I'm sick of DUers who crap on other DUers for voicing hopelessness.

[Cyrano]

Every single day on DU, I see posts about how the thugs are going to steal it again this November, and why it is so hard, if not impossible to stop. I've done similar posts over the last year.

Whenever a post like this appears, the flamers come out of the woodworks to spit on and shred the original poster. Terms like "coward," "traitor," "Why don't you move to Canada?" "Your attitude is only helping the freepers," etc., appear by the dozens.

But what is rarely offered up by these flamers are solutions to the problems posed by the original poster. Occasionally, someone will come up with a really good idea which gets lost in a shit storm of flamer criticism.

So I'll tell you what. How about if we try to make this a thread of positive suggestions on how to counter the fascists we're fighting? And at the same time, how about ignoring any flamer on this thread who offers nothing but a way to tell us to "fuck off" while cleverly avoiding breaking DU rules and hiding behind anonymity.

So let me again make the question crystal clear: How do we stop them from stealing it again this November?

[Hugin]

1. Everybody vote... and insist on staying until it's counted.

No law against that.

[Trillo]

2. It's a basic manipulation ploy

to make the one with the mindset of hopelessness more malleable.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Watch the polls for a start

Document any evidence of stealing the election, and immediately file on it-don't accept the outcome of any election where this has happened.

[in_cog_ni_to]

4. Get rid of the damn evoting machines.

We all know that's NOT going to happen because the Democrats are ignoring the issue. They don't want to look like whiners, cry babies and sore losers.

[90-percent]

5. far from hopeless

Most American's agree with us. We just have to fight the good fight and beat these greedy morons.

Never, never give in to these facists!

-85% Jimmy

[Cyrano]

24. And your suggestion for overcoming rigged elections is ...?

[jwirr]

34. Would we have the votes to get rid of them if we did act? We are

the minority. However, it should be placed on the floor.

[in_cog_ni_to]

48. There's MORE THAN ENOUGH EVIDENCE that PROVES corruption

in the elections and evoting machines. Kennedy is filing lawsuits in the next couple of weeks, on people who were involved in the corruption and election thefts.

[Joe Chi Minh]

92. Silence came the stern reply from our friend.

[Toots]

6. Divide and Conquer

Appears it works..

[Cyrano]

26. And your suggestions for overcoming rigged elections is ...?

[Bandit]

60. Throw the machines in the bay

A modern day Boston Tea Party only with voting machines. Pencil and paper has worked well for most of our existance.

[StellaBlue]

74. I'll do it

I liked it when the Nader supporters in Boston threw a bunch of TVs into the Bay in 2000.

[dogday]

81. I have only two words for the e-voting machines

Big Magnets!!!!

[NV Whino]

7. The voting machines are the key

Unless we can provide a verifiable paper ballot, we can't win or just plain have fair elections. I think, in the amount of time we have, the only solution is to return to hand-marked and hand-counted paper ballots. So it takes a few days to tally the votes. We done it before, we can do it again. We really don't need to know the results of an election at 8:01 P.M.

Secondarily, people must be motivated to get out and vote. I think guaranteeing that their vote will be counted accurately will help that.

[Asgaya Dihi]

8. Stop fighting the last election and worry about the next one.

I'm as pissed as anyone that the last election was stolen but we seem to be hurting ourselves again over it. Even if we do prove every accusation beyond question there's no provision in the law to change the election results anyway. What we'd end up with is little more than a few lower level players prosecuted if we're lucky. I want that too, but not at the cost of the next one.

While we worry so much with that and argue over an article about the last election we hardly talk about a BIG problem with the next one. Remember that Black Box Voting report? The machines we'll use for NEXT election are so insecure that they can be hacked with 5 minutes of access and leave no trace that anyone was ever there. The hack is persistent, it doesn't go away from election to election so all they have to do is reach a given machine once and it's theirs. No password, no CRC checks, no nothing, it's all wide open to the point where you can even install software that's so flawed it wouldn't run and the machines won't blink at it.

The next election is wide open to theft, theft without a trace that can't be proved or recounted. The last one can't be changed. We might want to get our priorities in order, this is some scary stuff and our future, not the past. We've got to get this into the press more and get it fixed. http://www.blackboxvoting.org/BBVtsxstudy.pdf

[jwirr]

41. I think that evidence from the last election would go a long way

to getting a bill passed to get rid of the voting machines. Howard Dean is suggesting a certain kind of machine and one of the things we can do is contact the person in charge of our own state to ask that they use this machine if they must have a machine. The decision on how we vote is made at the state level.

