High-rent homeless

[Yollam]

VIDEO: http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/business/2006/06/04/harris.young.millionaire.cnn


This is heartbreaking.

Rent increases in California are driving many families to shelters. CNN's Kareen Wynter reports (June 3)


They jacked this poor woman's rent from $900 to $1200 - in LONG BEACH (not even a really nice town!), and now she's on the street. WTF kind of country are we when people working a full-time job can't even afford a lousy apartment in a working-class town? And what is with the owners of these places gouging people like this? No loyalty whatsoever to good tenants!

:mad:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

1. I moved back into my mother's house because...

my landlord (I knew her for years & we didn't think a lease was necesary) jacked my rent from $900 to $1100 a month. This was for a tiny apartment with bad water and no heat (theoretically, there was heat, but they didn't turn it on even when it was 30 outside). It's even more fucked up than that.

They raised the rent with a couple days notice. My mother wrote a check to cover the difference. Apparently, my landlord took down all her info off the check. I didn't come home one weekend, she called up my mother looking for me. She told my landlord that I was helping her move into her new house one night and she didn't know where I was the night before, but I was an adult and she didn't care. My mother naturally told me about this situation and I was pissed off. So I basically became a "hi-bye" type of person with my landlord. She then wrote my mother a handwritten 2-page letter saying I was "quiet and withdrawn" with her so she consulted several people and found some websites to "reduce my level of pain and suffering and increase my level of joy."

My mother got that in the mail, showed it to me, and offered up a room in her new house. And that is how I came to be living with my mom. That place had the potential to be so fucking awesome too. If only was landlord wasn't insane.

[Yollam]

2. I was super-lucky with my last apartment in San Francisco.

The landladies were REALLY nice, always bringing down little presents, and they reduced the rent twice for us because we were a struggling young family. It wasn't enough, and we still had to leave SF - it's just too pricey there, but we are still friends with the owners. I was so lucky to rent from human beings. How awful it must be to deal with corporate-type landlords who couldn't give a crap about you as a person.


But I guess in your case, you might have preferred a corporation, rather than a busybody nutball.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

5. In my previous apt, I had corporate-type asshole landlords.

The only problems were my hyper-sensitive to sound downstairs neighbor (even my landlord was totally on my side against her) and my bipolar roommate.

[Erika]

3. I heard a caller on CSPAN, asking if her 30 year old daughter

should remain at home because she could not afford housing on her own and the answer was times are hard.

W has decimated this country.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

4. Yeah, I'm 23 and it kind of sucked moving back.

I'd been totally on my own for two years. The price of housing in my area is so out of proportion with what most people are earning. My mom sold her old house for $800,000...my parents bought it 10 years ago at $200,000. The house we're living in now cost $1million. We also have some inherited land in Florida and researching the area, you could get a similar house (on the water!!!!) for about $300,000.

I didn't finish college, but I still was making more money than many of my friends who did finish it. There is something wrong when you have college graduates that can only find work at a Borders and Best Buy (working two jobs and barely making ends meet).

[StellaBlue]

8. re your last paragraph

that's me and most of my friends

I have a masters degree

[Blue_Tires]

70. i'm in that same boat as well

29 with master's degree, now forced back home with parents, and doing variety of odd or PT jobs after being unemployed in field for 2.5 of the last 5 years

AND uninsured AND in serious debt....some fine economy this is

[lindisfarne]

11. Why not move to a more affordable area of the country? If you're single

this is pretty easy to do. At least if you're making minimum wage or slightly higher, you can still afford to share an apt. with someone. And if you get a job that pays $35K, you can probably afford to buy a condo (if you live frugally) - homr ownership wouldn't be much more expensive than rent,anyhow, and you could always take in a border.

[Yollam]

12. Yeah, poor people should pack up and leave CA for the rich.

After all, it's the nicest state - it's only fitting that only the rich should be able to live there. Who cares if someone grew up there and has to leave their friends, family, all they know. Maybe the only job they know is there.

Of course, once all the poor have left, who is going to serve the Mahi-mahi and massage the feet of California's stylish rich and near-rich?


Seriously. WTF kind of solution is that? "Move!"?


PS - 1 BR condos START at $300K in San Francisco. I can't speak for long beach, but a 35K income doesn't buy ANYTHING. Hell, groceries are at least 20% higher than everywhere else.




What you say would maybe make sense for a person who just moved out to CA for the lifestyle, but millions of people were born and raised there.



Well, that's been the plight of the poor since the Okies in Dust Bowl Days. Why should they ever expect the luxury of settling down?


BTW, when I lived in Southern California in the early 90's, Long Beach was working class, and rents on 2 BR apt's were in the $4~500 range. What a dumb broad the lady in the story was to not take the hint and get the hell out sooner, huh?


Of course, wherever she moves to, rich investors with wallets fattened by Bush tax cuts and offshoring-enhanced portfolios will come in and buy everything up and make it expensive there, too.

Thank you, GOP for systematically turning our country into another Mexico (economically, not culturally).

[debbierlus]

65. Condos in a converted school down the street from me START in the mid 200s

I live in Western MA. And, it is BEAUTIFUL.

But, the prices are RIDICULOUS. I bought JUST before the big boom five years ago. I couldn't afford to buy my house now!

[Yollam]

15. Seriously, I wish you'd answer my post.

On a personal basis, such advice would be fine, since this is the world of crap we are living in, and there may indeed be no other choice. However, this is NOT how it should be, and it sure isn't how it was when I was growing up. Jesus, the woman has a full-time job, and she has to move to bumfuck Egypt and get a roommate to keep a roof over her head? Is that a good society-wide solution, when there is PLENTY of housing, half of it standing EMPTY because it is owned by speculators and the rich as second homes?

The lady is a single mom living on a modest income with a kid in CA. You can bet she knows about "living frugally".

[MadHound]

21. Of course this isn't how it SHOULD be,

But sadly, this is the way it is. People have been moving out to California for over seventy years now, and with such a population influx, the value of land, apartments, houses and living space goes up. Is the current housing bubble forcing up housing and rental prices unjustly, sure they are, but what are you going to do? What can you do? Move back in with your folks, yeah, but most adults find that option unattractive.

Therefore what is left is to move to another state whose cost of living is at least on the sane side of the scale. Yes, I'm sorry that you have to leave "the nicest state"(though there are many many people who would contest that contention), but it seems that the current housing problems out there in CA seem to leave few good choices:shrug:

And think of it this way, enough people move from CA and the market will indeed kick in and lack of demand will bring down prices.

No, it's not fair, nor right, but sadly I don't see it changing anytime soon.

