I called Focus on the Family today. They hung up on me.

[knitter4democracy]

I couldn't take it anymore. After crying at some of the posts here, I just couldn't take their crap anymore. See, I used to be a Nazarene, just like Dobson. I grew up surrounded by people who memorized his books, listened to him on the radio, and practically thought him close to Jesus in importance. I went to a Nazarene college, even, and I saw how good little Nancy and Norman Nazarene types treated my gay and lesbian friends (tortured them in the dorms and did their best to shun them--sick, twisted crap). I had to go to chapel three times a week and once had to listen to a wacko preach about how he was a former gay man and how he helped others get "cured" (his wife scared me more than he did, which is saying something), and the only good thing that came out of that was hearing some boo him when he said that all gays and lesbians can be "cured."

I called and talked with someone in media relations or something like that. I asked her how they could do this to anyone--how taking a purely state issue and forcing the state to follow their narrow religious view was okay. I asked her why it was okay for the state to allow divorce when the Bible only does in cases of adultery. I asked her why they thought it was okay to treat anyone as less than fully human.

She just stuck the party line. "Marriage is between a man and a woman," she said over and over again. She said that we can't redefine marriage. I told that we already have. We used to purely define it in economic terms--women were property, and anything they owned became their husbands. The Church allowed this and looked the other way when women were forced to marry men they didn't want to. She was silent on that. She repeated her mantra, and not long after that, she hung up on me.

I'm calling her back and asking her if she's in favor of slavery. There are more verses in the Bible for slavery than there are against homosexual behavior. Heck, there's an entire epistle about it (Philemon). Yet, Christians decided in the 1800's that those verses were overridden by the Two Greatest Commandments, as Jesus taught them, and by His admonition that whatever we do to the least of these we do to Him. He made it clear that pretty much anyone hurting is one of the least of these, a neighbor we are to love as we love ourselves. Why don't those override all of the few verses against homosexual behavior if they override slavery?

Dobson is not going to get away with this if I can help it.

[NVMojo]

1. These idiots have a relationship with greed and mind control, not Jesus

[knitter4democracy]

19. I think you've got something on mind control.

I've been in their services, and there's definitely a mass hysteria factor for many. I'm not sure how authentic their religious experiences really are much of the time. I was told that I had the gift of discernment by three different pastors and some test we all had to take in some Sunday School class, and I often felt that things weren't real only to get yelled at when I said so. People like feeling that feeling, that Jesus is speaking to them and giving them a mission, and they really don't like it when anyone questions that.

[bobbieinok]

38. suggest you read dogemperor's posts at talk2 action + dark christianity

She (I think she) has many posts about mind control in dominionist churches, most particularly Assembly of God. The posts are informative and quite scary.

http://www.talk2action.org

and google 'dark christianity'

[Ladyhawk]

60. I'm a former fundy.

I think I'll have a look at your link.

On edit: How about recommending a specific article or two?

[JackBeck]

2. They are a sick, hate group.

My husband was raised Nazarene and his parents still practice. But after he came out to them, his mom stopped going to church. My take is that someone said something and she loves her son more than anything in the world. His dad is still actively involved. Not one days goes by without them telling us how much they love us...the both of us. I've had long, non-religious talks with his dad about what it means to be gay. He actually admitted to going to the library and doing his own research. The only thing that still sucks is that I have to sleep in the guest room whenever we visit. We're in our early 30's and have been together for 8 years, so I think it's kind of silly, but it's their rules, which I respect. Their reasoning is that anyone who isn't married can't sleep in the same bed. Well, we did one up them when we went to San Franciso and got married at City Hall. Well, his dad hit the roof! Still can't sleep in the same bed...

When you call back, ask why does Dobson encourage fathers to shower with their sons, so they can, ahem, see who's the man of the house?

[Pierre.Suave]

6. WTF???

Seriously?

"When you call back, ask why does Dobson encourage fathers to shower with their sons, so they can, ahem, see who's the man of the house?"

