Kerry's lack of fight for Ohio angers me as much now as it did in 2004.

[European Socialist]

We might have been rid of the Decider by now--but even if not, it was a fight that had to be fought. I like John Kerry but he could have made big difference in what has happened in the last 18 months--had he been a leader.

[wizdum]

1. From one Michigander to another, I feel your pain. n/t

[mod mom]

58. As one Ohioan to one Michigander (?) I not only feel your pain but have

shouldered the blame. It was an eye opener to many here how the Dems handled the situation.

[seaglass]

2. You need to let it go. n/t

[blm]

3. If you had the evidence he needed to continue, why didn't you give to him?

Because, oddly, there was no LEGAL EVIDENCE he had to make a LEGAL CASE to continue.

The math didn't even give him the cover it gave Gore in 2000.

So why are you angry about Kerry not HAVING a legal case to make?

I notice since the Rolling Stone article came out ALOT of Duers are attacking Kerry and doing so based on something he had no control of.

why aren't you outraged that the Dem infrastructure that is SUPPOSED to safeguard the voting process was allowed to be so weakened in every crucial state?

Have you addressed those ACTUALLY responsible with safeguarding our votes? Or did they switch places with Kerry and they showed up to do the debates and crafted his policy positions while HE was responsible for doing THEIR jobs?

[DoYouEverWonder]

9. I did

Not necessarily evidence that would help contest the election, but I did give the Kerry campaign prema facia evidence that proved the Bush/Cheney Campaign and the SWBVT blatantly violated election laws before the election.

Obviously, neither the Kerry Campaign or the media did much about it.

[sandnsea]

12. Did you send it to the FEC?

Post it here, we'd all love to see it.

[DoYouEverWonder]

13. The Kerry Campaign did

There were numerous threads about it at the time.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x657176

[sandnsea]

15. You said the campaign didn't do anything

They filed a complaint with the FEC. Why'd you say they didn't do anything??

[DoYouEverWonder]

17. The Kerry Campaign and others filed complaints with the FEC

before the election.

Seems the FEC ignored everyone and the Bush Campaign went on their merry way.

Don't you think it would be up to the Candidate to make it an issue that the FEC was unwilling to oversee the election and was allowing the Bush Campaign to commit fraud?

[sandnsea]

19. You said they didn't do anything

They clearly did. That's one. They made sure it got in the media, that's two. http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/20/kerry.swiftboat/ Did the teevee pundits report the FEC complaint as readily as the swift lies? No. So once again, we're back to the media.

Right now, Francine Busby is under attack over one teeny comment, the "balls and spine" grassroots are quivering again. It's really peculiar to me that the attack is posted at DU, yet Bilbray's Abramoff ties have hardly been mentioned. It happens over and over and over. Our grassroots would rather attack our candidates than the people we're fighting.

Not to mention, at least as many people said Kerry should shut up about Vietnam as were attacking him about not responding. It wouldn't have mattered what he did, the people who attack him are just mad their candidate didn't win and can't get over it. That's all there is to it - well, almost all there is to it.

[DoYouEverWonder]

22. You need to give me better reasons

to ever trust Kerry again.

The way he handled the outcome of the 2004 election, reminds me of the way he handled the BCCI investigation. The investigation was thorough and damning. Then what happened? Nothing. Heck, he didn't even mention it during the campaign. All that work collecting dust on a shelf.

Just like all the work of 1000's of Kerry supporters did to help him win, but before anyone could even begin to document what went wrong on election day, Kerry conceded. Sort of knocked the wind out the election fraud issue's sails.

Kerry promised every voted would be counted. Heck, John Edwards shook my hand and told me every vote would be counted. Kerry had the team of 200 lawyers. Kerry had the money. They knew BushCo would cheat but they were ready to fight back. Then Kerry quit and it was over.

I understand that Kerry continues to work behind the scenes but it hasn't done much good it seems. Especially since most of what he does seems to be a well kept secret. That's just the way it is for a lot of us that supported Kerry. I hope he has a distinguished career has a Senator, but I will not support him for another chance at the presidency.

In the meantime, accusations and insults do little to make folks like me change my mind.

[sandnsea]

24. It's all been posted 1,000 times too

They joined the recount, joined the lawsuits, had lawyers working in Ohio, still have lawsuits going. They did and are doing everything they could. THE EVIDENCE IS NOT THERE. That is just all there is to it. I know you'd like him to pull a magic sword out of his ass and point it in the direction of the culprits and have them crumble at the sight of his power and confess in a mass of quivering tears, but life just doesn't work that way.

This is sour grapes and nothing more. I don't know why people expect to be able to post bold-faced lies about what the campaign did or didn't do and not have them challenged, but the fact that it happens every single solitary day, two years later, indicates something more going on than disappointed Democrats. You said you gave them evidence and they didn't do anything, and that was just a bold-faced lie because they did and you knew they did when you said they didn't.