[Asgaya Dihi]

49. It would

The biggest concern I have is that too many don't even seem aware that the Black Box report is something new, it gets confused with the debate over the last one. It's a different though related issue and a pretty solid one that we should be able to make progress on without partisan bickering if we separated it from the last one. I've pretty well killed partisan fights over the last one on other boards and had both sides saying this doesn't look right.

If we could prove the last one well enough to convince anyone who isn't already a believer, yeah, that would help. If the new problem just gets lost in the old one though it hurts.

[jpevahouse]

9. Last election

I read this same complaint over and over about posters being too negative. Most of what they said about Kerry and the Democratic Party turned out to be true. What if their complaints had been taken more seriously?

[Exultant Democracy]

62. What good would it have done?

No one who thinks that they are sure to lose ever wins.

[tabasco]

63. Fighting the culture war on the internet, eh?

Get your ass to Iraq, hypocrite.


www.goarmy.com

[meisje]

10. What a loser!

am I

[Cyrano]

28. And your suggestion for overcoming rigged elections is ...?

[Armstead]

11. It bothers me when used as an all-purpose excuse for real defeats

Although I don't flame people who say that, I am critical of that attitude of blaming everything on voter fraud.

Voting has always had crooked elements to it. Voter fraud is nothing new, and you could probably find irregularities in any election and any location in history.....What I get upset with is using that as an excuse for avoiding responsibility for losing elections.The fact is that the real problem is the lack of a real message that would enable our side to chalk up solid enough victories to prevent the GOP from successfully gaming the system and indulging in those shenanagins on the margins.

Having said that, here's the other half. Those who raise warnings about modern elections and the use of audit-proof technoloigy have a very valid point.

How to solve it? One way is real obvious. The Democrtic Ledership should take the led in fighting aginst the increasing "privitization" of balloting, and also press hard to make sure that any new technologies are open and as foolproof as possible, and have paper vote recipts as a back-up system for recounts.

Actually, it should be a bi-partiosanm issue. Democrats should work to recruit honest republicans to also press for a system that ensures honest balloting and counting.

[Philosoraptor]

14. "The Democratic Leadership should take the lead", we'll all die waiting

[Armstead]

17. Perhaps

I agree with you on that. But it's up to the population to either force them to act or fire them. It's the same on this as evereything else.

The fault, Dear Brutus is not in our stars, but in ourselves...

[Philosoraptor]

12. There's a tendency to remain stalwart & optimistic, but about what?

They have every single angle covered, they have circumvented all the laws until they are meaningless, I'd LOVE to have something to hang optimism on.

[skipos]

13. We did really well in 05 (VA, NJ, CA) and we can do well in 06.

How do we win in November? This is what I do...
1. In the primary, support good candidates that have a good shot at winning the general election. (Dems did that last might in Montana and Iowa.)
2. In the general election, support them and work for them as much as you can afford to do

[bryant69]

15. I'm sorry your feelings have been bruised

I will say that many of the posts by people who preach doom have a worldview that makes it hard to respond to constructively.

If one side believes the media to be monolithically anti Democrat and anti liberal and will continue to be so and the other believes that the media is flaws and pro-corporation, but possible to work with, well the strategies are going to be differnt.

If one side believes that voting fraud can be prevented or minimized and the other believes that the Republicans are in place to steal any election they want and we can't stop them, again, I don't know how you bridge that gulf.

I suspect some of the prophets of doom believe we should abandon traditional methods of engaging the system in favor of some pipedream general strike or revolution.

I apoligize if I have offended you in advance.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Cyrano]

23. And your suggestion for overcoming rigged elections is ...?

[bryant69]

29. I can't really claim to be an expert on the issue

In the long term it strikes me that the key necessity is a clear and accessible paper trail. I'm not sure counting by hand is the solution (although I recognize many people disagree with me).

In the short term closer monitoring of local election boards and organizations - being at the poll places, maybe even volunteering. That won't solve the problem, but may enable collecting better infromation than we have on the 2004 election.

Don't you think it's a wee bit disingenious to pretend that these prophets of doom are really crying out for solutions? I've read a lot of those posts and responded to them (and not in an approving way). I apoligize if this question upsets you.

