Was Zarqawi Beaten to Death by G.I.'s? I thought that from the outset.

[Philosoraptor]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/10/iraq/main1699100.shtml


(CBS/AP) An Iraqi man who was one of the first people on the scene of the U.S. airstrike targeting Abu Musab al-Zarqawi said he saw American troops beating a man who had a beard like the al Qaeda leader.

The witness, who lives near the house where al-Zarqawi spent his last days, said he saw the man lying on the ground near an irrigation canal. He was badly wounded but still alive, the man told Associated Press Television News.

U.S. troops arriving on the scene wrapped the man's head in an Arab robe and began beating him, said the local man, who refused to give his name or show his face to the camera. His account could not be independently verified.

[mhr]

1. Has Any Official Story From *ushco Ever Been True?

That answers the question.

[Rhiannon12866]

2. Thanks for posting this. This is important. K&R.

They need to clarify this, ASAP, but nobody seems to know the real truth, or they aren't saying.:-(

[Philosoraptor]

7. Third day, third version of the story.

As I suspected.

[Rhiannon12866]

18. I know. They keep changing it, don't they?!

I was pretty shocked when they finally came out with the revelation that he survived the blast, yesterday on CNN. After covering this story, 24/7, for a day and a half, they finally announced this?! I can't imagine what's coming next, but wonder if we'll ever hear the real truth.:-(

[Mr_Spock]

3. Wouldn't be too surprising if they did

...though that could have been anyone. They beat people pretty regularly from what I can gather.

[Philosoraptor]

5. Those pictures of his face look like Bush after the pretzel incident.

Zarqi clearly looks as if he's been beaten, not bombed. In fact that huge one on the face looks like a rifle butt mark, but I'm no expert.

[niallmac]

50. I'm no Quincy either but if you told me this guy

had be ass whooped all over his head I'd have to believe it.

[mom cat]

53. My first take on the picture was also :rifle butt to the cheek.

Dead men can't talk.

[cool user name]

10. Cool picture ...

I'm quite fond of Howard Zinn.

As to the story, it's mere speculation but I wouldn't doubt it if it were true - which actually makes it pretty damned sad instead of just your average ordinary everyday sad.

[Vidar]

4. Seems plausible.

[Philosoraptor]

6. One might infer that he was executed without trial.

At first they said he was killed outright by the bombs, then the next day, that he survived and mumbled something, today witnesses say he was wrapped in a robe and beaten by U.S. soldiers. 3 days, 3 different versions.

[Igel]

23. Witness, so far.

Let's wait for people there to invent and observe facts, we don't need to do it here.

One anonymous witness.

[Philosoraptor]

25. We'd definitely believe a G.I. before we'd believe an Arab witness.

I'm not doing anything here, just sharing the news I found this morning.

[Skeptor]

8. And miss interrogating him for information? How dumb would they have to

be? Or, how incompetent would their commander have to be to fail to issue an "alive if possible" order?

[Philosoraptor]

9. A suspicious person might wonder if he was silenced.

Not me of course.

[liberal N proud]

11. I was wondering similar thoughts

2 500 bombs reduced a house to rubble killing instantly all inside except Zarqawi. Zarqawi was initially reported as killed in the house bombing.
Later the story came out that he was alive after the bombing and was able to struggle free from a stretcher. But dies very quickly after being restrained on the stretcher.
Oh it has also been reported that everyone else killed in the house was there for a "high level" al-queda meeting.

There is just too much of the story that doesn't add up.

If he was meeting with all these other people who died instantly when the bombs were dropped, how did he survive?
Secondly, if he was able to struggle free from the stretcher, what happened that he died so quickly after being restrained as they have reported?

My skepticism of the bu$h regime and their history of lies and more lies leaves me with a bad taste on this one as well.

[cool user name]

13. Agreed ...

It could be possible that the initial story is true but the "credibility issues" with this administration lend more and more to alternate versions of what just might have happened no matter the event.

[Philosoraptor]

14. They have been known to stretch and hide the truth.

Let's face it, no wonder we have to re-examine every news story.