[JackBeck]

8. About three quaters down the page.

http://www.family.org/docstudy/newsletters/a0021043.cfm

"Meanwhile, the boy's father has to do his part. He needs to mirror and affirm his son's maleness. He can play rough-and-tumble games with his son, in ways that are decidedly different from the games he would play with a little girl. He can help his son learn to throw and catch a ball. He can teach him to pound a square wooden peg into a square hole in a pegboard. He can even take his son with him into the shower, where the boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a penis, just like his, only bigger."

[unpossibles]

10. yes, because rough and tumble games

and showering together is so not gay.


How do these people even manage to breathe, much less sleep at night? I'm starting to think that Fundamentalism is a disease, but I don't want to sound like them.

[knitter4democracy]

17. Small point:

Nazarenes are evangelicals, not fundies. Fundies believe every single word in the King James Bible is God's and literal. Evangelicals don't. They believe most of it's literal but not all, but they do believe it's all God's, no matter what translation you use.

I know, it's a small point, but it's a big one to them.

[unpossibles]

23. sorry - point taken

although I marvel at humanity's ability to kill each other for centuries over the difference between whether jesus becomes a cracker or the cracker is just symbolic. Which makes me scratch my head when people talk about the barbaric infighting of Muslims.

I know I am over-simplifying a bit, but.... any way, I apologize for the error.

[knitter4democracy]

24. No biggie--like I said, small point.

You're right--we're all too dang concerned with tiny differences that take up too much energy. What do I really care if some small part of my theology is right or not? As long as I stick to the two greatest commandments and pray for mercy and do the best I can to help the least of these (which is never enough), that's what I should focus on, not a word added to the Creed or who's descended from whom.

[xmas74]

28. Yep.

You nailed it. Lots of confusion here on DU about the difference between fundamentalists and evangelicals.

//raised Pentecostal. No way they'd align themselves as fundamentalists.

[knitter4democracy]

29. Oh, no, no. Very different.

The Church of the Nazarene used to be the Pentecostal Church of the Nazarene until the Pentecostal churches started going a different way with their theology. Pentecostals are different (in a small way, granted) from evangelicals and fundies, and they're all different from each other.

The interesting places, for me anyway, are the non-denoms where they all mix. Keeping peace sometimes is pretty difficult.

[xmas74]

34. Yep-knew about the Nazarene too.

I had a relative that split w/ the Pentecostal church and became Nazarene. Another decided that Assemblies was the way to go.

They get mad at me at reunions since I lump them all as evangelicals, due to the delivery style of their service. I do this on purpose, of course, just to see who starts the "My religion is the only true religion" argument. Sit back and let the good times roll.

I was raised Pentecostal but the branch I was raised in was going toward the "Jesus-Only" preachings. I swore I'd never raise a child in a world of book burning, album burning, forced recruiting(did you have to do that? We had to tell everyone we knew that Jesus was the one true and that they needed to see for themselves. I hated that part-especially when they'd call out our names at Sunday School and want to know if we had done our part to convert "all heathens" that week.) and so on.

My church was messed up, plain and simple. I have no affiliation with them as an adult, nor does my daughter. Makes for a great time at family events.

[knitter4democracy]

39. Lol! Good times roll indeed.

:D

I will never forget the chapel service in which my mentor prof preached (she'd been a pastor for awhile before going back for her doctorate in literature). She had the audacity to say that there's no such thing as a Christian college (they are entities without souls, and only people can choose to be Christian, not corporate entities) and no Biblical basis for revival. Last chapel they ever let her speak in, but it was worth every minute. :D

We were trained on how to work on someone to convert, but they never called us out on it. We were often encouraged to bring friends to Wednesday night youth group, etc., but it never went much further than that.

