got a special deal starting next week.

[Dirty Hippie]

8. Everyone should read Howard Zinn's

A People's History of the United States.


It gave me comfort. Maybe... just maybe, this too shall pass.

[Talismom]

48. Actually, I'm about half through it and far from comforting me, it's makin

me aware of how unbelievably good we've had it in my life-time. Historically speaking, it has always been more common for the average person to work and struggle for the feudal system that kept the few rich families rich while we toiled in poverty 'til we dropped dead young. I'm afraid that we're headed back to the historical norm which sounds like a hellish old age for me and a much harder life for my kids than what we've come to expect.

[serryjw]

71. No comfort............the world is now different

Forty years ago everything that happened in the world did not effect your daily lives.

[MadHound]

9. Ah yes, the Espionage and Sedition Acts

I love when people bring out those old chestnuts in order to somehow make the Patriot act look good. Sorry friend, but it doesn't work. First off, much of those two laws were wiped off the books in '21, and virtually all of the rest were ruled unconstitutional at one point or another. Second, those acts didn't make it legal to run a warrantless wiretap, a sneak and peak search, actively monitor each and every email, nor concentrate such power in the hands of the executive branch. No President in history has taken unto himself the power to declare a citizen an enemy combatant, strip said citizen of their citizenship and then ship them to Gitmo for "rendition". And there has never been an administration that has encouraged torture like this one has, rightly so for as every expert on the subject will tell you, torture is one of the least reliable methods of getting good information.

And while there have been economic times comparable to ours, we are breaking many records. Read up on the Gilded Age, that period of the robber barons, lasting from the 1860s-1930s. That was the last time when incredible amounts of wealth were concentrated in the hands of the few. Thing is, we have broken that previous record, our country's wealth is now concentrated into least amount of hands ever. The gap between the rich and the rest of us has also reached a record breaking chasm, the wealthy now are worth record breaking obscene amounts, even if the differences for inflation are taken into account. These are the great signs of an unbalance economy, and they are at full red. The Gilded Age corrected that imbalance by falling into the Great Depression. Well if we're breaking these records now, most certainly our correction will also break records.

Then there is the matter of the media. We are living in an age of propaganda and spin. When once, not that long ago, there were literally thousands of independent media outlets, through mergers and consolidation our media has become so concentrated that 95% of it is in the hands of six corporations, half of which have an active interest in continuing this war for profit and empire.

And then I talk with my old neighbors, the men and women from Germany that I grew up with. They lived through the run up to WWII. They watched as Hitler took over their beloved country and set loose the ravages of fascism. The experienced the mood of the people, the hyperpatriotism, the disappearance of civil liberties, the rise of the police state, and you know what? They're scared shitless. They see the same evil taking root over here. They fled from one fascist state to the most free country on the face of this planet, only to watch in their declining years as once again, fear and hysteria allows a meglamaniac take over the reigns of government and twist that freedom into an iron fisted dictatorship.

Wake up friend, and look around. This is the crisis of our times, the emergency of our hour. This isn't comparable to any other president or time period in the entire history of the United States. The only President who tried to corrupt the Executive Branch in any form like Bush was Nixon, and he was forced to resign long before he inflicted the kind of damage that Bush has. If you want to comfort yourself with this pleasant little fantasy fine, but stop spreading this nonsense and get out of the way. There are those of us who have work to do, and pleasant pieces of tripe do nothing but impede that work. Delude yourself, fine, but it is negligent to try and delude others when the evidence proving elsewise is so readily abundant around us.

[doublethink]

16. You my friend are a true patriot .....

and have been paying attention. Peace. :toast:

[KitSileya]

22. Wonderful reply, MadHound.

You tell it like it is, so that these heirs of Neville Chamberlain hear it.

The confirmation of Samuel Alito might not be the end of the world, but it is the end of the United States of America in everything but on paper.

[jokerman93]

32. Thanks for that n/t

[MissWaverly]

36. thanks for cutting thru the spin

I am 52 and I have never seen anything like this in our country, we have jumped into a looking glass, war means peace, aggression means friendly relations, tyranny means democracy. We have never invaded a nation on a whim to please corporate interests to my knowledge before this. We may have invaded to fight communism but that wasn't over
some company's profit margin.

[peekaloo]

38. .

:applause:

:patriot:

[hang a left]

42. Thank you Madhound!!!

The OP needs to back away from the Koolaid.