Bryant

[Cyrano]

31. Thanks for the suggestion. Don't worry about upsetting me.

[BlooInBloo]

16. I'm FAR more sick of the hopeless people...

... who ALWAYS crap on EVERY hopeful thread they can find. Assholes.

[peace13]

19. Excuse me but are you crapping on this one?

[BlooInBloo]

20. If I am, it's not on the grounds of hopelessness! (grin)

[peace13]

22. Thanks for the laugh!

[Cyrano]

30. And your suggestion for overcoming rigged elections is ...?

[BlooInBloo]

33. Dumbest implication EVER: either solve rigged elections, or be hopeless...

sheesh.

[Cyrano]

35. A beautiful distortion of the original post. But thanks for your thoughts.

[Joe Chi Minh]

76. Nothing distorted about it at all! How about some suggestions

from YOU and your colleagues? What were you hoping to elicit from readers? What sort of a crummy way to carry on is it to post a negative, despondent post, while offering no suggestion of a solution, nor any invitation to others, (until now) to do so?

Every single day there are innumerable posts in which DUers analyse what's going on, for positive as well as negative indicators; vehement criticisms of inert or just allegedly inert politicians; interpret the implications of the latest publications of prosecutors concerning the prosecution of many Republican politicians, commenting on the likelihood of their conviction and what others of their felonious confreres they are likely to bubble and bring down with them, to save their skins, at least, to some extent; possible impeachments of Bush and co, the merits and demerits of the chronology of prosecuting their impeachments; heroes of democracy such as Boniface, Madson, et al are identified and their roles and writings adumbrated or referenced. Generally, DUers provide such information and criticism as conduce to aggravate Bush's unpopularity. So many things. There's an activists' thread, I believe, on here, as well.

However, it seems likely that the criminal prosecutions of so many leading Neocons is going to contribute massively to what ensues in terms of the upcoming elections and everything else.

[Cyrano]

88. Dear KCabotDullesMarxIII: Let me congratulate you on your ability to

obfuscate the English language. Having done so, I wish to ask you what you are talking about and your motive for questioning the sincerity of my original post?

In your first paragraph, you imply that I am not seriously trying to elicit solutions. I don't know what you base this on, but if I had solutions, everyone would be hearing them loud and clear. And the part that states I have "colleagues" seems a bit paranoid. Who in the world are these supposed colleagues? Am I the leader of some anti-DU brigade?

You seem to have gone out of your way to distort my original posting. And you've also made use of a pretentious vocabulary to disguise the fact that you have done everything in your power to change and/or distort the subject of stolen elections.

And one more thought. Very few people on the planet outside of William F. Buckley, can comprehend the run-on sentence in your second paragraph.

No doubt you will have a comeback filled with strained, pseudo-elegant verbiage and incomprehensible references. Enjoy. Perhaps you'll get someone to respond, but it won't be me. Or is it "I?"

[Joe Chi Minh]

90. "In your first paragraph, you imply that I am not seriously trying to

elicit solutions. I don't know what you base this on, but if I had solutions, everyone would be hearing them loud and clear."

OK. So your posts were all negative, are puzzled at other DUers' criticisms, but nevertheless have just now decided there could be answers:

"So I'll tell you what. How about if we try to make this a thread of positive suggestions." (We? I thought you were banjaxed).

Well, funny enough, that's what the all the posters you decry do all the time. Try to make a positive contribution. They're not all specific suggestions, but as my final paragraph in my previous post indicated (if I'd known English wasn't your first language I'd have simplified it), they all contribute to the push for a return to democratic government.

Want to join in, instead of making jejune* requests for pat answers?

[Mr_Spock]

72. It's ridiculous in here today - I'm gonna go to my hobby forums

The doom and gloomers are in full force today.

I'll be back later this week...

[BlooInBloo]

98. LOL! Have fun! We'll hold the fort for ya!

[Mr_Spock]

71. Tell me about it

Nothing like a cold pile of shit thrown on the optimists.

[mdmc]

18. most dems don't think it is all that bad

:shrug:
The DLC would never state that elections are stolen.

[ProfessorGAC]

21. Well, I Don't Broach Surrender Very Well

As an MS sufferer for over 11 years, i figure if i can keep up the fight, so can everyone else. Surrender is not, nor should it be, an option.

That being said, i've never crapped on anybody for voicing hoplessness. But, it sure doesn't engender sympathy, empathy or respect.
The Professor

[Cyrano]

38. But the original question was, what are your suggestions?

[ProfessorGAC]

43. I Just Told You

No matter the circumstances, keep fighting the fight.