[cool user name]

16. It's kind of unfortunate:

However it is our responsibility to be kept on our toes, I suppose?

[Pavulon]

12. I would put my

money on the half ton of explosives. Bet he bled out from a liver or similar injury.

[cool user name]

15. His face ...

Was pretty swollen and nose looked broken.

I'm not an expert on fatal injuries but as a previous poster said, things just don't add up.

[dogday]

17. Why was his tongue so swollen?

His face was swollen,despite lack of trauma, so was his tongue..

[CoffeeCat]

19. Why does this Administration have to lie about....

....EVERYTHING!

I'm so frickin sick of it.

I didn't expect to have to don my tin-foil hate, regarding the Zarqawi situation. We bombed him. He died. Period. End of story, right?

Then, I started listening to the military guy doing the press conferences. Their story has various versions and he seems baffled by what he's being forced to say. First, they arrived on the scene and he was dead. Then, it changed. They arrived on the scene and he was still alive.

How does one screw up THAT MAJOR FACT? How does a man escape 2 500-pounds bombs, intact and with only a scratch on his face? Either you're converted to matchsticks or not. No one survives a bomb blast like that with a mere scratch on his face. This stuff does not add up. I'm sooooo weary of EVERYTHING in this administration not adding up.

These people lie about every damn thing. They lie because it makes them feel alive. They lie because they're such incompetent thugs--that they have to bury the truth about themselves and their actions.

I'm just so sick of it. So sick of being spoon-fed inane versions of stories that are blatantly false. I'm so sick of them assuming that I am an idiot object, just waiting to be injected with their daily dose of bullshit.

I can't stand that our leaders are pieces of shit.

[Philosoraptor]

20. Lying is more profitable I guess.

They lied to get everything, why stop lying now?

[Pachamama]

40. See my theory at Post #32....I completely agree with you!

:grr:

[sidwill]

21. Who cares how he met his maker

Ultimately Zarqawi has killed innocents, he recieved his just deserts.

As for Bush, giving Bush credit for getting this one cockroach will be fleeting as it dawns upon everyone that his death won't amount to a hill of beans in the clusterfuck that is the failed Iraq adventure.

[Philosoraptor]

22. It'd just be nice to hear a truthful account of ANYTHING from them.

I'm glad he's dead, that goes without saying, and I don't care if he was eaten by hogs, I just hate hearing the official story, then 18 different versions of it in the following weeks.

[KoKo]

35. When we stop caring about the "rule of law" in conduct of battle then we

become no better than the suicide bombers and thugs that we are supposed to be trying to convert to Democracy?

When we disregard laws in our own country we become no better than thugs who do whatever they want in third world countries. The same countries we are trying to show the wonders of our American Political and Legal System...

:shrug:

[Canuckistanian]

24. When they first bombed him..

No, wait, it was helicopters. No! It was a bomb. No, TWO bombs. Well, anyways when he died in the bombing... no, wait, he didn't die right away... they carried him away in a gurney. Then he tried to escape. And THEN he died. Of his wounds from the bombing.

Now you're telling me he was beaten to death?

Alright, that makes sense. :crazy:

Just like the rest of the story.

[Philosoraptor]

28. Everyone believed the Jessica Lynch story for weeks,

...and the Pat Tillman story, and the WMD story, and the uranium yellow cake story, and the Osama story, and the Zarqawi story.

Some still believe the Warren Commission story.

[Canuckistanian]

29. Hell, I still remember The Maine

The Spanish bastards....

[Philosoraptor]

30. & how about that wacky J. Edgar Hoover rumor, with the Ball Gowns

Crazy huh?

[Canuckistanian]

31. Rubbish. But, funny how he never married.

But what a great humanitarian. He would take in poor homeless boys into his house at all hours of the night.

And sailors. Sometimes, he would actually go down to the docks to look for homeless sailors to take in.

A great man.

[Philosoraptor]

33. All the while fighting gangsters & blackmailing homosexuals.

Worked for 7 presidents!