Since we're not allowed to bring up our difference of faith at in-law family events, we don't get to have fun like that. *sigh* Don't think I haven't thought of it, though. ;)

[xmas74]

44. I have two uncles, three cousins and one of my grandfathers

have all entered the ministry, either Pentecostal or Assemblies of God. I also have two cousins who are missionaries w/ the Assemblies. Religion is often brought up at family reunions.

As to conversion: no training for us. They felt that whatever praise came from the mouth of babes could cause people to flock to our congregation en masse.

I don't miss a single day of it. I hated it and felt uncomfortable, especially the Christmas program. I can remember one year when they had an adult wearing a Santa costume w/ a Satan mask. Made all the children cry for days afterwards.

[knitter4democracy]

45. Man, that's bad.

Why scare kids like that? Oh, yeah, right. *sigh*

You know what's fun to do to ministers? Ignore them. They hate that. ;) Of course, I usually get into with them about something, but I paid too much attention in my religion classes in college. :blush:

[xmas74]

50. I informed one of my relatives that I was a lesbian once

and that I couldn't wait for my first abortion.

Neither is true but it blew their minds.

The biggest mindblower was when I said that my boyfriend at the time was African-American. He wasn't but I wanted to prove the point that they were also racists.

I gave up on arguing Scripture w/ them years ago. They could turn a word to the point that you wanted to smack them. By my 17th birthday I just went for the throat, to prove whatever point I wanted to prove.

A few of them are convinced that I am hellbound.

[TankLV]

62. My biggest problems is with the evangelicals!

Keep your fucking religion TO YOURSELF! if you want - but STOP TRYING TO RAM YOUR RELIGION DOWN MY THROAT!

I don't need it or want it!

Keep it in your little pathetic churches.

The rest of us don't appreciate your "evangelizing"!

[xmas74]

63. I didn't want to do it

but it was expected of us.

My attempts even as a small child were half-assed at best.

[knitter4democracy]

64. Mine too.

I've even done mission trips and all, but I don't think I've ever helped anyone become a Christian. I just focused more on helping children have schools, safe places to play, and stuff like that. I even taught Sunday School for three years in high school and never pressed my students on anything like that--I didn't think that was my job, even though the pastor wanted us all to regularly work on the kids. :eyes:

The ones who bug me the most are the ones who go door to door. Even their own studies show that to be the least effective method, which I usually point out to their pastor after taking the flyer and calling the number on it.

[xmas74]

66. Door to door always bugged me too.

My parents never had us do that but I knew of others who did.

I've always thought that the tracts handed out were also a big joke. A few members did hand out tracts with our church address stamped on them.

Come on, who really reads a tract unless they want to make fun of them?

[Fire Walk With Me]

21. Pound a peg in hole, shower and compare penes.

Of course, they are not condoning homosexual behaviour.

This is a joke, right?

[treestar]

25. It always amazes me how they can claim men and women are so

genetically different, if so, why is it necessary to make sure to treat male children and female children differently?

[Pierre.Suave]

43. My God

that is the craziest thing I have heard Dobson say yet.

[JackBeck]

56. He also likes to beat the family dog.

"I had seen this defiant mood before, and knew there was only one way to deal with it. The ONLY way to make Siggie obey is to threaten him with destruction. Nothing else works. I turned and went to my closet and got a small belt to help me 'reason' with Mr. Freud …

What developed next is impossible to describe. That tiny dog and I had the most vicious fight ever staged between man and beast. I fought him up one wall and down the other, with both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/rev-dobson-on-rev-dobso_b_8734.html

He's such an admirable Christian.

[Pierre.Suave]

59. Wow

just wow, we need to get these people out of their position of influence over the admin.

[Kerrytravelers]

49. "boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a penis, just like his"

Does focus on the family train Catholic priests? :shrug:




Don't get too worked up. I'm a Catholic. I'm not against Jesus, just the scary, fundy, nutcase Christians who hate in his name.

[TankLV]

61. Our coach did that a couple times - to unplug drains, etc.

And after seeing HIM, I KNEW I was gay!