[Yollam]

22. Actually, without foreign immigration, California would be shrinking.

There have been more Americans leaving the state than coming in for over a decade and a half. Without the foreign influx, it would be losing population.

By the way, this is not about me. I left the country, not just California, and housing prices were just one factor in that. I had a number of choices open to me. A lot of people, like the lady in the story, are not so lucky.

And again, the problem is not limited to California, and it's not just about a lot of people wanting to live in a place. Speculation has become a real scourge. These people are starting to snap up homes in Idaho, Montana, all over the place, and POS Bush is GIVING them the money to do it.

[MadHound]

24. Speculatore are indeed the bain of this current housing bubble

However the basics of the market still apply, and are still propelling the prices upwards. The speculators are merely giving it a boost.

Prices are bound to go up drastically however when the population explodes like it has in California. The number of people has gone from 5 million in 1930 to 35 mill currently. Hell, the population has doubled since the sixties, back in the days when California became the "in " state to live.

Californians are suffering the brunt of the housing bubble, sad to say. But that is soon to burst and perhaps might bring some relief in housing prices. Until then, what can one do:shrug: The options aren't many, and sadly moving away from California might be the best of a bad lot, at least at this point in time.

[Yollam]

28. Prop 13 exacerbates the problem terribly and should be repealed.

Prop 13 keeps property taxes low so long as you don't move, so people are reluctant to do so, especially in an inflate market like this - thus tightening the supply of available housing even more.

Prop 13 really should be repealed. It seems discriminatory to tax people more just because they committed the crime of moving.

[lindisfarne]

45. 100% in agreement. MN has a property tax refund which refunds

part of what you pay in property tax based on your income and family size. This is a much fairer way to handle the problem caused by rising home prices raising taxes so much that low-income people who have lived decades in their houses can no longer afford to pay their taxes.

I know someone who inherited from her mother a house valued at over $1 million, who rents it out for $4000/month and lives in a garage apartment. Because she inherited, the house is valued for tax purposes at what it was valued when Prop. 13 took effect. Thus, she pays about $1,000 annually in taxes - despite the fact she's a lawyer and earns over $100,000 annually.

Prop. 13 made such disproportion between ability to pay (income) and taxes paid a possibility.

Unfortunately, I doubt it will ever be repealed = even if it is explained to people that there is a better way to deal with this (e.g., similar to MN), people are so anti-tax, they won't vote for it. (And CA requires a 2/3 majority to raise taxes, which a repeal of Prop. 13 would be, even if it was replaced by a better, fairer system.)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

92. Speculation started in the 1980s under Guess Who

At that time, there were articles in the Minneapolis papers about investors who were buying apartment buildings, jacking up the rent to cover the costs, and then soon selling the building to someone else with the promise of being able to charge even higher rent.

For a while, it seemed as if there was no such thing as a lease.

[SmokingJacket]

41. I'm a native Californian; my g-g-grandparents were pioneers...

and my family had to leave because we couldn't afford it. Oh, well. It's not like it used to be, anyway -- the whole shoreline ruined with mansions, etc.

[lindisfarne]

43. I've got to agree with this. If you choose to live in an region where a

lot of people want to live, you should expect to pay higher living costs. If you're willing to make that sacrifice, go for it - you may end up benefitting long-term by having your house go up so much in value that you can sell it, move to a cheaper area, and use the proceeds to finance your retirement.

But if you cannot even afford to buy a house and have to keep throwing money away on rent, it doesn't make sense to stay - move to a place where you can afford to buy a house.

Frankly, I *don't* think CA is the best place to live in the US. Sun and good weather do not equal quality of life. CA is, quite frankly, the worst place I've ever lived.

[sweetheart]

58. It is my feeling as well, what you say

Just i realize in this thread that there are many of us, native californians who are
buggered off as they came in with the massive landgrab and spoilage rot. Mugabe uses
bulldozers to clear out the unwanteds, and in california, those who will not treadmill
for the super high money needed to stay on the prime land are foredefeated, and might
as well be bulldozed... with the clean efficiency of financial warfare.

[Yollam]

68. It's not just sun and good weather.

The whole southwest has sun and good weather. There is an intangible something about CA that makes it a very appealing place to live. I felt it in both San Diego and San Francisco. I had very few complaints about San Francisco, other than the outrageous cost of living. Japan is more affordable.

And the worst place I've ever lived was S. Florida. Looks great on paper, but it's a horrible place.

The woman in the story would not have had to deal with such rent shocks in San Francisco, btw, as we had rent control.

[lindisfarne]

94. well, that "intangible something" seems to work for some, but I prefer

a number of other non-ca cities I've lived, where both the quality of life was higher for me, and my financial status was far better. I'm not complaining as I made a temporary move knowing it would cost me financially during my temporary stay but would benefit me as soon as I move on to the next stage of my life (not in CA!)
But quitehonestly, I don't understand why people who cannot foresee being able to afford a house stay.

[Yollam]

96. 40% or more of Americans don't own their homes...

...not being in California is no guarantee that one can afford a home.


I could afford to buy a spacious new home in my hometown, El Paso, because it is one of the cheapest cities in America. Unfortunately, I'm married to an Asian who would feel very alone there. We picked SF for the bilingual Japanese schools and the Asian community, no the "intangible something", but various factors caused us to move on. I can cope with life in Japan much better than she would cope with life in the El Paso desert, and her elderly dad was all alone, so we came back to Japan. Besides, we have excellent universal health care here.

[lindisfarne]

99. 73.8% home ownership in the west; median home value $151,000.

California ownership rates have scarcely moved from 54.3% in 1950 to 59.7% today. In New York, ownership is barely above 50%, up just 6 points from 1950.

When those states are lumped with others in the region, the ownership figures improve but are still well behind the percentage for the nation.

The Midwest leads at 73.8%, follow by the South at 71%, with both the West and Northeast at just over 64%.

A large gap between the cost of housing and what people earn is a significant factor why ownership is more prevalent in certain areas. Nationally, the median home value is $151,000 with household incomes hovering near $43,000. That's great if you live in Des Moines, Iowa, or Grand Rapids, Mich.

But it's not so good if you live in California or hot pockets of real estate where competition for homes has driven prices through the roof while incomes have stayed so-so. The median home value in California is $391,000 while household income is $49,000. That's a scant $6,000 above the national average.