Don't be nice! Tell people what you think is wrong, no matter the situation or audience. Don't be a coward about the "situation". Don't be afraid to discuss politics and governance.

Canvass. Vote. Write LTTE's and keep pointing out the mistakes, the crimes, the incompetence.

It's only hopeless if you decide to give up hope. Just don't!
The Professor

[savemefromdumbya]

25. For a start , state governments need to get into gear

It would seem that most state governments are asleep when it comes to elections. It should be top of their agenda to provide non fraudulent voting. Also Congress is asleep. How do we wake them up? The answer may be after the Nov elections. I hate to say this but until this voting thing is sorted it will be a clear GOP victory.

Also Democrats need to be unified instead of all over the place and have some strong key issues. The GOP has had the probably the most scandals in history yet they will still win.

[Philosoraptor]

27. I'm afraid they're going to WIN this fall, negatively speaking.

I remember the bitter disappointments of the last few elections, and I'm braced to repeat it.

[savemefromdumbya]

32. If the GOP win with all those scandals and incomptent acts then

It tells you one thing is that Democrats are NOT getting a firm message through to the voters. It would help if people would work all year round not just at election time. When it is too late. Things should be happening NOW! Need to get ads in newspapers, TV now! Get the fliers out and get on the doorstep NOW.

[RethugAssKicker]

36. We need to show on national televison how a machine can

be hacked !... If this is done... we can then force the govt.. to stoop using these machines until they are "fixed"

[Philosoraptor]

39. I believe I did see several shows on how they're hacked, with BEV

Unless my mind is playing tricks on me, like Bev did.

[RethugAssKicker]

42. If thats the case.... and we're able to prove that a Diebold

machine can be hacked... we should then be able to get a judge to ban its use !

[jwirr]

50. Very good idea.

[leveymg]

37. Interesting how much pessimism has risen along with chances of winning

So much fatalism, right at the verge of a great electoral swing away from the Republican Right. Really makes me wonder about the "don't vote, drop out, go underground" kind of posts going up lately.

It's no mystery about who the worst offenders are.

[Cyrano]

44. I admire your optimism. Do you have a suggestion on how

to make it come about?

[leveymg]

56. My contribution is investigative journalism

Just GOOGLE leveymg or Mark G. Levey. There's a lot of room for specialized muckraking. A lot of people seem to read my stuff, based on my GOOGLE rankings on several topics, mostly related to national security law and investigations, specifically, the AIPAC-OSP spy scandal, NSA contractor scandals, the ABLE DANGER surveillance program, US Counter-terrorism, and the Crimes of 9/11.

We're doing what we can.

[Philosoraptor]

40. If you have a low post count, or you say anything negative, you're suspect

[Cyrano]

52. Please reread the original post. There is nothing duplicitous about it.

[leveymg]

59. It's not being negative, per se, that bothers me so much about

your posts. There is a lot of criticism of the Dem Party "leadership" around here, and much of it is well-founded. Then, there are the persistent concerns expressed about the essential integrity of voting in America. Also, well-founded. But, your posts have a different spin. It's almost as if you're raising the subject of rejection of the electoral system so as to bait people -- and shouting that it's time for direct revolutionary action -- to fish around and see who responds to that message of extreme disaffection.

On top of everything else, you don't respond to direct questions and requests for specific anaswers about what sort of programatic and tactical changes you advocate instead of participation in electoral politics.

To my jaundiced eye, you show signs of acting as an agent provocateur.

[zippy890]

64. well put

the term agent provocateur caught my attention

especially this part of the definition, from Wikipedia

~
Agents provocateurs are also used against political opponents. Here, it has been documented that provocateurs deliberately carry out or seek to incite counter-productive and/or ineffective acts, in order to foster public disdain for the group and provide a pretext for aggression;
~

:freak:

hmmmm

patterns emerge

[derby378]

45. Have you seen any of the "GET OFF YOUR ASS" posts I've made?

And believe me, I've made plenty; there's even one in my DU Journal.

It's like Gandhi taking about being the change that you want to see - the Democratic Party is only as good as the people who are willing to join it and participate in it. I've taken the plunge. Now I'm a precinct chair in Dallas, TX, and I'm headed to the state convention this weekend as an alternate delegate. With any luck, I'll be promoted to full delegate, and then I get to roll up my sleeves for some real work.