YUM!

[Scriptor Ignotus]

67. omg

that passage couldn't be gayer if Liberace sang it on Broadway.

[knitter4democracy]

16. Wow. They still make you sleep separately?

That's messed up. You're married, so you should be in the same bed. Would he blow up if you got a hotel room while you were visiting?

My hubby was fourth generation Nazarene, which may not sound like much, but the church has only been around since 1908, so it's something to his family. We decided to convert to the Eastern Orthodox Church before we got married but kept that a secret until after we were good and married, knowing how his mom would blow a gasket, and she did. *sigh*

Give your hubby a hug from me. Growing up Nazarene when you're different at all is freakin' difficult. I came from a divorced family situation, and my stepmom mentally abused me, and my pastor told me that I had to submit to her and honor her no matter what, even if it hurt me. That's about when I started souring on the church. Doing mission work with the church in college sealed it. Bunch of closeted bigots.

[JackBeck]

37. I will definitely give my guy a big hug...as soon as he gets back from

Sweden in two weeks. He's there for work.

We've flirted with getting a hotel room when we visit for quite some time but decided that the more time we spend with his parents, the better. The other messed up thing is they stayed at our apartment in Brooklyn when they visit...and sleep in our bed. Not while we're in it, mind you, but we laugh as an aside about how they "sleep in the bed of sin". Seriously, though, they are wonderful and loving people who have come a long way. I think sometimes his dad has more problems with his only daughter marrying a Southern Baptist Preacher than he does with having a gay son.

Jon was way ahead of his time growing up Nazarene. He stopped going to church as a teenager because he didn't like, as he told his parents, how his religion excluded people. Smart boy. I'm a "recovering Catholic" and my priest growing up told me it was OK that I was there at my dad's funeral. Man, religion can really be used in all the wrong ways.

[knitter4democracy]

40. My BIL left the church and the faith entirely for similar reasons.

He became an athiest as a teen, and boy howdy, did my in-laws have a hhhuuuuggggeee problem with that. Still do, actually. He's agnostic now, and they've made talking about it off-limits.

I'm sorry he's in Sweden for such a long time--that's got to be hard. I hate it when my hubby's on-call and gone for 40 hours straight, but that's nothing compared to two weeks and so very far away. Ugh. Just bad.

Hmm. Southern Baptist preacher, huh? Yeah, I'll bet he doesn't like that. Do they talk theology at all or just let that dog lie?

[JackBeck]

41. This is the longest we've been apart in the 9 years we've been together.

And it couldn't have come at a more inconvenient time. We've been renting for years and two days after he gets back we move into our first home. The first time either of us has ever purchased a home. I'm pretty much living in a packed-up apartment, which is fine, but...ahhhh!! Stress!!

When the men get together, they pretty much just talk about fellowship. My FIL is the accountant at his church, and since my BIL has started his own congregation, dad pretty much is pretty much just giving financial advice. The BIL gets distracted by me because I love to help clean-up after dinner, and seems preoccupied and curious as to why I am doing the dishes, instead of the ladies.

Personally, I've been trying to figure out whether I'm an atheist or agnostic. I know my family would have no problem what my decision would be. My sister and her husband consider themselves conservative, but they are SOOO NOT!

[knitter4democracy]

47. Man, that's bad. Talk about stress!

Ack! I hate moving as it is, but that's just stress on stress on more stress. You know what you should do? Don't unpack when you get there--take three days off. It'll help. Of course, he should do it while he's still switching back to your time zone. What is he, seven time zones ahead or so?

My hubby tried to help with the cooking and all one Thanksgiving soon after we were married, and my step-mother banned him from the kitchen. He didn't want to watch football, and he loves to cook and all, so it was an awkward day for him. We don't go there for Thanksgiving anymore (never really liked them anyway).