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Banking/Homebuyingguide/P141312.asp
======================

I've never said NO ONE should choose to live in CA; what I have said consistently in this thread is if you cannot afford a home in CA (and thereby benefit from earning equity in your home), or if you don't want to sacrifice spending on other things so you can afford a house in CA, consider moving out of CA. Amazingly, many Californians I've spoken with are either oblivious to the fact that housing costs are significantly less in most of the country (and salaries are not so different), or they literally believe CA is the only place there is any quality of life (despite their never having lived anywhere else).

[Yollam]

101. And a lot of people have taken their CA equity and bought palaces in BFE.

There's nothing wrong with that if that's what they want to do.

My point in the OP is that in many markets (not just in CA), renters are being priced right out of their apartments and onto the streets. Your glib advice to "just leave" may be fine on an individual basis, but it is not a solution to the problem. I hope for your sake that someday you never have to go through what working people California have been going through, and everybody just tells you "move to Alaska, or Guam, It's cheaper there."


Land is much more scarce here in Japan, but there are still single family houses here in Fukuoka (mid-sized city) for under $200K, and condos for even less. Why? Hmm...

[lindisfarne]

102. The question is, why, in one of the most liberal state in the nation, are

workers being priced out of the housing market? Why can't these liberals change this?

I don't have much hope that anything is going to change to any significant degree in the next 20 years, and people should be thinking about their financial future.

Yes, those who can find a way to buy a home can benefit from the equity. But I did specifically mention people who CANNOT do that, or people who, in order to afford a home, have to make incredible sacrifices (which usually translates into high risk if their income changes or an unexpected expenditure crops up before they've gotten enough equity in the house to offset the cost of selling (as well as market fluctuations)).

[Yollam]

103. Social liberal, but rabidly anti-tax...

...hence the fact that Prop 13 is considered the "third rail" of California politics.

[lindisfarne]

106. Municipalities can provide support for affordable housing with bonds.

No taxation necessary at all. The bond covers the entire cost of the housing.

NIMBYism has been a big problem with infill and high density housing construction in CA as well. Again, this, in one of the most liberal states in the nation. And you'd think liberals would be willing to pay more in taxes if it benefits society as a whole through providing housing for those less fortunate. It would also undermine the power of the developers - with an adequate supply of housing, they couldn't charge the exorbitant prices they charge.

I repeat:
In So. Cal, most home owners want housing prices to stay high - obviously, they stand to benefit when they sell.

[huskerlaw]

Dupe post

sorry about that.

[huskerlaw]

104. Move to a place where you can afford it...

sounds nice and easy...but what about people who have family here? They should move away from their families in order to avoid being homeless?

As someone who moved here on purpose and with the full knowledge that I can't afford to buy a house (or a condo, for that matter), I think your argument is SHIT.

Besides, what exactly do you think would happen to housing costs across the country if everyone who can't afford to live in SoCal moved away? Ask Oregon what happens...Inflated housing costs for everybody! Great solution. :eyes:

I will give you props for getting out of California since you obviously hate it so much. We don't need the haters. :hi:

[lindisfarne]

107. Yes. If the alternatives are being homeless or moving to somewhere

where a person can afford a home (especially if that person has kids), yes, they should move away. If they have family in CA (beyond any kids) and are still homeless, those family members can't count for much.

I honestly don't see anything changing in CA within the next 20 years on the affordable housing front; CA has gotten more and more unaffordable over the last decade; of those who do not currently owned, the percentage which can afford a median priced home has dropped precipitously.

Not even the majority of the liberals in CA care about the people who cannot afford housing. If they did, since CA is one of the most liberal states in the nation, CA would be passing enough bonds to support construction of affordable housing; Californians would not be beset by the "NIMBY" mindset when high density and infill housing proposals come to their neighborhood.

With such a liberal population, it's hard to understand why more tax dollars as well are not going to creation of affordable housing. Aren't liberals supposed to believe in taxation which benefits society as a whole? Doesn't affordable housing benefit society as a whole??

[lectrobyte]

25. I've had to move for the reverse reason: Houses were cheap, but

there were no jobs. It sucks to move out of state, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

[lindisfarne]

49. I don't believe I said anything about moving to Egypt. This is, however

an all too prevalent belief in CA - that moving anywhere outside of CA amounts to moving to a place where the standard of living is horrible.

This belief is generally expressed by people who have no experience of living anywhere outside of CA.

If you want to keep believing CA is the best place to live and are willing to pay the premium and make the sacrifices necessary to live in CA, it's your decision.

Californians moving to a number of cities in the early-to-mid 1990s weren't too welcome in those places - they were seen as negatively changing the quality of life in those places.

So maybe I should stop revealing the secret that there are plenty of better places throughout the US to live than CA. I'll keep secret the cities I've lived outside of CA where the quality of life was far, far higher.

[Yollam]

69. bumfuck egypt is slang for the country.

And nowadays, only the country and a few small cities are even remotely affordable. Even Chicago is expensive now. I don't know where you get this notion of life in CA being so horrible. Aside from the Los Angeles metro nightmare, most of the state is lovely, aside from the cost of living, and I've lived in 4 states, traveled in at least 10 of them. I'd rather have a studio in California than a mansion in Florida...

[lindisfarne]

81. See msg #73 for what you could get for $700 in chicago. Never heard

"egypt" meaning "the country" and chicago & other cities couldn't be consiedered the country.
Also, compare median housing prices for chicago
and major CA cities (eq. in size to chicago - you'll notice a big difference!)

[Yollam]

83. Oh, I know Chicago is cheaper, but it's still overpriced...

...and when you consider how much lower incomes are, and how much more one would end up spending on heating, it starts to not seem quite so cheap.

"Bumfuck Egypt" is also often abbreviated as "BFE". I try not to use that here as it might be confused with BFEE. Anyway, It also encompasses the far-flung hinterlands, which Chicago is, at least from a West Coast vantage point. I realize it's a big city. I was there 3 years ago. But it has a very open, spacious feeling, even in the city center, compared to Manhattan or San Francisco. It was November, but not nearly as cold as I had expected.

[lindisfarne]

87. Have you actually compared median salaries? the salary disparity

is much smaller than the difference in housing costs, and for many professions, there isn't much of a difference.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

93. I think "bumfuckin' egypt" is a West Coast expression

I never heard it until I moved to Oregon.

[mike_c]

110. I have lived all over the country...

...so I have lots of experience living outside of CA. I can honestly say that NorCal is one of the best places I've ever lived. I absolutely love it here.

I cannot afford a home (and I make a professional salary well above the local average). I live in a rural northern CA county-- not LA, the Bay area, Sacramento, etc-- but even here only 14 percent of residents in this county can afford a median priced home in today's market. I recently heard that in Eureka, the largest city in Humboldt County, only nine percent could afford a median home.