But it's not that hard to get involved in the Democratic Party on the ground level. I wish more DUers would make a concerted effort to take over the party from the ground up; some have already started, but there's always room for more.

[jwirr]

53. We did that and our candidates are likely to win in the precincts.

I also am going to be a worker at the poles. I think that Moveon.com is also going to do something on this issue. They had a pole to determine priorities and voting honesty was on the list. I voted for it.

[Cyrano]

54. Congratulations, derby. That's great. Every DUer needs to read your post.

[derby378]

75. You're too kind

:toast:

[slackmaster]

46. Snap out of it!

(Holding you by both shoulders, shaking, slapping you in the face.)

So let me again make the question crystal clear: How do we stop them from stealing it again this November?

The solution to pollution is dilution: We need to get more people to get of their duffs and vote. Look at what happened in the CA-50 primary yesterday - No evidence of tampering, low voter turnout, and the pre-election straw polls were largely wrong again.

[laundry_queen]

47. There needs to be

some sort of nation wide voter rights organization with funding of some sort - an organization that gets out the word. Those who belong to the organization can pass out cards and pamphlets to everyone they know - plant the seed in as many people's heads as possible. Maybe try and raise enough money to air TV ads. Have a spokesperson get on some shows. Make it bi-partisan and freak the freepers out that the dems could steal the election.
Fuck, I don't know. Someone has to do SOMETHING!

[bigmonkey]

51. Does anybody know if the League of Women Voters has an e-voting position?

They have a tradition of fairness, and commitment to bipartisanship, and name recognition. Anybody know if they are on board?

[Cyrano]

55. Gotta run some chores but I'll be back in a while and I promise to

answer everyone taking shots at me -- as well as those who have some really great ideas.

[alcibiades_mystery]

58. Wow...both a martyr and a genius

Must be nice.

[Cyrano]

89. Thank you for the complement. I'll cherish it forever.

[alcibiades_mystery]

95. Please do

It would mean so much to me.

[Cyrano]

97. Oh, shucks. Somebody had to make your day.

[alcibiades_mystery]

99. Actually,

the kid did that earlier.

Your recognition is just gravy...as long as I'm not on the "attackers" list. Whew!

[alcibiades_mystery]

57. They didn't steal it last time

So the whole question is moot.

[RagingInMiami]

65. They didn't steal 2004?

[alcibiades_mystery]

73. No

With the exception of the usual shenanigans involving reducing the number of machines and making voting a pain in key Ohio districts, they did not. Unfortunately, the American people chose the Douchebag-in-Chief in 2004, and we're well and truly stuck with him.

[RagingInMiami]

78. It wasn't just Ohio

It was Florida, New Mexico and who knows how many other states. There is no way Bush won Florida by 400,000 votes, like he supposedly did in 2004, when in 2000, he had 538 more votes than Gore when the Supreme Court stepped in.

2004 was stolen. And 2006 will be stolen also if we're not too careful. Why do you think they're compiling such a vast list of personal data from citizens and veterans?

[Sequoia]

61. Last night I was thinking about the recent newbies and posts

and how DU seems to be steering away from important topics and seeing more inane comments and things like you mention. I'm thinking with my tin foil hat it's a bunch of freepers who are trying to undermine this forum.

Don't think we don't know freeps, you're not so clever. Don't look away, I'm talking to you!! Look and post, be nicer.

[Cyrano]

91. Take off the hat. My question is dead serious. How do we stop them from

stealing it again? (And sorry. If you're freeper hunting, I'm about as far to the left as you can get without falling off the edge.)

[Sequoia]

104. Actually, I'm not freeper hunting.

It's just something I've noticed. We are all at our wits end it seems.

[Gregorian]

66. I see several means, both not short term.

In 2003 my very first political post ever was titled "Impeach Bush". And the overwhelming response was, you're nuts, because we don't have the majority. So whatever happened between 2003 and now has made posts like that less irrelevant. And that whatever is, the truth.

The only thing that can stop them from STEALING the election is voter verification (and something else I'm not thinking of, but which one can no doubt find on the election forum).


But the two things that will keep them from getting away with anything are:

-Educated Americans.

-A real media.



I didn't need to post this. I'm a doom and gloom, hopeless kind of posting person. Because the things we are seeing in politics are happy in comparison to what's right behind them. At least Gore is getting part of that information out there. And even as hopeless as I've been, I am seeing a faint twinkle of light that there is a chance of pulling out of the nosedive the human races is in. As of this date, what I'm talking about is unspeakable.