[JackBeck]

54. I'm way ahead of ya' knitter4democracy.

I'm taking two weeks off just to make sure the transition is smooth. It's most of my vacay time (I work for a non-profit, so the pays crappy but they make up for it in vacation time) and I'm prepared in case there's any discrepancies. Not to mention, and here's where I pull the gay card, we're seeing Madonna in concert during this time, so at least we'll be entertained.

[Nightjock]

3. Could you pm me with thier phone number?

I can't take these people anymore. I want to calmly "call them out" too.

[knitter4democracy]

11. Here's the contact page

http://family.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/family.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=14190

It will give you several options on how to contact them.

[The Straight Story]

4. Kick - and thanks for calling them! (nt)

[Az_lefty]

5. What was the verse that was used so often to justify slavery?

I believe it was from Matthew. It was being taken totally out of context but was used to pacify slaves being converted to Christianity.

On Edit: It may have been this one. Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

[knitter4democracy]

12. That and the whole book of Philemon.

Well, there was the whole sons of Ham thing, too, but that wasn't the main justification.

[Kurovski]

7. Thank you for speaking out, knitter4democracy .

:hug:

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

9. The Sourthern Baptists Exist b/c they refused to go against slavery

That is why that church exists. The Baptists came out against it before the civil war and the Southern branch of it left the Baptist church.

[knitter4democracy]

27. I'd forgotten that.

The Wesleyans didn't join with the Nazarenes because the Nazarenes wouldn't come out for civil rights during the fifties. Tells ya something.

[olaus]

13. Just wondering

Which Nazarene school did you attend?

[knitter4democracy]

15. I went out of my region.

I was supposed to go to Olivet but went to Mt. Vernon Nazarene instead. It was cheaper, the same drive, and it had a better education program. It was a hard place to be, but I met my hubby there and made good friends.

[knitter4democracy]

14. Update--now I'm really crying.

I can't believe there are people out there so freakin' deluded and messed up. :cry:

Okay, I can, as I went to college with them, but I really thought they'd grow out of that or see the light somehow.

We just had a long converstation, the chick who answered the phone (missed her name) and I. We went round and round, and she finally started saying that we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I guess we are, because her arguments are seriously messed up.

Focus on the Family is for the amendment because it protects traditional marriage. That's what she said. I asked her if that meant going back to women being property, and she refused to think that it had ever been done in the States. :eyes: She said that this amendment is an important issue for them because it affects the family and that same-sex marriage is not Biblical or okay for a stable society.

When I asked her why it was more stable to tell people that, after living together for years, they couldn't make medical decisions for each other or inherit anything or have any legal rights, her response was to ask me if incest were okay. I told her that I'm fine with things as long as it involves consenting adults and no issues of coercion, rape, or abuse. She asked me if I were okay then with gay marriage, incest, and polygamy. I told her that I didn't think the State should care what consenting adults (not minors, not abused spouses, not people coerced into the situation) do in the privacy of their own homes. She acted like I was a horrible sinner, but I asked her how it was a State issue. I told her that I don't care what the Church says--it has the right to say whatever it wants, and I have the right to find a new church or stay and speak out. She just kept repeating that it is better for the State to not have gay marriage, but she was silent on exactly how that was, except to mumble something about there being psych research.

In the course of our long conversation, she explained that being gay or lesbian is a choice, obviously so because she knew people who had been "cured" of it. I asked her if they were bisexual, and she responded that there's no bisexual gene--in fact, that there's zero genetic evidence that being GLBT is something anyone's born with. Her stance, and that of the FOTF ministry in general, is that people become gay or lesbian out of confusion in their early years or out of abuse. I told her that I personally know people who weren't abused or raised in horrible homes who knew from very early on that they were lesbian (two of my friends in college), and she said just that there's a lot of pain out there, whatever that means. I told her to read up on the medical lit and see that there's tons we don't know about genes and the fetal environment.