Moving the rest of us out of the state is not a realistic solution. I live here because my job is here and because I love this place. If I left, my job would simply be filled by someone else from outside the area who would likely be in the same position I'm in today. No doubt there are places in other western states that I would like as much, but finding them is an investment too.

My point is that real solutions probably involve some degree of economic regulation, either by requiring employers to pay local living wages or by holding down the costs of houseing and real estate. The current situation is nothing less than the Tragedy of the Commons in action-- the benefits accrue to the few who can take advantage of the situation, and the costs are borne by society as a whole.

[One_of_8]

51. It would be nice if the cost of living were less

in California, but it ain't. I live in northern California, was born in Concord and raised in Napa. Third generation California. However, I have many times contemplated moving away from this area, and out of the state altogether, because the cost of housing is through the roof. What keeps me here are my elderly parents. They're still basically healthy and independent, but that's not always going to be the case.

The advice to consider moving to a less expensive area, especially if you are young and single, isn't bad advice. Why jump all over the person who suggested it? Heck, it's not such bad advice for myself, a single mom in her 40's, except that I don't want to leave my parents behind and they won't come with me. I certainly love many things about California, but there are any number of other equally good places to live around this country, and I'm getting pretty tired of the ever-increasing population.

I'm not really aware of housing ("half of it") standing empty. I live in Sonoma County, and I am not aware of many apartments or homes for rent that remain unrented for long. Maybe in the city where you live, this is more common. Also, if someone is financially able to own two homes, and they choose not to rent out their second home for less than the market rental value, that doesn't automatically make them bad people. While it might be the nice thing to do, most people who do own a second home or a vacation cottage, want it available for their use when they go to visit the town where they own that second home.

What I've learned about living in California as a single mom is to get creative, and if one avenue doesn't work, search out another that will.

[devilgrrl]

18. What a STUPID response!

:wtf: are talking about?

[Sequoia]

50. Not stupid at all, I know exactly what he/she means.

I had rent control in SM and my landlord tried to evict me 3 times on stupid stuff. In the end, another notice the day before Thanksgiving so all during the holidays it was a nightmare. He was selling the place and trying to get us out so he could get a better price. We went to court, was offered a price so I went higher and finally agreed on something. Moved up north where the cost of living is pure murder and so for 4 years lived on meager earnings, etc. Doing a little better, but just a little bit. I can even go into the supermarket and "splurge" on frozen dinners sometimes.

[One_of_8]

56. Why do you consider that stupid?

It actually sounds like common sense to me. If you are out-priced of one area of the country, why not at least consider moving elsewhere. My heritage is Irish, and my g-g-grandparents emigrated from Ireland. They didn't want to leave their country, but they did in search of a better life. I don't think they made a stupid choice.

[MountainLaurel]

19. Jobs are a huge issue

For example, there aren't a lot of positions for copy editors open in places with a low cost of living, i.e., outside of major cities.

Also, there are personal reasons: If I were gay or a minority, there are a lot of "affordable" areas of the country where my safety would be in jeopardy. I'm not Christian, and the same issue applies.

[MadHound]

27. There are a lot of major cities outside of California

Where the cost of living is a lot lower. In addition, I know a few copy editors who manage to do the vast majority of their jobs by telecommuting.

And there are lots of places that are a lot more affordable, including in *gasp* red states that aren't homophobic, and one can live as one pleases. California isn't the end all or be all of liberalism in this country, they're simply the most well known.

Do some searching and I think that you would be pleasantly suprised:shrug:

[MountainLaurel]

29. I wasn't just speaking of CA

But all places where the cost of housing is insane.

[sweetheart]

55. In my last survey, i found the best vibes

to be in far northeastern california and south oregon,
eastern nevada and western utah (grand basin).

New mexico's been overrun by the south. They tried to take it
in the civil war and were defeated, but a new pusch since the
bush admin puts all the labs, under UT, and reverses the defeat
of the texas column commanded by H. Sibley by the colorado, and
california forces of that time. The texans were sloppy and
lost that civil war advance for 150 years until now, and now
it feels like the same ugly white men in houston.

But the california diaspora is more systemic than i realized,
that many persons have been inspired to leave and become
rootless for it.

[liberaliraqvet26]

66. Im looking at Atlanta...

fair priced housing, decent job, nightlife.

Beats the hell out of struggling in south fla

[lindisfarne]

44. CA, quite frankly, is NOT a great place to live; it's the worst place I've

ever lived. I'll be moving within a few years; I moved here for reasons that had nothing to do with it being CA, with the knowledge this was a temporary move (and that I would never be able to afford a house here (and once I saw the bad quality of construction, knew I wouldn't want to, anyhow), and as soon as I've fulfilled that goal, I'm leaving.

Southern CA may have sun and good weather, but those things do not equal 'great quality of life', in my opinion. But plenty of Californians disagree with me and choose to throw money away on exorbitant rent, rather than move out of state to a place where they can afford to buy a house (and give their kids more space to play, as well as be able to put away money for their own retirement and kids' education). I might be a little happier in No. Cal., but a number of aspects of CA that I don't like would be present there, as well.

No one should be surprised that if you live in a place where a lot of people want to live, you're going to pay a premium.

I am absolutely shocked by the prices people are willing to pay for houses that are literally shanties - a house built on a concrete slab is something I would never consider buying. And that is what the majority of houses in Southern CA are built like.

But those who want to should stay in CA and pay the premium! It's not my choice though.

[tinrobot]

54. Some people CAN'T move...

Sometimes, I'd love to leave Los Angeles to find cheaper housing, but my career and my kids are here.

I'm sure a lot of people are in the same situation. Picking up an entire family and moving is not easy.

[lindisfarne]

57. I agree. I did say "If you're single and young..." But if a family cannot

afford to buy a house and are currently throwing their money away on rent (which eats up a substantial part of their income), and doesn't foresee the situation ever changing, I'd seriously recommend moving. People across the US have careers - they don't only exist in CA. It depends in part on what one does, and in part on the degree to which one is willing to shift the focus of their career if it means improving their family's living situation. Each family has to evaluate these factors on their own. CA's schools overall aren't great, so a career shift/change may allow a family to move to a more affordable community which also has a better school system - not a small benefit!

[me b zola]

105. Images of the 'Grapes of Wrath"

Lovely. Do you realize that many of the homeowners who lost their homes in NOLA will never have the ability to own another home? Is it hundreds or thousands, in that one "incident" alone that have lost EVERYTHING with no hope of owning their own home ever again?