[Cyrano]

93. Regarding your last paragraph.

My original post regarding hopelessness doesn't mean that many of us are hopeless all the time. Unfortunately, I didn't make that clear.

Every one of us, even the gung ho, arm chair, liberal warriors with big mouths have days on which they think it's hopeless. The difference is, they won't admit it. Many of us will.

I was having a down day today, put up this post and asked people to contribute positive suggestions. You've seen many of those along with the ten tons of shit that accompany any posting of this nature.

There are other days on which I'm so up, I think we can change the world through our purity of purpose, our superior morality, and our intellect.

Both are fantasies. Right now we are powerless because we control no branch of govt, media or big business. Ancient Rome believed they were invulnerable. This too shall pass. The shame is that we might not be here to see it. In the meantime, have an ice cream, a pina colada, see a movie, make love and enjoy. The bastards running things haven't left us much else.

[Turn CO Blue]

67. Every single one of us needs to volunteer to work at the precincts

and/or be there to observe all day long. Until after the polls close, and until after the precinct is counted. That'd be a 16+ hour commitment - but we've all go to be willing to do it. We need to formally sign up, and get the training or whatever the district insists upon, in order to be part of the process. If it's too late, then we need to sign up or just be there to "observe".

There are thousands of precincts, and there has to be at least one person "in the know" about DRE and "scam"tronic machines at each one of them.

Here, I've noticed that all the precinct workers are like 90 years old (I'm not really exaggerating), and although I'm sure they are all "sprightly" and capable, I'm also sure they would appreciate more help from people who can read the print without magnifying glasses/trifocals and carry anything heavy.

[Joe Chi Minh]

68. I've got a better idea. How if you and your colleagues come up

with those suggestions, at the same time as you make negative posts? What kind of response ARE you trying to elicit from other DUers? This is evidently the first time you've asked for suggestions to remedy the Republican fraud.

At least, it's gratifying to see that you haven't signed off with a shrugging crestfallen mannikin - after an irredeemably negative post, a sure sign, if ever there was one, of a "stranger" on the board. Like.. 'sadly'..., 'unfortunately'....

[helderheid]

69. Recommended and THANK YOU. I'm voting on a paper absentee ballot

[Deja Q]

70. What we need are proper candidates - WE NOW KNOW THE CRITERIA.

* Loud but calm and collected. No Dean.
* A person who can take Republican criticism and answer it while then putting the question back to the hyporite who has no right to ask it. So sure as hell, Kerry is out.
* A person with charisma. Gore is out.
* Someone who understands the concept of looking at the opposition's catchphrases and values and using them against them. That should be ANY politician.

Easy peasy.

Surely we can find somebody with these simple criteria?!?!

[marions ghost]

79. you could run

Jesus Christ and he'd lose against Diebold and Disenfranchisement.

2006 will tell us a lot about 2008.

[JNelson6563]

77. Let us differentiate

between "voicing hopelessness" and prematurely declaring defeat.

It's one thing to be discouraged from time to time. All we mere mortals do it. It's quite another to announce we have already lost, we may as well give up now.

Julie

[Cyrano]

96. Thanks, Julie. My original post was the result of a bad day of

hopelessness.

There are other days on which I know we're going to trounce these evil bastards and banish them forever.

I get the feeling that you picked up on the fact that I've hit a period of discouragement. This isn't surrender. It's merely a human reaction to the realties we face.

There are days on which I and many other DUers throw up our hands and say, "What the hell, we can't beat these demonic bastards."

But those days pass. What pisses me off are all the great DU "heroes" who claim never to have a day like that and crap on the rest of us. In general, the broader the claim, the smaller the man (or woman).

[JNelson6563]

100. Never give in to despair!

It's ok to experience discouragement, quite natural when one is up against pure evil as we are. But to give in to the temptation of despair is something that must be avoided at all costs!

As far as anyone claiming they never know such days, well that should tell you something. For instance, a person who's never had a bad day "out in the field" hasn't spent any time out there. ;-)

I would suggest, when feelin' like there just ain't no way things could actually change for the better, come onto DU and ask for posters to share recent, positive developments in their area. To read stories from aroudn the country of efforts on behalf of candidates (no matter the race--big or small) or local parties, etc., well that always makes my day. There's a lot of good stuff happening in lots of areas, it's always exciting to learn about it.