[zippy890]

45. VERY good post

and quite well written:thumbsup:

[Talismom]

49. You are so right! This period in the US resembles nothing so much as

the first 5years of Hitler as chancellor. The rhetoric died down a bit while he and his buddies gutted civil liberties and imprisoned activist ministers and academicians and by the time people realized how disarmed they were, he could do whatever he wanted. I'm scared shitless and frustrated by the la-de-da reactions of those around me!

[Pooka Fey]

55. Kudos to you for an excellent rebuttal.

[incapsulated]

88. Excellent post!

I really don't want to hear that I should be grateful things aren't as bad as "the old days". I mean, jesus, I thought the point was, oh, NOT repeating the same mistakes, actually progressing rather than regressing... Shit, you go back far enough my ancestors where enslaved and women couldn't vote. So, that's supposed to make me feel better? Please! Germany was a democracy before it turned fascist, history means nothing at certain periods. Year Zero. Read up on that.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

112. Germany was a democracy

for a very short time. And it was one of the the most corrupt democracies ever. Germany had also been humiliated and decimated and all but destroyed by an earlier war, leaving the people angry and ready for a savior.

We have devices in place..the system is not dead. Elections, (with every day more activity toward paper ballots); a healthy and outspoken opposition; prosecutions of corruption.

I still trust the system to right itself. When the families on each side of my house suddenly disappear and I've told to sew a yellow star on my blouse I will accept a full parallel to Hitler. Right now, in my respectful opinion, it is hyperbole and not healthy hyperbole.

[incapsulated]

119. That wasn't my point...

The idea that the OP is putting forth is that progress is somehow linear, that we can look to the past and view ourselves favorably. It is not the case when looking toward future probabilities, however. Even a corrupt democracy is better than the Third Reich, which I don't believe was something even the most cynical saw coming. In fact, most turned a blind eye to the militarization of Germany because they believed they had the right, that the humiliation after the war was too great for a country to be expected to bear. The didn't expect what happened. The few who did, like Churchill, were, ironically, dismissed as hysterics.

I wasn't comparing the US to Germany, only the idea that things can look very "normal" one day, especially if you rely on the past as prologue, and descend with amazing speed into something quite horrible.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

124. I agree

and it is sad that progress really doesn't appear to be linear. We were stinkers then, we're stinkers now and we'll be stinkers in the future.

In my original response I was trying to point out that these are the best of times and also the worst of times. We can find evidence to support both sides.

Good post.

[RufusEarl]

10. his to will pass?

I appreciate your sentiment, but things in this country have changed allot since WW11. Population for one, so many people so little space. My wife and I have been thinking of selling out and heading for the hills.

Somewhere that's not so populated, so perhaps we can grow a garden. I know it sounds so 60's but if you read Michael Ruppert, it's one of the things he suggest. I have friends that have been buying gold and property in the northwest, with plans to cut all ties with society best they can.

I think we'll know for sure after the mid term elections, if the Dem's fail to take back the house then Bu$h can and will continue to be king. I predict if the Dem's don't take back the house and start hearing on the Bu$h regime, that Bu$h will not leave office in 08.

I know this country has had problem in the past, but nothing compares to the current government. Under one party rule, we don't stand a chance for any type of society I want to be apart of.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

113. Do it!

Get into the country. Get some land. Feel the dirt in your hands. Look up at starts you can see without light pollution.

It keeps my sanity.

If you want to know about raising chickens, private email me!

[doublethink]

15. Yea ...... now everyone just go shopping now.

Nothing to see here. :rofl:

[Telly Savalas]

80. God forbid somebody tries to maintain some perspective.

:rofl:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. Take a longer and wider look at history.

There have always been "super powers". Eventually, they all crumble due to the rot inside. Few have done so without thrashing about in their death throes and doing incredible damage to the rest of the world. Most of them considered themselves the bringers of "civilization", "prosperity", and "enlightenment".

So, we have "picked up the white man's burden" and are now spreading "democracy" (even though we lack it here) and the joys of consumerism to the benighted rest of the world.

There is a long list of fallen empires who considered themselves acting out of noble ideals of one sort or the other. Our turn is coming as the "barbarians" grow wearier of sacrificing themselves for our benefit. They want their share of the pie that they produce and we consume.

[IndyOp]

19. My 10 cents: Can't complain 'til walked as far as Ben Ferencz...

The lawyer who prosecuted the Nazi command; who weeps today when he recalls that after suing on behalf of Jews who had been in death camps they each got cents per day for each day spent in Auchwitz; the man who has fought for the International Criminal Court for decades after living the power of Nuremburg.