She refused to admit that this amendment would hurt anyone. She said that Dobson and his crew would never condone anyone hurting anyone else, even in the name of "curing" them or because it seemed okay to hurt them. I asked her if it were entirely impossible for her to see that it would happen anyway--that the mere fact they're working to strip people of rights might be construed as an attack. She totally deflected that and said that they'd never condone it.

That's when I got Biblical on her ass. I asked her about the two greatest commandments, about the parables, about Jesus saying "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" and all of that. She said that disagreeing with people's lifestyles wasn't hurting them. I told her to talk to people outside of her bubble, and she laughed and said she had. I asked her if she'd listened. She laughed. Anyway, I asked her how it could be that a loving God could ever think that working to strip people of their rights would ever be anything that made any sense, given the Gospels, and she said that the amendment doesn't target gays and make them a lesser class of citizens.

We had to agree to disagree, and I told her that they should be praying for mercy, as God made it clear (in my Bible at least) that we aren't to judge others but to love them and that attacking them or being okay with a president murdering babies and innocent people and then signing this thing because it's good for him politically sure isn't loving them. She told me flat out that she doesn't believe that President Bush is only doing this for political reasons, and I told her to do some research into how hypocritical he is. She demurred.

I ended with saying I would keep praying for God's mercy for all those dragged into this by their preachers, told they're doing it for God, and that God would forgive them for not knowing what they're doing. She told me that they're all praying and think this is what God wants them to do, and I told her to pray for discernment that it's not all just a mob mentality thing. She laughed at that.

Sorry if this is incoherent. I'm still crying--I can't help but cry. They are hurting brothers and sisters, neighbors I love, and they honestly think it's because they're supposed to. It's just sick.

[swimboy]

18. Not all all incoherent. You are very brave and bold.

Thank you so much for what you are trying to do.

:hug:

[knitter4democracy]

20. It's not enough, though, is it.

I'm thinking of calling up the pastors in our area, but that might be bad. I know our senators will vote against this (at least, they'd better!), and other senators don't care much if you're not from their state.

I'd write a letter to the editor, but I've already maxed out for the month and will have to wait until July. *sigh* What else can I do? I can't go to big protests with my kids and my hubby's work schedule, but I'm really considering it on this. I just can't stand what they're doing. :cry:

[SacredCow]

22. You've gone above and beyond, as far as I'm concerned...

And I've no doubt that your brothers, sisters, and neighbors have a great friend in you! :hug:

As a gay man, I probably should be more upset and proactive about this debacle, but it gets kind of complicated for me. See, I WAS married for 9 years (to a woman). It seems that I was complacent enough to stay married to someone who quite obviously was only interested in my money. Needless to say, it was an ugly, ugly divorce once I decided to stop pretending. It all turned out OK, and I'm quite happy with who and where I am in my life, but I'm wholly uninterested in marrying anybody ever again.

[knitter4democracy]

26. I'm sure you're well-loved, though.

You are here--it's DU, where bleeding heart liberals love everyone. :D

For me it's about saying that someone is less than, not fully human. That I'm not okay with, and I hope I never would be.

[SacredCow]

46. Oh, yeah... I don't feel unloved....

I have a significant other who understands my position and things are good!

I guess that I can't see the forest through the trees- I just know that I, personally, will not be entering into anymore "till death do you part" contracts with another person (with the notable exception of my wonderful son :loveya: ).

[knitter4democracy]

48. :D

Good! That sounds like it's just right for you. :hug:

[kevinbgoode]

53. FOTF practices willful ignorance as a cover for bigotry. . .

Take this statement they told you:

"that there's zero genetic evidence that being GLBT is something anyone's born with. Her stance, and that of the FOTF ministry in general, is that people become gay or lesbian out of confusion in their early years or out of abuse."

Frankly, I thought confusion was the leading "hook" for fascist organizations like Focus on the Family to rope people into religion. I know you were upset, but I would have asked this "lady" if christians were just generally confused or did God bring them into this world needing a multi-million dollar industry to "convert" them "back" to Him/Her. Whenever someone gives me the line about being "born again" I always tell them that a perfect God had no problem letting me be born correctly the FIRST time. They struggle to respond to that point. . .