Your non-apologetic quips insinuating that people are in dire straights is because they are living above their means is insulting. I've lived in the mid-west where the cost of housing is half of what it is here on the West Coast---but there aren't any jobs in the mid west. How fricking hard is that to comprehend?

Reading through your posts on this topic reminds me of several conversations that I've had with my repub brother. He'll lie cheat & steal to live a comfortable life--he's a big-time insurence exec making big$$$---and will look down his nose at common people living an honnest & decent life but don't have much to show for it. He truly feels as though he is superior to others.

Failing to understand that YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, or care to understand, other people's life circumstances is also a quality that I see a lot of from Congress and is a root cause of why people are fed up with the lack of representation that they are receiving from their elected officials.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

76. Well, right now I'm trying to just save up money.

The economy here sucks, even getting a job that pays $35,000 which would not pay for a condo around here. You also need money to move.

[debbierlus]

67. Something SERIOUSLY wrong...

But, living in a million dollar house doesn't sound TOO bad!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

77. If it didn't involve my mother then it would be great.

She has no concept of privacy and will go through my stuff etc. The house itself is awesome. We have a pool, pool table, air hockey, and it's surrounded by protected land so I get to go hiking and ATVing right out of the backyard.

[Yollam]

6. But it's a boom!

So the freepers tell me...

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

7. Yeah, it's such a boom that most of my friends between 22 & 30 have

been forced to move back home.

Yay economy!

[Deja Q]

14. Corporations even more so.

All * did was tell us offshoring is good, and set up wars so we'd all enlist and get comparatively quick deaths.

(suffering and starving homeless or a quick death being blown to bits. Lovely choice. x( )

[KansDem]

33. Wow!!! Landlord and psychologist in one!

$1,100 a month doesn't sound so bad after all...

:sarcasm:

[undergroundpanther]

9. a thought...

"Dead Kennedys Let's Lynch The Landlord lyrics"

The Landlord's here to visit
They're blasting disco down below
Sez, "I'm doubling up the rent
Cos the building's condemned
You're gonna help me buy City Hall"

But we can, you know we can
But we can, you know we can
Let's lynch the landlord man

I tell them 'turn on the water'
I tell 'em 'turn on the heat'
Tells me 'All you ever do is complain'
Then they search the place when I'm not here

But we can, you know we can
Let's lynch the landlord
Let's lynch the landlord
Let's lynch the landlord man

There's rats chewin' up the kitchen
Roaches up to my knees
Turn the oven on, it smells like Dachau, yeah
Til the rain pours thru the ceiling

But we can, you know we can
Let's lynch the landlord man



And...

"Dead Kennedys Kill The Poor lyrics"

Efficiency and progress is ours once more
Now that we have the Neutron bomb
It's nice and quick and clean and gets things done
Away with excess enemy
But no less value to property
No sense in war but perfect sense at home:

The sun beams down on a brand new day
No more welfare tax to pay
Unsightly slums gone up in flashing light
Jobless millions whisked away
At last we have more room to play
All systems go to kill the poor tonight

Gonna
Kill kill kill kill Kill the poor:Tonight

Behold the sparkle of champagne
The crime rate's gone
Feel free again
O' life's a dream with you, Miss Lily White
Jane Fonda on the screen today
Convinced the liberals it's okay
So let's get dressed and dance away the night

While they:
Kill kill kill kill Kill the poor:Tonight

This is the future..Unless we say NO.ENOUGH.

[bobbieinok]

112. when we kids were little (in the 40s), we owned our house but many

of the neighbors rented. My brother in 1st grade thought a really bad swear word was 'oh landlord!'

[barbtries]

10. i live in hawthorne

and my rent's gone from $600 to $950 and i pay for gas and electric. this most recent raise in rent is $150 per month - i thought that was a huge jump for a monthly bill.

as a single mother making only $15/hour, i can testify that life is hard.

[NJCher]

13. check landlord tenant law

You guys should check landlord-tenant law in your states. I know that in my state and many others, there are limits to how much the landlord can increase the rent. In addition, a certain amount of notice has to be provided, too. A landlord can't just pull a rent raise out of a hat.

But, of course, they will if they can and that's where you and your research comes in. Look up the law in your state (even a Google of something like "landlord tenant law (your state)" will get you started.

Then you write a certified letter slapping the landlord down and reminding him or her of what the law is.




Cher

[lindisfarne]

52. Few such protections in CA. A lease protects you for the term of

the lease, but aside from protection provided by laws passed in a handful of municipalities, the landlord can increase the rent pretty steeply once the lease runs out or if you're on a month-to-month lease.

With the exception of rent protection laws in a handful of communities, if a landlord wants to increase rent, s/he can. S/he might have to do it gradually (if your municipality has limited the amount of the increase), but few places would restrict a landlord from imposing a 20% increase over the course of the year, and in the majority of municipalities, the only thing that prevents them from imposing a 500% increase is the market rate.

[JuniperLea]

16. The problem with Long Beach, CA

And many So Cal cities, is that there are very posh areas butted up against the working class areas you speak of; Long Beach is a perfect example. You have Naples Island, Belmont Shore, Belmont Heights, Bluff Park, and other areas, that have multi-million dollar homes with an ocean view. There is a lot of very, very expensive housing. The "not even a really nice town" parts are butted up against the posh neighborhoods. The same goes for Lomita, the city I where I was raised, 12 miles from Long Beach.

I bought a townhouse in Lakewood, northern neighbor to Long Beach, thinking I'd be able to eventually move back to Lomita or one of the nicer parts of Long Beach. Town homes in my complex are now going for $400k! Jeez! I wouldn't even be able to buy in my own complex now! And I don't have enough equity to move up. And if I sold, I'd end up paying more in rent than I do in mortgage payments.

Welcome to the housing bubble you've heard so much about.

And say buh-bye to the middle class.

[ThomWV]

17. She couldn't find another place for $900 a month?

Or do all rents in California start at a thousand bucks?

[REP]

20. My Rent Is Under $1K in Silicon Valley

I live in a pretty nice nice 'burb, too.

[Yollam]

23. Everything within 200 miles of the ocean, pretty much.

Even in Sacramento & Stockton, they start at around $800.

[REP]

31. Not Really.

I live about 2 miles - not 200 - from the ocean, and it's not that hard to find a place under $1K around here.

[Yollam]

32. Maybe a studio - MAYBE.

I had a tiny 2 BR basement MIL unit in SF - it was $1300, and it was a BARGAIN. When I was apartment shopping, the typical price for a low end 1 BR was $1200.