[Laughing Mirror]

38. Has anybody ever posted that picture on the internet?

The one of the lovely J Edna in gorgeous gown taken at the Plaza Hotel I think. Saw it in a book a few years ago but have never seen it on line.

[Pachamama]

36. Don't forget the cheering Iraqi's in the streets....of Kansas!

:eyes:

[diamondsndust]

54. helicopters?!?!?!

the story I heard on MSNBC said it was an F-16 that bombed him....

i'm sooooooo freaking tired of the lies! :banghead:

[TriSec]

26. Well, I've been wondering....

Why it took not one, but two 500-lb GBUs to take him out? I'm a bit of a WWII buff, and the 500-pounder was the 'standard' bomb in that war. There usually wasn't much left of a target after one of those hit it.

Google "WWII Bomb Damage" for some photos of typical 500-lb bomb damage.... although your mileage may vary.

And he survived the strike?


edited by me: link won't work for some reason.

[The_Casual_Observer]

27. The story keeps changing. Those guys wouldn't pass a small town

police murder investigation.

[Pachamama]

32. I don't believe an effing word this Administration spews!!!!

So, even if its true that this was/is the man known as "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi", and that he is in fact dead, then the reality is that I don't trust a damn word these lying bastards say, and I question any "facts" and background behind it all.

What a sad time we live in....like citizens of the former USSR or other communist eastern bloc nations, the "official gov't story" gets told and the citizens roll their eyes back. That is what has happened here in our country. I don't know many people who do believe anything this government says about anything anymore.

That said, I can tell you my "theory" about the man known as "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi": Whether he is the man born with that name or not is unclear and frankly I don't care. My guess all along has been that just like he suddenely appeared into the spotlight, he has disappeared. Where he came from, and how is the big question. My guess has been that just like Bin Ladin, he has been working with the CIA and US Gov't in some capacity (informant, infiltrator,etc.) and funded and trained by the US somewhere along the line. My guess is that he purposely got spotlighted when this Administration needed to have the focus taken off Bin Ladin and some nemesis created for the War on Iraq and to explain things when they started going terribly bad. I actually became convinced of this when the "Zarqawi video" of him not knowing how to shoot a gun came out and he was standing there wearing new sneakers. My guess is that he does know how to shoot a gun and that video was a total set-up to make the man known as "Zarqawi" to look like a horses ass so that we could all laugh at him and that any Iraqi or Muslim trying to follow him would be shamed as to the fact that he was a loser and not a leader. I saw the images of the house that got destroyed and heard the reports that Zarqawi was still talking and alive when he was taken away on a stretcher and then "died" later. Maybe he is dead. But there are amazing makeup and special effects that can make anyone look dead and beaten. Maybe he is somewhere getting reconstructive surgery for his next "mission" and getting all new papers and identity. And maybe he was shot and killed or beaten to death in his final hour. My theory of him being on the payroll still stands even if he is dead. Everyone to this Administration is expendible. And if Zarqawi was working for the US all along and being put out their as the big bad Boogieman terrorist responsible for it all, its possible that in the very end, they killed him when he was more valuable to them than alive.

Wasn't it so convenient in week where so much is going wrong with the economy, the War in Iraq etc. and as we approach the 2,500 mark, that the story that could suddenely come out and make them look like the US's strategy on the War on Terror is working?

Once again whether its true or not that he is dead, I don't believe a friggin word these lying bastards say anymore and even if he is dead, I don't buy and never did buy the official story of the man who seemed to come out of nowhere....

[Philosoraptor]

34. If they said it was Saturday I wouldn't believe them.

[mopinko]

37. passive voice to the rescue- he died

i noticed immediately in the "revised" news stories that they were employing their favorite device- the passive voice- he died. i knew right away that there was more to it, and they didn't want to say.
getting to be like the ussr around here. gotta read between the lines.

[The Magistrate]

39. One Thing Worth Remembering, Mt. Raptor

All sides in a war lie, each trying to make its foe look worse and itself look better. There is no particular reason to take seriously much of the detail anyone proffers, particularly in the early stages of a matter.