[DoYouEverWonder]

25. I spoke to my local SOE in FL at the time

(.Remember, FL was also a possible state to contest?)

She said Kerry's lawyer showed up once, sort of looked around, said everything was fine and left.

She thought it was strange that he didn't seem very interested in anything.

[sandnsea]

32. Swiftliars to FEC to OH and now to FL

lol. Good bye.

[ray of light]

34. Really? Gosh, I have information contrary to what you posted.

Lawyers WERE on the ground in FL even before the election. The lawyers were all over Florida and Ohio. AND furthermore unless your "witness's" lawyer and my lawyer are the same exact person, which is highly unlikely, it sounds like the person you dealt with really wasn't sharing with you or just wasn't in the know. And I had a friend who was in Florida (in a legal capacity) helping with the lawsuits there prior to election day.

Your facts are inaccurate as it's been posted throughout this thread.

So...stop the pity party, stop bringing up falsehoods, and instead get involved and become an election official in Florida so that maybe you would have the power to stop election fraud and supression.

[DoYouEverWonder]

35. So my local SOE wasn't in the know?

I just happen to have known her for years but what does that matter. You do know what an SOE is? Supervisor of Elections.

On top of that, now I'm a liar?

Well I guess I'll just go throw away that file draw with the results from every county in FL and all those numbers I crunched for the GD-Election forum and everything else I've done for the last 6 years to try to get BushCo out of the WH.

In the meantime, I still haven't been given any good reasons to support Kerry again. Just more personal attacks. That's not a much of way to get people to support your candidate, now is it?

[ray of light]

53. I had computer access to the results too. Not a biggy...many people did

However, your supervisor didn't speak to every single lawyer who investigated election problems before, during, and after the election. Did she? Did you? Did either of you make specific contact with your superiors or lawyers to prove that there were election problems in Florida?

Knowing her for years does nothing to help your argument. I've known many people for years. Big deal.

SOE...Duh!


And so you're a number cruncher...whooo hoo! So when you stopped crunching numbers and she stopped getting her election results, when did you find the specifics that hold up in court proving that the election was rigged? And why didn't you and your superior step forward and legally file any documents that validated the specifics of known flaws and known legal and criminal violations?


In the meantime, who cares if you vote for Kerry again or Hillary. I don't. I am too busy working on election reform in my state to give a hoot about who you decide to vote for.

Frankly, you can sit here and spin your wheels on du, it's up to you, but remember next time, it could be Feingold, Clinton, Kucinich, Kerry, or just about anyone you support who has to deal with this. So I'm not going to waste my time on your partial knowledge of the 04 election.

[DoYouEverWonder]

55. If your goal is to further alienate

disenchanted DEMS, you're doing a great job.

[karynnj]

66. and it was in some of the media at the time

You deserve a huge amount of credit for sending it to them. If they got it to both the FEC and the media - I don't see what else they could have done. It actually PROVES how unfair the election was. That should have backfired badly, as should the purple heart band aids - but the trusted talking heads signalled that it was ok to treat Kerry that way.

[blm]

21. I was referring to the legal case to continue a court challenge on Nov 3.

I do remember the swift info you were sending to Kerry's office. I wonder if they made that part of this extensive file they worked on?

[Downtown Hound]

4. Yeah but what angers me the most

is not so much that he didn't put up a fight afterwords, but before. It's not like the warnings of Diebold and voter fraud weren't being sounded. There was actually quite a campaign going on against it. But did Kerry, or the Democratic Party take them seriously? No. And that is what I find indefensible after what had already happened in 2000. How do they expect to ever win elections if they go blindly like lambs to the slaughter?

[babylonsister]

5. Your anger should be placed in the system and the cretins

that robbed us to begin with while stealing our votes.

[Botany]

6. But he had all those lawyers .....

.... I worked my ass off for him. I met the man he pulled out of the water in Vietnam ....
but his silence has been a killer on this issue. Not a few statements .... not a comment or
two about his doubts but a real loud ...... THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN GOD DAMN IT

How do you ask a person to be the last to die for a bush lie? i.e. he won the election.

[blm]

50. Unfortunately he had the same Dem election lawyers Gore had - the Dem

party infrastructure that contains all these groups who are assigned duties to cover, are always fighting what they knew from the LAST election. Terry MacAuliffe didn't believe in machine fraud and did nothing to secure the machines or train election board Democrats to do it.

Kerry is now everyone's fall guy - that's a smart distraction to cover for the REAL PROBLEMS.

[mod mom]

60. You mean like Hoffheimer who worked for the Taft (as in the family of our

convicted Republican governor) law firm?

[dailykoff]

7. One thing to keep in mind

is that until RFK's article, Kerry's never gotten much cover from the party on this issue. Do you remember the DNC election report? Basically it blew off Conyers and said the Ohio results were legit.

How could Kerry claim they weren't knowing he'd get hung out to dry?

