"What if it turns out to be true"?

[salinen]

I'm not trying to pick on anyone here. In another thread someone said this in regards to the Haditha massacre. They were referring to the possibility that the republican version may be true. Well that would be the Military (and the White House) assessment of what happened.

In other words, the truth is dead. Ever notice that the guest experts on talking news shows are all being attacked by the conservative host? This always illicits in my mind that the host must be a leading expert on EVERYTHING! O'reilly is a great
example of this hogwashery.

Truth: an archaic form of communication once used in the United States.

[BlooInBloo]

1. Great. We now give concern-troll topics their own threads... Genius.

[MissWaverly]

2. No, because the Iraqis are not buying it

they have eyewitnesses, and they have no spin machine over there, only grim reality

[Bucky]

9. Of course they have a spin machine over there. We didn't invent lies

We just made them better. Actually, the Bushies in many respect went back to old fashioned lies--just make shit up and worry less about the spin. But truth is a casualty in war not because only one side is out to kill it. Everyone in war tries to spin things. There's really no good vs evil over there. Just tragedies piled up on top of lies piled up on top of more tragedies. That and the survivors who now hate us.

[MissWaverly]

13. that and the survivors who now hate us

how could we have messed this up so badly?????

[Bucky]

15. Define "messed up." Then define "we." Then cry.

I believe as a citizen in a democracy that I carry a moral responsibility for everything that my country does. When the country does wrong, I carry a moral responsibility to help fix it. Obviously the harms caused by a war I vigorously opposed causes me to question this sence of responsibility. If you drive a car off a cliff while I'm screaming at you "don't drive off that cliff!" I rightly think I'm not to blame.

But democracy is different. The military might of the United States is a pit bull, a rottweiler. I own it because I have the right to vote. If the dog gets off its leash and bites the neighbor's kid, it doesn't matter how loudly I screamed "Sit, boy! Halt!" It's my dog and I owe the neighbors restitution for their trip to the emergency room. If the kid is killed, there of course can be no real restitution.

For some Americans, Iraq is anything but messed up. If you make money off of the drilling and export of oil from Iraq and you can get away with sending employees over there and don't need to do the traveling yourself, then the war has been rather a success. If you own Halliburton stock and none of your neighbors have relatives in the military, it's been a smashing success. I guess they don't feel the same sense of responsibility as I do.

Frankly, I'm dumbfounded by it all. I don't get how some people can turn off their humanity like many have. But when I think about what's going on there, what it means for families living in that hell hole my tax dollars have paid to create, I can certainly understand the motivation to at least try and escape awareness of the costs.

[MissWaverly]

16. messed up = 1400 Iraqis killed in Baghdad in May, 06*

can we even imagine this, no electricity, no security, little food and endless violence, these
people are living in a war that they did nothing to cause. As to the we, I don't know the
answer to that question. I voted for Gore in 2000, I tried to vote in 04 but my machine
was rigged to vote Republican. Is this war then the fault of rigged machines & those who rigged them I don't know. I find that the POTUS, SCOTUS and the Congress of this country, do not speak for me on anything from Global Warming to this obscene war. God help us all.

*I heard this fact on the the News Hour with Jim Lehrer, Mark Shields stated it in the political
wrap up on tonight's show.

[InkAddict]

24. That "hell hole" is coming to a city near you

as * and Congress keep funding both the war and possibly the "insurgents." Our economy cannot long endure this and the future infrastuctures of our government (the Constitution) and our States will crumble until the Chinese allow us to rebuild (at least the roads and bridges).

[Stand and Fight]

3. You really, really need to be a bit more clear in your post.

You seem to be saying that the Republicans may be right that there was no masacre, and that by default Democrats like Murtha who persist that the contrary is true are lying. I ardently hope that there has been a miscommunication. Also -- I understand that you are asking a question in the subject line, but you're also making some strong statements in the body of your post. Please do clarify. :D

[salinen]

8. So sorry

I'm trying not to demonize someone who sounds afraid. They were afraid that the republican version of those events may turn out to be what actually happened. To me, the republican version of anything is horseshit. But then I went into a diatribe about truth. You caught me being A.D.D.

[EST]

4. There is ample evidence that republicans are inveterate liars,

especially when a claim to responsibility is sorely needed. This "incident" is no exception.

The real point is that democrats, in the face of truth, embrace truth.
Even if one of us has been living in a self congratulatory comfort of false hopes, usually that person can be depended on to apply a little introspection, discover the illusion, accept responsibility, make the needed adjustments, and embrace the truth. That is "what if!"