< http://www.benferencz.org >

Really, friends, what is the only moral choice? You keep doing what is right, because it is right. Taking time to catch your breath, to consider what might be the next right step that is fine, good.

Wasting time wallowing in depressed feelings... big fears... academic comparisons...

Right now is a very, very serious time. Action is required. Let's just keep going.

[SmokingJacket]

20. Just a step back...

But it is a step back. I'm not predicting the end of the world, but I would like it to be acknowledged that we ARE slipping backward.

I'm not sure the media have ever been *quite* so bought and paid for, in this country, anyway.

[Greyhound]

21. You sure you're not a repuke? You use their tactic of semi-truth and

innuendo in your post pretty effectively.
I challenge you to name a worse president.
You conveniently forget to mention the results of the more conservative (to use your propaganda phrase, these assholes are anything but conservative) SCOTUS.
You fail to mention the legislative destruction that has been done and cannot be undone by simply electing a new group of representatives.
Where are you coming from? I'd really like to know from where you think relief will come?

[BrklynLiberal]

23. That is probably what the moderate Gemans thought about Hitler while

he was taking over.. and HE was actually elected!!!!

http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know it doesn't make people close to their government to be told that this is a people's government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing to do with knowing one is governing.

What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

......

"Your "little men," your Nazi friends, were not against National Socialism in principle. Men like me, who were, are the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemoller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing: and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something - but then it was too late."

....

[IndyOp]

31. The war gave the Nazis control they needed to kill the Jews

"Once the war began," my colleague continued, "resistance, protest, criticism, complaint, all carried with them a multiplied likelihood of the greatest punishment. Mere lack of enthusiasm, or failure to show it in public, was "defeatism." You assumed that there were lists of those who would be "dealt with" later, after the victory. Goebbels was very clever here, too. He continually promised a "victory orgy" to "take care of" those who thought that their "treasonable attitude" had escaped notice. And he meant it; that was not just propaganda. And that was enough to put an end to all uncertainty.

"Once the war began, the government could do anything "necessary" to win it; so it was with the "final solution" of the Jewish problem, which the Nazis always talked about but never dared undertake, not even the Nazis, until war and its "necessities" gave them the knowledge that they could get away with it. The people abroad who thought that war against Hitler would help the Jews were wrong. And the people in Germany who, once the war had begun, still thought of complaining, protesting, resisting, were betting on Germany's losing the war. It was a long bet. Not many made it."

:( :( :( :(

[madeline_con]

92. "... believing that the situation was so complicated ..."

".. or so dangerous .."

There's the crux of their argument to support any of their illegal actions. :(

[doublethink]

24. Hello once again my friend.

I keep coming back to this thread trying to understand your original premise. First ... you quote nothing in your argument beyond 1968, besides generalizations of a couple of Presidents, in coming to your conclusions. That's almost 40 years of mans stupidity you've glossed over. Where have you been? It reminds me of the other day when my mom 78 years old (God bless her and our elders) asked me 'Who has better Nuclear Weapons us or China?' She hates Bush and she lived through WW2 but hasn't a fricking clue when talking about the destructive power and annihilation of a Nuclear War. What kind of answer would you say to that? All I could say was relax mom keep the faith, and we'll keep fighting for what we believe is right. And that has nothing ....... nothing to do with complacency, or the 'this too shall come to pass' mentality you are propagating here. Bush too said some asinine statement awhile back about 'just go shopping' our economy is strong ........ handing out tax breaks, while young men are dieing every frickig day in Iraq. Well 'this too shall come to pass' won't happen soon enough for our those guys will it? Never give up hope, but if hope is all you have, well faith without works is dead. All the best. Peace. :)

[AlGuest]

25. Thank you for an excellent post

I tell this to some of my friends who are continuously telling me how
everyone's civil rights have never been under this level of assault.
Even though I want to see things removed from the Patriot Act it is
certainly not even close to the restrictions of previous "war time"
legislation. Most people I talk to about this are completely
ignorant of history. Damn public school education. :)

[doublethink]

53. WTF?

:wtf: are you saying here?