[xmas74]

30. I've never called them.

I figure if it's anything like talking to certain family members at annual reunions then there is no point.

[knitter4democracy]

31. I wanted to try, at least.

Mostly, I wanted to know if they really believe that crap. Yup, they do. I don't get it--it just doesn't make any sense to me. At least I tried talking, though. Maybe she'll think about it at some point and look things up (but I seriously doubt she would).

[xmas74]

35. She won't look anything up.

I know my relatives would rather live in a bubble than go outside of their comfort zone.

BTW-did she go for the kill w/ the Let. quote? That's the one that tends to be thrown out immediately in my family.

[Javaman]

32. You have a heck of a lot more patience then I would ever have...

And why would you even try to reason with these nuts?

True tolerance is never selective. They are hypocrites.

Don't waste your time trying to wrap your brain around their twisted logic, it will make you crazy.

No matter the era, no matter the civilization, no matter the society, the bell curve applies to all. There will always be the extremest views at either end.

Live peaceful, live morally, respect your fellow human being and live by example. Those are the true words of God.

[in_cog_ni_to]

33. Dobson is a Nazarene??? Oh dear. That explains alot.

I've been going through some crap with my son's girlfriend's mother...SHE is a Nazarene and we are Jewish. Your story has made everything clearer to me.:(

Anyway, I'm so proud of you for calling them! Of course she hung up on you. They NEVER have an answer when confronted about the issues they say they care about. If they can't quote Limpballs, Falwell, Dobson or Robertson...they have nothing to say to defend their hatred.

[knitter4democracy]

36. Ahhh. That's going to be hard.

PM me with any specific questions, if you want. Nazarene mothers can be a difficult lot.

[yardwork]

42. Don't cry, Knitter!

As a lesbian, I thank you from my heart for calling those bigots (twice!) and trying to reason with them. You demonstrated kindness, patience, love, and a lot of other Christian virtues that some so-called Christians appear to have forgotten or perhaps they were just raised wrong.

I can't get that upset about this issue, when I think about the thousands of young men and women coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan in coffins, or with their bodies and minds terribly injured. When I think about Abu Ghraib and Gitmo and Haditha and the other horrors of these wars, I can't even get mad about the chimp's latest idiocy. Compared to the children killed and maimed with the weapons my tax money is used to purchase, this issue is laughably stupid. It's nothing but pure bigotry, but what else can we expect from bushco?

You did a lot of good today. Please don't cry.

[knitter4democracy]

51. That makes me cry, too.

I try to just work on the helmet liners for troops and their socks and all, but it's hard not to get misty-eyed when I pray over them, hoping they'll come home safe and sound.

Never knit a helmet liner during that show Over There--definite tear-jerker.

Oh, I did bring up the war, and she got really quiet on that. I asked her how it was pro-life to kill women and babies and innocents in a country that's done nothing to us. She had no answer and was silent.

Gah! Makes me sick. I should go knit.

[Nikki Stone 1]

52. So you did your bit for 6/6/06 and talked to Satan's minions today?

You have a lot of guts. I salute you.

[knitter4democracy]

55. Lol!!

Thanks for the laugh--I needed it. :D

[Nikki Stone 1]

57. Hey, it's got to beat the new "Omen" remake.

:evilgrin:

[madfloridian]

58. Dobson, who beats tiny dogs to show them he's boss. Link.

http://www.nospank.net/dugan.htm

This is for real, and very sad that a man like this has so much influence.

[knitter4democracy]

65. I'll never forget when I first read that.

I sat there, reading the whole excerpt on how he beat his dog, and it was like a light went on--it finally made sense of the crap I'd heard him say on the radio and what everyone at church talked about. That guy has serious power and control issues.