Cheer up Cyrano! A new day is coming and you're invited to the victory party! :toast:

Julie

Remember, whether you say you can or you can't, you're probably right. ;-)

[Cyrano]

101. Once again, Julie, thanks. It's happy hour here so that should help.

[rpgamerd00d]

80. I'm sick of DUers who voice hopelessness.

That's a defeatist attitude, and is not how anyone has ever won anything ever.

If we want to win any election anywhere in the country, the hopelessness has to stop.

I can't even fathom how you could start a thread to defend it.

[WI_DEM]

82. Well I'm tired of the voices of gloom shitting on positive election result

like the special election in district 50 in an overwhelmingly republican district where our candidate was also vastly out spent and yet nearly won. "Yes, but she didn't win"--we'll she wasn't expected to win either she was always the underdog.

[stepnw1f]

84. no kidding

let us piss on your wheaties... waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

[tlsmith1963]

83. I Can Understand How They Feel

I have felt that hopelessness myself, plenty of times. But I don't know how to do anything else but fight. How should we fight them? Well, I have seen threads where DUers talk about some conservative they were able to talk some sense into because they were able to use our issues in ways the conservative could personally relate to. Maybe this is what we need to do. The leadership of our party is obviously not doing it. We need to represent our party better than they are.

Tammy

[Individualist]

85. Suggestion re. crappers

Ignore control freaks who insist that everyone share their views/opinions.

[European Socialist]

86. Yup, And when you complain about DINOS --You get "well what are you...

doing Blah Blah Blah". I have high expectations for our Democratic Congress people and have the right to complain when they are Repuke Lite. They saved Social Security--so why can't they act in unison on other issues that are clearly in favor of the average person.

[LoZoccolo]

87. Because DUers are seldom doers.

I'm serious. I post threads asking people to put down what they're doing for 2006 and they get sparsely responded to. This is a political message board, almost every one of us should be involved! If you have time to hang out here for so long you've got time to get over to your local Democratic Party office and get involved, if not several other advocacy groups. I'm sick of people bitching about everything and not doing something. It's purely emotional politics, and it's the kind of thing that makes people vote for third parties and do other stupid stuff which hurts people in the real world.

GET OFF YOUR ASS ALREADY PEOPLE.

It's a vicious cycle. The lazy vegetating and bitching on the Internet leads to hopelessness leads to inaction leads to vegetating and bitching on the Internet.

I think it also leads to noodling about coming up with extreme bullshit opinions like we need to start a revolution or need to let the Republicans win so things get so bad that people turn progressive or we need to start euthanizing Republicans (I have seen all these here). You people threaten to do all that shit yet you won't even go around a neighborhood knocking on doors to get out the vote.

If you're in Illinois, you can get off your ass by visiting http://www.illinoisdemnet.org

We are having meetups next week.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

94. HERE'S THE ULTIMATE "HOPELESSNESS" THANKS TO BUSH....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1374892

[Lexingtonian]

102. Sorry, I'm going to keep on crapping on defeatism

Temporary hopelessness I have sympathy for. Defeatism, no. Chicken Little Syndrome, hell no.

The ex-felon disenfranchisement laws of most states are the legal defect on which a lot of election manipulation and inability to create federal standards/uniformity is built. Do I see even a single self-proclaimed "clean elections" activist doing a single thing about that? I have yet to see or hear of the first one after 5 years of bitching and moaning. I doubt more than a dozen people on DU followed Johnson v Bush at all.

Secondly, yes, Florida was stolen in '00. We know all about how and why and the dumb luck involved for Bush. What people who mourn that forget is that pollings show 5% of the electorate left Gore practically the day after casting their ballot for him and mostly went over to favoring Bush.

For all the whining about '02, Cleland and Mondale and the rest lost on effective Republican turnout efforts and moderate Democrats voting stupid (and admitting it, later). Whatever the Pubbies did in '04, it wasn't 3-4 million votes worth of fraud.

That being said, electronic voting machines are a symptom of our politically dysfunctional, undemocratic times- there aren't enough young poll workers, for one thing, so machines seem desirable. The elections boards who buy the machines in bulk bypass the manpower problem but create a new problem of inherent unreliability just from the crappily built machines innocently conking out.

[The Straight Story]

103. Easy - Levers with an R on it have a nude photo of ann coulter

who the hell would touch em then? ;)