[Extend a Hand]

26. I might be more willing to buy it

*IF* we weren't facing threats on other fronts as well. We will shortly enter a period of declining energy supplies. Our banking system (and entire economy) is based on a model that requires the perpetual growth that has been made possible by the availability of cheap abundant energy. Once demand for energy outpaces supply-- all bets are off. Things could get really dark really quickly.

I believe the Bush administrations is expecting a real crisis, real soon. I believe they are getting ready to remain in power in a really dark time.

That's why I'm sad. I'm even more sad because I don't think it has to be this way. I wish we had leaders that would address moving quickly towards a sustainable lifestyle and economy.

[AlGuest]

29. Oh please....

I've been hearing about declining energy supplies for decades yet there is
always more suplies of oil been found. The US has vast supplies of oil
and natural gas but because of environmental laws we may never benefit
from it. Also there is new technology under development all the time
that allows for more efficient use of energy. There is even now a
process to make vegetable oil into fuel. I don't think we'll run out
of vegetables soon.

Don't be sad sad_one because thing are usually not as bad as you
think.

[Extend a Hand]

33. Did you read the Hirsch Report?

paid for by our tax dollars and published by the DOE (2/05)?

I heard and interview with Hirsh and he said he was so shaken up by his findings that he couldn't even bring himself to speak publicly about it for several months.

[FogerRox]

37. it takes more energy to make oil from veggies than you want to know

It is a flight of fancy to think we can raise soybeans or any other crop to supply fuel for the planet. Let alone the USA. It takes fuel to run Tractors to rasie veggies.

There has not been a new oil field found in over ten years. Enviro laws do not effect oil reserves that are miniscule in comparison to demand.

Energy efficiency is one thing, if you have the energy to conserve. Plus, there are only so many BTUs in a gallon of gas. Think Solar & Wind. In NJ it costs about 10 grand to equip a house with Solar cells that enable said house to be a net producer of electricity.

[doublethink]

56. Okay ... I quote you ...

"I've been hearing about declining energy supplies for decades yet there is
always more supplies of oil been found. The US has vast supplies of oil
and natural gas but because of environmental laws we may never benefit
from it."

95% to 98 % of all the available Oil Fields in the Entire World have been found. This is in the entire World, the Planet Earth. There are no more. Oil 'Exploration' is a dead subject. With the increase of demand (China, U.S.A, India etc.. etc...) tell me on which Planet we intend to find this black gold? Hence the Big Oil Company's are no longer investing in exploration, but in buying up if they can other smaller companies. This can only last so long. Even if we were to explore and destroy to the top of Mt. Everest and any other meaningless 'natural habitats' like 'ANWR' :sarcasm: it would be a drop in the bucket to be sucked up by the consuming public in a matter of months. Welcome to the 'Oil Wars' began with the invasion of Iraq in 2003 .... to continue unfortunately in Iran 2006. You give me links to your claims and I will provide mine. Peace. :)

[RufusEarl]

117. You need to do some research,

Read Michael Ruppert for starters. It's has some of the best info on the upcoming energy shortfalls, and perk oil problem that face this country and the globe. Really do some research!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

27. "This Too Will Pass". I agree, but we must come together and fight as

one. We must not allow our resolve to be shaken, and we must always focus on our mission of justice for those that have sought to destroy our country and it's constitution and values.

I hear what you are saying, and understand where you are coming from. But I also know you must recognize how dangerous These times are and that though it is not an "end of democracy the sky is falling" scenario as some here may make it, things are still going down a pretty seriously wrong path right now. It is up to us to change it, to stop it, to make things right again. Yes, it will take time and I have no doubt in my heart that this too shall pass, as you have stated. But I hope you agree that it won't pass by us just simply sitting back and waiting for it, but instead needs us to keep up the fight like never before, spread the message, and all take active unified roles in protecting and saving our democracy.

[leftchick]

28. We have a much worse situation now....

We have election fraud not seen on this scale in our nation's history. Nothing will fix that with repukes still in charge.

[happydreams]

122. Delete

[Jawja]

30. Thank you for your post.

My Mom, who witnessed the rise of Hitler and WWII, has been telling me to have faith in the American People - that something unforseen could happen to derail the * criminal cabal.

I greatly appreciate the history lesson. We must not forget that the WORST was the Civil War, where we were fractured to the point of shooting our neighbors.

We will overcome this dark period in our history.

[RazzleDazzle]

34. Yours is a very dangerous perspective

If you truly don't understand that things are deteriorating FAST and that this "experiment" called a democratic republic hangs by a thread, you need to study up fast.