[salinen]

7. Did you say "invertabrates"?

haha

[EST]

26. (Chortle!)

Yeah, that too. Inveterate invertebrates, perhaps.

[porphyrian]

5. On Truth

Truth is relative to the individual. It's not so much dead today as it is consciously manipulated at almost every turn. What most people consider to be the truth is really just a consensus based upon limited perceptions and past experience. To a large extent, perception defines our reality. The options and hurdles we believe we have are real for the purposes of our decision making, and our actions are made accordingly. Governments and advertisers know this and use it to sway public opinion (the "truth") in a myriad of ways, from rallying us behind an illegal war to convincing us that we are so fat and ugly that only their brand of beauty products can save us. If there is a single universal truth, chances are none of us will ever know it, at least not in our lifetime.

[salinen]

10. Truth is the sense that

the purponderence of evidence leads to a certain conclusion. This conclusion must stand alone without personality or persuasion. If truth is so elusive, we'd be in big trouble.

[porphyrian]

12. It is and we are, though not for that reason.

Can you answer the question "What is the truth?"

We don't need to know what the universal truth is, if it even exists, to live our lives. We don't even have to agree on it. Are the telepathically-controlled squirrels who can kill with microwaves any less real or "true" to the schizophrenic who believes in them, even though the "purponderence of evidence" leads most of us to believe they aren't? What if the majority of us simply lack the perception and insight to see this about those squirrels, and they really are telepathic assassins, effectively hidden from us by some shadow conspiracy?

Truth cannot stand without personality or persuation, because we cannot experience it except through the filter of our limited, imperfect perceptions as interpreted by our even-less-perfect minds.

[salinen]

14. This is philosophy

I see red, you see green. But one can analyse the colors scientifically. Red has properties that green doesn't. There are universal truths. Gravity for instance. If someone tries to argue that gravity isn't what's holding us down, I move along.

[porphyrian]

17. They aren't really mutually exclusive.

We believe in gravity because all the evidence we have right now points to its existance. However, that was once true for the world being flat, the planets rotating around the earth and that gravity could never be countered enough to enable us to set foot on the moon.

We are incapable of knowing the truth, if a single one exists, even now due to our limitations. With every scientific advancement, we find more questions about it than answers. I'm not saying we can't have something that most of us agree is "the truth" for now, just that this isn't really truth in the universal sense, thus it's subject to change.

Edit: word substitution for clarity

[salinen]

19. Look at your own words

You say that because Man is a limited creature, any and all truth eludes him. That's fairly absolute, don't you think? Landing spacecraft on other planet's moons and sampling the soil takes real physics. Otherwise we'd continue to chip flint for the purpose of Mastadon hunting.

[porphyrian]

20. OK, I did, and the problem is you don't understand them.

I didn't say that "any and all truth eludes" us, I said that truth is relative to the individual and that we have yet to fully perceive or understand any universal truth, if one exists at all.

And I doubt we'd be chipping flint for mastadon hunting today, as there don't seem to be any in existance.

[salinen]

23. I guess this proves

that we must be atheists.

[JuniperLea]

6. One out of two non-snark answers!

What are the odds?

:shrug:


I understood your post perfectly, and further, I don't think it's a waste of thread either.

I don't think truth in and of itself is dead. I'd say 90% of the people here demand it, whether they recognize it once presented is another issue altogether.

I have no doubt that this administration mixes lies with truth all the time. That being said, they have cried wolf too many times. I don't believe a damn thing they say.

[rucky]

11. The crime of the higher-ups is that they've thrown away the public trust.

as payback, they will be blamed for everything. most of it, rightfully so.

that's what they get for lying to us ALL THE TIME>

even if they tell the truth once in a blue moon (which I don't think is the case, here, either).

[Virginia Dare]

18. If it turns out to be true...

I'll eat my hat AND my shorts...

;-)

[genie_weenie]

21. There is no such thing as absolute truth.

Since there is no final arbiter who can replay the events in perfection for a human's satisfaction, no retelling of an event even one recorded and witnessed by hundreds can be known as absolutely true.

[salinen]

22. This is much simpler

By saying the truth is dead, is that the way we receive information is based on almost everything to the contrary of the best possible knowledge of the event. Who benefits from reporting a certain way is what drives all information anymore. So, yes, there can never be an absolute truth, but to endevor to approach truth is a worthwhile cause.

[genie_weenie]

25. Many men long ago learned

it is more profitable to claim to speak the truth and do the exact opposite. Always appear virtuous even when you are at your most base and cruel...