[REP]

34. I'm Not in The City

Yes, in the City, you'd pay that much - but not in all the 'burbs. You can rent an actual house for that here.

[sweetheart]

26. Displacing the working class

When i was a kid, my parents lived in malibu. It was a
working class town at the time, but as certain films and videos
sold it repeatedly as "the" place to come be richandfamous,
it has become absurdly expensive and completely changed, that i am a displaced
working class who's been forced out by high rents, and frankly
i'm happy i just walked away.

Its the new capitalist version of resettlement camps and ethnic cleansing,
just upping the rent until the lower classes are forced away, all exacerbated
by the "move to california" nightmare dream of so many films and romantic
images... like by reaching the west coast, liberalism gained wings and became
romantic (classic liberalism). And instead, so many homeless, a crowded immigrant
nightmare where space is more and more ever at a premium, that as you get old,
you can't afford space, and it closes in on you until tokyo flats seem big
enough, if there only were any around not in the gang areas that are uninhabitable
for race and urban crime.

And as the dollar collapse, capital flight to property raises the already absurd
costs in areas.

So, i guess your question reads like, why don't you move out of LA, why don't
you just move to another state where property and space grabbing are not so rampant.
yet living in california is an easy life, no snow shovelling, no icy roads, no
need for too much air con., no excessive humidity, no hurricaines, no floods, just
fires and earthquakes. People are not prepared to live in other parts of the US,
but wildfire capitalism burns its slaves out, forces them to move all over teh place
to keep a wage, and all along, it closes in on the middle classes through inflation.

[catmandu57]

30. Catch 23

To make good money one must live where the jobs are, but, if one lives where the jobs are housing is too expensive, so if one wants to live under a roof, one must live where housing is afforable.
If one lives where housing is afforable then there isn't employment equal to ones level of education and therefore compensation level.

So what do you want? live under a bridge and make good money, or, live in a house and starve? Heads you lose, tails you lose.

[Javaman]

35. 22 nt

[catmandu57]

37. No this is 23

similar to catch 22, that one was with war, death, and flying, this is for employment and housing.

[Javaman]

40. ahhhh, I stand corrected. nt

[shanti]

36. $1200 a month

for a one bedroom apt. that's what my son and his wife pay for theirs in dana point. i told my son that would pay for a MORTGAGE here in sacramento, but his wife's parents live there, so there he stays. it's outrageous.

[Momgonepostal]

38. Maybe that USED to be a mortgage in Sac, but not now

I'm in Modesto, which is cheaper and don't think any new buyers have a mortgage of $1200 unless they are putting huge amounts down.

[shanti]

42. umm, not really

a 1BR condo, even a 2BR condo, CAN be had in the sacramento suburbs. i didn't mean to say that you could get a 3BR house for 1200 in sac, but you COULD get the equivalent of a 1BR apt.

[Momgonepostal]

59. I live in a so-so condo complex and don't think...

you could buy a place right now here and come in under $1200/mo. My payment is less than that, but we bought 5 years ago. Since then, prices have almost tripled. Part of the issue with condos is they have HOA dues (ours is about $200/mo) and often the interest rates are higher because they are considered more of a risk. In our case, we also had to come up with 20% down because you can't get PMI in this complex...too many renters, high risk, they say. :eyes:

At any rate, you certainly can rent a place for less than $1200 in most valley cities.

[stepnw1f]

47. Same Here in Boston

Plenty of places for rent, just too expensive. Great economy... plenty of shit, just can't afford any of it.

[Jim Warren]

72. That's almost funny

"plenty of shit, just can't afford any of it."

If it weren't so friggin true, I'd be laughing. It goes to the point about marketers data-mining the net for customers and I think:
Yeah right, those with any money to buy their crap.

[SunDrop23]

39. What kind of country? Well it's bush country of course!

FUGWB

[stepnw1f]

46. Can't Afford to Live on my Own

And I work full-time. I guess I shouldn't have taken a chance and went to school.

[lindisfarne]

48. In So. Cal, most home owners want housing prices to stay high -

obviously, they stand to benefit when they sell.

I am thoroughly convinced that this is at least in part an explanation as to why efforts to build affordable housing using tax dollars are so difficult to get approved.

If there wasn't such a shortage of affordable housing, people's home values wouldn't be increasing so much each year.

Unfortunately, I think even left-leaning folks in So.Cal. are putting their own self-interest above the needs of all of society.

I don't see this changing anytime soon.

Developers, of course, are the other part of the equation. They want to build huge homes, rather than build 10 smaller, more affordable homes, on the same tract of land. Their explanation is that with one huge home, they can make the same (or more) profit, and they have smaller risk from being sued by the home own (if there are 10 home owners vs. 1 home owner on the same tract of land, it's far more likely that one of the 10 home owners will sue for some reason).

Of course, if CA developers built better, they'd be less likely to sue. This isn't an option they're willing to follow - cuts into their profit. Compared to new housing I've seen in a few other states, CA housing is horrible (although unfortunately, developers everywhere are moving toward the CA model). Even with tons of regulations, CA developers manage to build to a very poor standard.

I'm very shocked by what sells for $500,000 here - stuff that I wouldn't pay even $200,000 for in many other communities outside CA. Obviously, the developers are making huge profits.

[tjwash]

74. Wrong, wrong, and oh look, wrong!

I happen to own several properties here, and I'm a damn good landlord, and I want to see everyone get a fair shake. My wife also works for the county and gets people affordable housing.

And developers are not building huge houses, they are plopping condos all over the place, they just built about 900 new condos that are priced in the mid-twos within a 5 mile radius of where I live.

Don't lump all of us that love California in with these asshole real estate speculators that have messed up the market for everyone else because they don't know what the hell they are doing. When you invest in a piece of real estate, you are supposed to know that you are keeping it for at least five years, if possible 10 years minimum.

[lindisfarne]

84. What did I say that is wrong? Without a doubt, CA is one of the least

affordable states for housing. This, in spite of the fact that its population votes as one of the most liberal states. If CA liberals really believe in housing being affordable, why aren't they supporting the use of bonds and other municipal and state resources to build more affordable housing, including infill and high-density housing which promotes a "walkable neighborhood" model of housing (Seattle has followed this model to a large degree).

If I'm wrong about what I said about developers, then why aren't they building more affordable housing? Or are you saying I'm wrong about developers making huge profits?

[dysfunctional press]

53. we've been good landlords in chicago-

but when our tenant moves out at the end of this month, we're reclaiming the upstairs apartment for our own usage.