It's nice to try to get a little perspective, not be "too" negative, but it's best to have a realistic and reality-based perspective, even if that's a profoundly negative one. We can't save the nation by playing pollyanna. And you're playing pollyanna.

A better course is to be realistic about where we are -- the threats -- and apply your wild optimism to the notion that we CAN fix it, and what we can do to fix it.

[FogerRox]

35. Hamlette- a well written piece

But I completely disagree. Last year I read "American Dynasty" By Kevin Phillips, a good read, very well sourced.

The Dutch Empire descended around 1600. They had a great middle class, the best craftsmen in Europe. Then they started in on "trans national economic alliances. RE- globalism. This pattern repeated itself with the Portuguese, French, Spanish, UK.

One of the major constants is natural resources.

-International fish catch has been in decline since 1975.
-Lumber industry is transitioning from whole dimensional lumber to oriented strandboard. Because we are running out of trees to support the market place for whole dimensional lumber.
-Iron ore in the USA- 1970's saw Iron mines running out of hematite. Now we dig for Taconite, which is harder, brittle and must be crushed before being brought to a furnace. Taconite mines are commonly 1 to 1.5 miles deep. We are running out of Commercially viable iron ore.
-Peak oil. Nuff said.
-Global warming- go to JPL see pics of the North pole in 1975 and 2003, the N. Pole is 1/2 the size it was.

The planet has about 6 billion people. The current management of people and resources suggests that we are near the peak of what the planet can handle. In a better world the planet could handle probably 8 or 10 billion.

Planet Earth is running out of the resources needed for the Human race to continue. By that I mean the human race must proceed into the Solar system. And get the resources needed for continued development.

Never before, in the History of planet Earth have we faced a leader of a military that can bring about hegemony like BUSH. At a time that the planet is running out of the resources it needs to continue.

Never before has the human race faced the same confluence of events we now face.

[lostnfound]

44. Good points, but I think you meant 'billions'

not trillions of people.

[Rex]

46. I'd hate to live with 6 trillion people!

Wouldn't be able to move around.

[FogerRox]

50. yes -- oppppps --wil edit

[jokerman93]

96. FogerRox - a well written piece

And I completely agree.

[Rex]

39. Germany survived Hitler and Russia survived Stalin

but look at the long-term side effects! This is the reason I feel sorry for young people, they are SO screwed and don't even know it yet. :(

[FogerRox]

41. please read post # 35,

[tlsmith1963]

40. I'm Afraid...

...that it *will* be as bad as what you described if we don't keep fighting. So while it isn't as bad now, it doesn't mean that it won't be in the future.

Tammy

[DerekG]

43. Is Bush the worst? Eh, it's like choosing the worst Julio-Claudian emperor

The little shithead we've got now is a front-runner, to be sure, but when you look at his antecedents, it's not an easy competition.

You've got McKinley and T. Roosevelt, molding an empire from the corpses of over 400,000 Filipinos.

You've got Woodrow Wilson, and his romantic/delusional rhetoric about sending us off to "the war to end all wars."

You've got Harry Truman, and his national security state. (A permanent wartime economy? Gee, thanks a lot Harry.)

You've got Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon, peasant-killer extraordinares.

And then there's Ronald "We begin bombing in five minutes" Reagan.



You can't have a fall from grace if you started out in the sewers.

[FogerRox]

51. see post 35

we are running out of space to put people- running out of natural resources.

ANd then The BUSH regime takes over?

[Sinewave58]

66. Being a might harsh I think on

Presidents McKinley and Wilson and down-right wrong, IMHO, with respect to TR, Truman, and LBJ.

[Time for change]

47. But we're rapidly going backwards now

And what President was worse than Bush? Can you elaborate on that?

[Cleita]

52. I know what you are saying, but we have been trying to evolve

away from those days to being a better country, not to go back to those days. I know why white men might have nostalgia for that past because then they held all the power and owned most of the money. It's called entitlement.

[Fleshdancer]

54. These events in our history didn't just "pass" without a fight

It's encouraging to know that Americans has fought successfully in the past against such acts but without the outrage and without the fight, there is no guarantee that we will win again. Passively assuming things will get better because they did in the past is the wrong approach in my opinion.