No side is going to openly report its soldiery beat a dying man, or kicked at a dead body, though such acts are well within the repertory of angry young men, as anyone who has ever been involved in combat will testify. No side is going to scruple at claiming its opponent's soldiery behaved in a beastly fashion, whether they actually did or no. There is no more reason to believe this man than there is to believe a Pentagon spokesman. If he actually lived near the target, as he would have just about had to in order to see what he claims he saw, it is a fair assumption that his sympathies lie more with those in the house than otherwise. At minimum he must have been aware of odd comings and goings at the place, and kept his mouth shut about them: like "drug houses" in a tough city neighborhood, "safe houses" in a village or town are secret only from the police, not from the neighbors, who will know perfectly well something is going on, and say nothing, whether from fear or affection, or for pay.

It seems worth noting, too, that the pattern of skepticism changes as much as the official reports and ancilliary accounts do. Initial disbelief was focussed on the idea that no one could have survived the detonation of the bombs. Now it seems focused on what occured on the arrival of U.S. personnel after the bombs. Obviously, if the man was beaten to death by the soldiers, he must have survived the explosions. This self-proclaimed witness does not report the soldiers brought the man with them, after all, and if he saw what he says he saw, would have seen that had it occured. Of course, it remains possible his account is a complete fabrication.

Several things seem fairly clear in the matter. The man photographed probably did survive the blast: though not the most likely outcome, it is certainly a possible one. Explosions are whimsical in their effects. The lethal injuries were inflicted by the concussion of the explosions, which does great damage to internal organs and tissues without leaving much outward mark: it is, essentially, a tremendous blow struck by something heavy and soft to the entire body. It will produce swelling from fluids from ruptured tissues and internal bleeding. The few small marks on the face are quite consistent with having been tumbled inert to a rocky surface; a drunk who has stumbled and fallen to the pavement often gives a fair replication of a man who has been punched several times in the face. The corpse was cleaned up a bit before the photographs were taken; that is a normal enough thing, and probably motivated by a desire to have the features show clear, rather than be obscured by gore and grime. One was certainly seems to have been taken on the stretcher, the other may have been posed to some degree, either with the body lain again in the rubble, or perhaps propped against a scrap of wall, but may have been taken on a slab in some medical facility the corpse was brought to. It is not a very important point.

[KoKo]

46. What's interesting is why CBS would post this on their website. Just a

few months ago, they would have accepted the Pentagon's story...(even as changeable as it's been) as the "truth." For years we've been told by the MSM to accept differing accounts of every incident either at home or in our "WAR" as the official truth.

So...while I thought your description was a good one and rational minds could understand the truth of what you say...the incredible changing of stories by the Pentagon is worrysome. Coming on the heels of the reports about Haditha..one might be more disposed to give a little more credence to the report of the neighbor who says he saw a man being beaten. And that might be the motivation of the man to not tell the truth so as to implicate our troops...or that by telling the truth there are folks in the US who will now take him seriously. :shrug:

BTW: when I read of the alleged beating from this CBS report...I had visions of your socks with wet sand metaphor from another post yesterday.

[The Magistrate]

48. That Main-Line Sources Have Picked This Up, Ma'am

We may account as progress of a kind, eh?

One good reason for it would be the Haditha massacres, in which it is pretty clear the truth is a good deal closer to the accounts of the native witnesses than to the intitial cover-up reports. This, capping a number of other incidents over the years, may have tipped some journalists to the understanding that credible accounts at variance with an official tale may well be out there, and deserve circulation. Another factor may be the reports the administration is seriously intending to pursue criminal charges against persons who wrote stories awarded prestigious journalism prizes for exposing illegal activities by the governmment. That has got to provoke a certain reaction in many a journalist.

It would not surprise me at all if the man were kicked about some, though it seems pretty clear the lethal injuries had already been inflicted. A certain amount of variance in accounts, both from seperate sources, and as time passes, do not trouble me much, though. My abiding interest in history has led me to research a number of obscure matters, going back to the most primary sources available relating to them, and there are always great discrepancies in accounts, with the most immediate reports in newspapers generally being the poorest match with what emerges as the most likely synthesis of the available materials. Sometimes it is deliberate, but most often it seems the product of confusion and the chaotic nature of events, and the differences in individual perspectives.