But here's the deal we've been offering- Foster/Kedzie area, North Park- 1 bedroom apartment $700- included FREE broadband internet, FREE DirecTV w/ALL premium movie channels, FREE use of basement laundry, plus basement storage space. apartment has a dishwasher, HUGH walk-in closet new kitchen/bathroom and front&back outdoor decks(2nd floor unit), heat & cooking gas included. No central air, but there is a new window unit in the bedroom. 2 cats or 1 small dog allowed. and when a tenant moved in, they could pay the security deposit in 4 monthly installments, and the lease allowed the tenant to break the lease with a 45-day notice with no penalty.

but now we're not.

[Glimmer of Hope]

60. My rent in DC just went up 10%. Last year it was 5%.

The first thing I thought of was those who are on a tight budget. There are a lot of senior citizens in my building who I am sure are going to be hurt by the increases. I have heard this is happening everywhere.

[liberaliraqvet26]

61. Same problem here in West Palm Beach FLA...

You can't get a one bedroom in a place without flying bullets by your window for under $1000 a month.

My GF went looking this weekend and can't afford to live (rent, utilities, car, insurance, student loans, etc..) on a $35000 a year salary.

Even if you play by the rules and go to college and work hard and get a decent job you still can't make it. It's a sad day in America.

[Yollam]

71. And for those who don't know WPB...

...It isn't anywhere near as glitzy as it sounds. Palm Beach, where Limbaugh keeps his vault of Oxycontin, is a world away from WPB.

[SoCalDem]

62. Hang on, Sloopy hang on...

Pretty soon a whole lot of boomers will be selling out and moving away.. We have already resigned ourselves to that fact.. When my husband retures, we will not be able to afford to live here.. We have been here since 1981, and once he rtires we will be forced to move to a cheaper place to live.. We will probably end up back in New Mexico..We could buy a place for cash (our equity in this house), and live very nicely .. If we stay here, we will just be rattling around in a 'too-big" house and paying throough the nose for everything else..

Lots of California Boomers will be downsizing and moving on...

[ecstatic]

63. The rent in Cali is outrageous, you can own a home for less than 1200 in

GA. AND you don't have to worry about earthquakes!

[Yollam]

73. I went on a trip through GA in 2003...

They were selling "Mammy" figurines in curio shops and there were filthy confederate rags flying everywhere. People in the small towns stared at my Asian wife and mixed kids in the restaurants. I would not feel comfortable in such a "culture" (for lack of a better word).

When we finally got to Asheville, NC, I felt like we'd reached an island of sanity in Jesusland.

The funny thing was that in between every billboard for Limbaugh or some Baptist church, there was a huge sign for a stripper club or smut shopon that big highway outside Atlanta. Talk about your cognitive dissonance. I've never seen such huge billboards for smut out in immoral California.

[pstokely]

109. You should see I-70 between Kansas City and Columbia

Full of billboards for Porn shops, strip joints and this giant "JESUS" Billboard

[debbierlus]

64. It is completely unsustainable

I would imagine that if it was a new owner, they needed to jack it to cover the mortgage, the prices are OUTRAGEOUS. Plus, the cost of the property taxes are soaring, so many landlords jack the rent. I am sure some are just plain greedy.

This is going to crash. What goes up will come down!

[chaska]

75. I made the decision between housing & a reasonbly acceptable lifestyle...

a year and a half ago. I can't afford CA rents. Luckily (for as long as I can stand it) I drive an eighteen wheeler and can live (after a fashion) in my truck.

Life is getting rough for those of us on the margins, ya'll.

[ourbluenation]

78. LB - not a nice town? Much of it is quite nice, thank you very much

just sayin...I grew up there and go back often, but live in Northern Cali now. Parts of LB are fab!

[bertha katzenengel]

79. Heartbreaking and infuriating - but "not even a really nice town" ?

Actually, in most places, it is. :shrug:

It is terrifying. My sister is on the bubble in Southern California (Fountain Valley) -- and she's living under the threat of our FATHER selling the house she lives in (our grandmother's, in a home) because she can only pay about 1/3 of its rental "value." :mad:

[ourbluenation]

80. Hey Bertha - my hubby went to Marina...class of 76.

we've got one of the stickers on all our cars!

[bertha katzenengel]

86. Dig it! Edison '81 here.

I see HB stickers more frequently than one might imagine out here -- in the Washington DC metro area!

:hi: neighbor

[ourbluenation]

89. 81 myself - St. Joes/St. John Bosco and a little Golden West to boot!

:hi:

[Yollam]

85. When I stayed there in a few weeks in 1991....

...there were gunshots every night, boom cars everywhere and iron bars on all the apartment complexes. No, I didn't get a great impression of Long Beach. There were oil derricks in the middle of neighborhoods and even the area down by the water seemed kind of run down. Graffiti was everywhere. I guess if you consider high crime and vandalism "nice", it was nice.

[bertha katzenengel]

88. Long Beach, like many large cities, has bad areas. Obviously you were in

one of the bad areas.

You saw a small part of the city. You needn't judge the entire city by that spot. In fact, I wish you wouldn't. I spent a great deal of my life there, either in my grandmother's house or my own apartments.

[ourbluenation]

90. Uh - sounds like you missed the nice part...

clearly

[Yollam]

95. No doubt there are nice pockets...

...same can doubtless be said of the whole LA basin megalopolis. But I did get around Long Beach quite a bit, and most of what I saw ran the gamut from kinda okay, postwar, working-class tidy, to run-down ghetto. I also spent time with acquaintances in Laguna Beach and Newport Beach, which were both lovely, and WAY beyond my means. I got a good feel of the LA area that summer, and overall, I disliked it. Traffic was bad at all hours, crime and graffiti were rampant, there was a palpable racial tension in many areas, and the sprawl is so endless as to be oppressive. I think that is one of the things I loved about SF - I could drive 1/2 mile to the Golden Gate bridge, and once I crossed it, I was out of the city, and practically in the redwoods. Not that the bay area has no traffic jams (try crossing the Bay Bridge right now:eyes:). I just didn't feel like the whole place was one big traffic jam. No way I could live in LA or one of its 'burbs.

[bertha katzenengel]

97. "No way I could live in LA or one of its 'burbs." -- so why diss it?

BTW, the bad areas are the "pockets." Maybe best now to hush about a place you only stayed in for a few weeks in 1991.

Your point about living expenses there is completely valid, of course. It's an ugly phenomenon happening at both ends of the state. The question is, what can be done?

[Yollam]

98. Repeal Prop.13 for starters.

I believe this would go a long way in deflating the housing bubble (unfortunately, that's the last thing a lot of homeowners want). Rent control, infill, build up, not out, more and better transit, all of these would help.