[DemGirl7]

59. thanks in trying to comfort but its not working for me

It is the 21st Century, and instead of progressing, we are are spinning backwards, we have a federal government that at all three branches, where most of those in charge of defeading the Constitution use it as toliet paper instead. With the media where most of the public gets its information from, being controlled by those who have ties with those in charge of the government, and elections are being stolen & decided by those who have connections with the winning party, those are warning signs of fascism. Then comes the other signs of fascism, and before you know we are a full-blown fascist state, and thats when people who have different ideas than the gov't get hurt and/or are never heard from again. All of it is happening now in our own backyard, and the sad thing is that most Americans don't realize it.

[Skip Intro]

61. You had me 'till "worse presidents."

you're talented

[AzDar]

62. We have a delusional,brain-damaged monkey with his finger on

the 'NOOKOOLAR' trigger, ready to get his Armageddon on and bring about the Rapture.We could be blasted back to the stone-age.
To the best of my knowledge, this was not a concern during the 20th century.

[Sinewave58]

69. From 1946 to 1986

it certainly was a concern. At the height of the Cold War (early 50's to mid 70's I'd say), the national concern was a USSR/USA nuclear attack and response.

[Telly Savalas]

76. And a lot of the "old school conservatives" that often get drooled over

here actually advocated a first strike against the Soviet Union.

[Sinewave58]

78. Ya have that right...

and when that mantra ceased, it was quiet for a while until the "Star Wars" Anti-Missile Defense (I've forgotten the actual acronym for it) supporters started pushing the idea that Soviets were the ones in first strike mode.

[AzDar]

102. Bullshit. NEVER, in the history of the U.S. have we such a lunatic

in charge. Sure, things were tense during the Cold War era, but World Leaders DID NOT want another World War.
In W. we have someone who doesn't give a rat's ass about World Peace, Humanity. or the continuation of existence of life on the planet. He (and those who pull his filthy little puppet-strings)CAN'T WAIT to bring Armageddon on.
This puts our country and the whole world in danger as never before witnessed in history. Perhaps if Genghis Khan or Hitler had nukes......

[Telly Savalas]

75. Shit. Reagan left such a legacy that we seem to have acquired

his powers of memory.

[AzDar]

103. Compared to Bush, Reagan was a Rhodes Scholar; even in the

last years of his Presidency with the Alzheimer's steadily creeping in.
I'm certainly no fan of Reagan's, but I think he was at heart a decent human being, and he loved the U.S....George W. Bush retains neither of those qualities. He is utterly contemptible; POSING as a Patriot.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

114. You have to be kidding me

The Cuban missile crisis? If you lived in Florida or in a large city on the East Coast, you knew real fear.

Jimmy Carter was a self-described "born again" Christian. The nuclear proliferation under Johnson and Nixon was enormous. Nixon left pissed and could have gone nuts and pushed the buttons. Reagan went on and on about "the Evil Empire." Star Wars was his little idea. And he had dementia!

The whole second half of the 20th Century was one huge terror over the button and who would push it. And then there was also the fear that Russia and their succession of unusual personalities would preempt, or the unthinkable...a miscue and we fire back thinking we had been fired upon.

Then we were taught the lovely concept of nuclear winter. And great movies like "The Day After" and "Testament" and "On the Beach" nailed it home.

In my opinion, Bush is not a Rapture believer. He is a political Christian. Now if Falwel and Robertson were in power with the football, I'd move to New Zealand.

[serryjw]

67. We are going BACKWARDS...and I should feel better?

n/t

[T Town Jake]

70. You're gonna get flamed by the know-nothings....

....who think they've seen everything under the sun, and haven't cracked the spine of a genuine history book (as opposed to an junior high textbook) in their lives.

But you're right.

[Telly Savalas]

77. So you're one of those trolls that thinks

the Indian Removal Act of 1830 was more of an infringement of civil rights than the Patriot Act?

[FlemingsGhost]

87. Only to be outdone by the know-it-alls.

Isn't that right, Jake?

[incapsulated]

89. Or get your assed kissed

By people who think they know something.

[Lexingtonian]

72. that is a partial truth

Yes, the country has been worse and more inhumane and more nihilistic before.

But imho what people are so full of anxiety about here isn't the particulars. It's not even the loss of order and consensus or the wastage of the old things and ways. It's that there's nothing emerging in the way of safety or orderliness, no obvious foundation from which to build up again. No clear goal or guiding principle.

Usually this kind of condition means that people glom onto leaders, usually leaders who don't have any particularly good sense of this stuff themselves. These leaders usually fail- but eventually one or another is found who finds the foundations, then grasps the way of restoring order and relevance and new creativity out of the wreckage. FDR/Truman, Lincoln/Johnson, and Washington/Madison are great men not for the wars they led but the productive peace that followed.