"If your mother says she loves you, check it out."

[Asgaya Dihi]

41. Can't blame anyone for having doubts

As much as we've been lied to in the past it's to be expected we'll doubt about anything they say. I don't know if we have a straight story somewhere under the shifting versions or not, I am glad he's dead though. Assuming he is the one who did or ordered the beheadings I might have taken the shot myself if I could have. I do have trouble believing that we've got the whole story though.

As for why he'd survive and others not, I have no clue. If he was inside it doesn't make a lot of sense, if he was outside it might. People asked why he'd be so bruised and die after the fact rather than in the blast, concussion might explain that. It isn't always the shrapnel that kills, it's sometimes the shock-wave. Consider it an all over body bruise, if severe enough it damages internal organs as well. That would give us the bruised appearance and the late death. Then again maybe soldiers did beat him, can't rule that out either. As many times as we've seen stories change I'm not sure we'll ever get a real explanation rather than a likely or possible one.

[OETKB]

42. The Scary Part

If the posts above is speculation from 7000 miles away I can't imagine how this is playing in Iraq. His killing falls into the revenge mode of this society and quite frankly our own and can only soldify the resolve of the dividing lethal elements in that country. Hold on to your hats, it's going to be a rough ride.

[Pachamama]

43. Agreed....

We have been talking above about the facts and circumstances around his "death", but the reality is what effects its having in Iraq and in that arena. Your right about the rough ride coming - we all need to hold onto our hats. :hi:

[librechik]

44. Oh, it's more tinfoil from CBS/AP

seriously.

[Pachamama]

47. More like "Psyops Propaganda"....

Did you catch this little bit in the CBS/AP story:

"The debris included a skimpy slip in a leopard skin pattern and other see-through pieces of women's clothing. In the crater itself were charred dresses, torn blankets, thin sponge mattresses and pillows."

Who is this directed towards? To infuriate the Muslims and point out that Zarqawi was spending time with a muslim woman who would wear such things? And/or to show Americans what "those Muslims do"? Both?

Like I said in my earlier posts like #32, I don't believe anything that comes out of this administration (or the media that serves them). Its all propaganda and I don't believe we get any straight story anymore.

[The Magistrate]

49. In The Privacy Of The Home, Ma'am, And Company Of The Husband Alone

Such attire is quite common, among even the nmost devout. Such a thing would not trouble Moslems in the least: he was in some family's home, after all. He would not have seen the wife and mother so attired.

[Pachamama]

51. I don't disagree that this may have been "the wife's" in the privacy of

their home, however I still think such "detail" is for a purpose. The writer of the story could have just as easily stated that women's lingerie was seen strewn about. Details such as "see-thru" or leopard pattern seem like TMI and not necessary for the story, unless of course that was intentionally being added for a purpose of conveying what I said it was to do....

[The Magistrate]

52. Thay Are Striking Details, Ma'am

That is what writers go for; the little touch of color that catches the eye and focuses the imagination, and so makes the scene live through the words.

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

[w4rma]

45. If they did or didn't, what would change one way or another? (nt)

[SPKrazy]

55. I Could See That

given that he's allegedly the mastermind behind the insurgency and IED's.

Now it appears that he was probably just one of the leaders of some insurgents in Iraq, but he's the one that has been on the military's radar.

I bet they beat the shit out of him.

Considering they all probably knew fellow soldiers that had been killed by IED's.

Might have done the same myself.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SPKrazy]

57. Truth Is The First Casualty Of War

and whether it's been declared or not, we have a war pResident and everything he says is a lie because of that I guess.

[wizdum]

58. Great post. I agree. There is a detailed commentary about this matter...

...posted on my blog if you would like to read what I think is really behind the curious timing of this big "announcement".

[Ghost Dog]

59. Worth xlinking to this later thread (ambulance appears on scene):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1400911