There is some truth to the fact that CA will always be more expensive than other states, because it is more desirable in many ways. But right now, it is inflated beyond all reason, and as I said before, the "little people" who tend to the whims of California's rich need places to live, too.


Sorry to diss your hometown. People always say bad things about my hometown, EL Paso, too, because they just passed through on Interstate 10, they think they know it.

But I am honest enough to admit that it's a poverty-stricken desert burg...

[bertha katzenengel]

100. That would be an excellent start. Problem is, it'll never happen.

I was in grade school when the unbelievably popular POS passed. I fought alongside my teachers for its defeat - as much as a young girl could fight a political fight - and cried when it passed. It was the death of music and art in the elementary school - just for starters.

[lindisfarne]

111. Wow. That must make for tense relations with your father. My sympathy.

[catzies]

82. As the world's 6th largest economy it's a tragedy all our citizens aren't

cared for and housed. It's simply inexcusable.

We should secede because we send a lot of tax dollars to the red states that we should keep and take care of our own.

I have been here since 1979. And I've only ever lived in 2 places: Miami FL (17 years from birth until '79) and Ventura County (since '79 - 27 years).

[LWolf]

91. I have one son living with me.

He's lived with me off and on; for a couple of years after high school, because he couldn't afford rent. Then for a couple of years after my divorce, as emotional support. Then when he got sole custody of his son, and the room he rented was rented for adults only. We do fine; he contributes to the household budget, and we both have help around when we need it, yet respect each other's personal space.

My oldest son, on the other hand, bounces back and forth from tiny apartments that don't hold all his music equipment but that he can afford on his own, to sharing better space with all of the risks inherent in depending on roommates. He's in California.

[lindisfarne]

108. CA is one of the most liberal states in the nation. Why aren't the

liberals doing something?
Bonds can be used to provide affordable housing contruction money without any amount of taxation.

Liberals also believe, however, that it is worthwhile use taxes to benefit society as a whole. With the 2/3 requirement in CA to increase taxes, perhaps liberals cannot get a tax through.

But why not bonds?

I honestly don't think the majority of the liberals of CA who own a home want adequate affordable housing; they are enjoying the increases in home value that comes with having a housing shortage.

As someone sayid above, we have the 6th largest economy in the world (depending on the strength of the dollar, sometimes CA is 5th, in front of France).

CA voted in favor of a $3 billion measure to support stem cell research (a vote I fully supported).
But why not $10 billion for affordable housing as well? It doesn't all have to be done at the state level. $10 billion would create about 50,000 housing units at $200,000 per unit (if smaller units were built, more could be built for the same amount. But $200,000 ought to be adequate for 3-BR units for families).

Yet CA cannot come up with a viable solution this issue and implement it? I doubt it; I don't foresee anything significant happening within the next 20 years (thus my answer is MOVE out of CA to anyone who does not foresee being able to afford a home, or who would have to take on great financial risk to buy a home (such that some unforeseen expense or job loss could put you in foreclosure before you had built up enough equity to offset the costs of selling the home)).

Over the last decade, CA housing has gotten less and less affordable: of those who do not own a home, a smaller percentage can afford a median priced home than could 5 or 10 years ago.

See this page for median home prices and median household income on a state-by-state basis. CA is not doing well and the numbers are even worse when you consider the household income vs. home cost comparison for those who do not currently own.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Banking/Homebuyingguide/P141312.asp

See here for a graph of housing affordability in CA 1994-2004. Percent of households able to purchase a median priced home went from about 42% in 1994 to 20% in 2004.
http://www.kidsdata.org/topictrends.jsp?t=25&i=3&ra=3_132

Affordability has dropped further since 2004:
http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/2005/10/california-realtors-affordability-at.html
The percentage of households in California able to afford a median-priced home stood at 14 percent in August, a 4 percentage-point decrease compared with the same period a year ago when the Index was at 18 percent, according to a report released today by the California Association of REALTORS® (C.A.R.). The August Housing Affordability Index (HAI) declined 2 percentage points compared with July, when it stood at 16 percent.
<snip>
The minimum household income needed to purchase a median-priced home at $568,890 in California in August was $133,800, based on an average effective mortgage interest rate of 5.87 percent and assuming a 20 percent downpayment. The minimum household income needed to purchase a median-priced home was up from $110,980 in August 2004, when the median price of a home was $473,520 and the prevailing interest rate was 5.83 percent.

The minimum household income needed to purchase a median-priced home at $220,000 in the U.S. in August 2005 was $51,740.

[Xithras]

113. California really isn't all that liberal.

We have a lot of Democrats in this state, but a large percentage of them are conservative Democrat farming families and Bay Area bluebloods who act liberal when you meet them but run screaming the moment the word "tax" comes up.

As for bonds, Californians wouldn't even pass bonds yesterday to tax the rich for preschool or to support our public libraries, so there's pretty much zero chance of getting some kind of housing bond passed. Since 10 billion wouldn't even dent the housing issue (try several hundred billion, minimum...land around the population centers is incredibly expensive), its pretty much dreaming to expect Californians to support anything more. The budget problems in this state have made people realize that with Prop 13, adding new bills to the states budget simply means draining money from some other part of the budget.

Besides, part of the housing problem s geographic. The LA basin and the Bay Area are built out...they are hemmed in by mountains and there is literally nowhere left to build. With those of us in the Central Valley fighting like hell to put the brakes on development here, I have to ask where you'd like to build all of those affordable houses?

[lindisfarne]

114. I know what you mean about Prop. 82 not passing - it's not even close.

It's hard to understand why it shouldn't pass; people with the incomes which it would have affected are already being undertaxed at the federal and state level. The opposition did a good job of clouding the issues. Perhaps it wasn't as well thought out as it should have been; I heard a discussion on KPCC.org about this - one speaker thought it would keep coming back at us in the future, so hopefully it will pass. CA has such a horrible K-12 education (well, not as bad as MS but bad enough) as it is - preschool education has been shown to be very effective in preparing kids who are lagging and catching them up to where they need to be.

In fill and high density housing can create a lot of housing units, even in cities. LA actually has a lot of places where high density housing could be built - it's a hugely sprawling area. While it is tougher in San Fran (which is already doing this to a small degree), for the greater bay area, it is possible.

Europe manages. Japan manages. CA can manage - if it chooses to.

Your reply backs up my statements (made in other messages in this thread) about the majority of CA liberals (who own their home) not caring much about improving the housing situation, in part because they themselves are benefiting from the rising house values. One person claimed I was "wrong wrong wrong" but I don't think I am.