[Deja Q]

84. If the crux of the situation is about oil, it will never pass.

Oil. Can't live without it.

[rman]

95. I don't think we should wait for the end of the world to arrive

on our doorstep before we start doing something about it.

Same folks who enabled the WW1 "patriot act" have been at it since, solidifying their grip on government institutions. And they've gotten better at deceiving and controlling us. Just look at the propaganda - it isn't even recognizes as such by the people. Just look at what they can get away with these days, they can do it pretty much out in the open - illegal war, torture, warrentless domestic spying... you name it they do it.

The RW has almost total control over the government branches, Alito will give them more control over the judicial system. It's not that we're better of now then we were during WW1.

[Peter Frank]

97. The Truth Will Rise Again...

Recommended

[rman]

99. To much of "don't worry, be happy" for my taste.

But i think i said that already.

The same people who conceived of Operation Northwoods and the likes, are now i a position to execute those sort of plans. And then we have some people who argue we're better of now then we were then.

[greiner3]

101. As with evolution;

Societies need to be advancing toward more progressive forms. If not, then atrophy occurs and chaos reigns. True, there was fascism, for a while, early in the last century. What happened after that was a boon to civilization that the world had never seen before. By your argument this is such a dip in the overall history of mankind. I'm sorry, I can't buy that. If you are posting in jest, it looks like you got a number of posters!

[BiggJawn]

104. Yeah, and we survived Schickelgruber and Himmler, too.

What if I'm not happy with "Two steps forward, One Step back", since I always seem to find myself on the heel of the foot stepping forward, yet on the toe of the foot stepping back?

One of these days soon, there ain't gonna be no "two steps forward" for us Neo-Serfs.

You're set, nomatter what happens, I'll bet.

[tomreedtoon]

106. How DARE you be optimistic on Democratic Underground!!!

The primary aim of quite a few DU posters is to conduct their own version of the War on Terror. That is, they believe the best way to defeat Bush is to act like him. Get people paranoid and running, like a huge cattle stampede, the same way Bush did after 9/11.

God, what idiots we all are.

And how soon we forget. The primary impact Franklin Roosevelt had when he was elected was optimism. He believed the country could be brought back from depression and futility, and he successfully communicated that to the public. I'm also certain that everyone here forgot how it was for Bill Clinton to walk into the Democratic Convention after his first nomination, to the surprise and cheers of the delegates. It wasn't exactly Rooseveltian, but it was a damn sight more encouraging than any Democratic candidate since...or twelve years before.

If progressives attempt to imitate Bush, as the Democratic Party has attempted to do with its last two candidates, they will lose again; a choice, not an echo, as some Republican used to say. The only way to defeat the masters of terror that run our country is with confidence. You could even say faith - which was a pretty good word and an admired quality for everyone, until Democrats let the Christian Right steal it from them and leave it bleeding and broken in an alleyway.

I'm waiting for the next inspirational Democrat to show up and start reclaiming faith for all of us. And sorry, Hillary Clinton ain't it, and she's the acknowledged frontrunner for 2008.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

115. God damn

but that is a great response. I agree with every word you wrote.

The level of doom is a sort of reverse "war on terror." I never thought of it that way but you are right.

Keep us terrified. Both extremes using the same tactic.

[PATRICK]

108. The worse things you quoted

count as legal precedents for Bush. The only infallible law is bad law Bush decides to use when he bothers even to defend his actions.

it only shows where we are going, not a consolation for what we are accepting now- and the consequences differ so extremely between then and now as to make the comparison between a dictator in Podunk and Nero
just a tinge philosophical. Also it is bigger than Alito or the consolations of the game. It is part of rejecting the renegade executive completely- with the disrespect and opposition it has mightily earned and dared as it moves ever on itself to higher stakes.

[helderheid]

116. I appreciate this, but technology makes it a hell of a lot easier to steal

an election these days. Not saying it didn't happen back then. Just a lot easier to do it now.

[BrklynLiberal]

118. kick... just for the hell of it.

and a link to another thread having a similar discussion


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x133897

Peter Franks's post:

Not unlike the legendary experiment where a frog placed in hot water will immediately hop away. Whereas a frog placed in cold water which is heated gradually, will become the main ingredient for the soup Nazi.