[brainshrub]

8. He's "working behind the scenes."

By the way, I have a bridge in NY to sell you.

Interested?

[ProSense]

23. Not behind the scenes, but

working nonetheless:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1344708&mesg_id=1344708


RFK Jr. was working behind the scenes so to speak. Just because you're not involved or cannot see what's happening, doesn't mean it isn't going on!

[brainshrub]

26. "My fellow Americans, I suspect the 2004 election was stolen from me."

Has Kerry said that yet?

Nope.

Go ahead and dance all you want, but Kerry was a gutless coward when America needed him.

The RW was right: Kerry is a flip-flopping political opportunist who didn't deserve the presidency.

The tragity in all this is that Bush is even less worthy, but at least he knows how to fight back when the cookies are on the table.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: There is no dishonor in losing an election. Even the best candidates lose. But Kerry surrendered without a fight.

All you have in defense of Kerry are half-hearted legal briefs. Ohhhhh! Scarey.

[ProSense]

27. Q: Senator, what proof do you have?

A: Read this!



Are you serious?

[brainshrub]

37. What proof do you have that the Swift boat vets were lying?

In politics, if you don't fight you lose. The Swift Boat vets didn't wait for evidence, and look at everything they were able to accomplish.

Kerry didn't have to accuse anyone of fraud, he could have just waited for all the votes to be counted before surrendering. He could have demanded a recount. He could have helped the Libertarians and Greens who were insisting on an investigation.

Kerry didn't even dignify the people who were investigating the fraud for him by staying in the country when the vote came to the Senate.

Since you are a DUer, and therefore better read than most, I'm sure you've seen the Rolling Stone article by now.

The shame of Kerry isn't that he lost, or had the election stolen from him; it's that he surrendered without a fight.

[ProSense]

42. So, you want Kerry to Swiftboat the courts? n/t

[brainshrub]

57. No, just show some spine.

Was that too much to ask for?

[ProSense]

59. What exactly does that mean? There was no evidence! n/t

[brainshrub]

69. So you deny everything that Kennedy wrote in Rolling Stone?

Just asking.

[blm]

62. He could show spine, what he couldn't show was LEGAL EVIDENCE to continue.

The courts would say, thanks for showing us your spinal column, but please produce some legal evidence to continue a challenge.

[_dynamicdems]

33. How original!

[Old and In the Way]

10. Deja vu

I could have sworn I saw another one of these exact same posts on here earlier.

So when are you running to take us to the Promised Land?

[KittyWampus]

11. Proving Election Fraud Is A Catch 22. You Need Pysical Evidence To

get into the machines but you can't get into the machines without physical evidence.

[shraby]

14. Remember too, that Bush started the battle

at Fallujah immediately after the election to give him cover. If Kerry had made a big stink, he would have been accused of being unpatriotic in light of the "big battle".

[Raksha]

18. Fallujah...damn, now what would the Dems have done

about that if they'd been REPUKES, and not timid pink-tutu Democrats?

They would have raised holy living hell about Fallujah, and they would have pointed out the timing to everyone just as loud as they could and as often as they could! They would have accused BushCo of wagging the dog BIG TIME, because it's true and it's EXACTLY what they were doing! Damn, it would be so refreshing to belong to a party with some balls...I really wonder what that would be like.

[Blaukraut]

16. ok, thanks for sharing that

Now, would you please enlighten us as to what YOU would have done, had you been in JK's shoes at the time? I've tried, too, because I was upset at his concession at first. After thinking through all possible scenarios open to the Kerry camp, I reached the conclusion that none of the avenues - other than the ones he took - would have led to a desired outcome for us. I'm not talking about winning the election as an outcome, I'm talking about achieving fair and open elections, because that is in the end what we want.
Any open effort led by John Kerry would have HURT the cause, not helped it, because he would have been derided as 'sore loser', and the efforts would have been dismissed as 'sour grapes'. It would have been about John Kerry, not about us, and our democracy.
Without concrete evidence and whistleblowers, nothing was possible other than quiet, behind the scenes involvement in lawsuits and forward-looking workings for election reform. And he did/does that much.

[upi402]

20. There was news video of the lines, the Bush campaign links known

and Florida happened, as outlined by Greg Pallast.

A blind man could see it was worth suiting up for the fight one last time.
My hero fell and I'm still greiving.
:patriot:
And mad as hell at "reasonable" Dems.
Elbows to the mouth til the Chicklets bounce across the floor.
Fuck it, I want my party back!!!!

[wisteria]

28. Kerry made the best choice he could in 2004. The Repub's fixed

it so he had nothing immediate to fight with. He also had to consider what his contesting the election would do to the country at a time of war.

Answer this, what do you think would have happened- honestly, if he had contested, being 2.5 votes behind Bush and not enough sure votes in Ohio to contest and possibly win quickly? There are still court cases going on concerning the election.

[TayTay]

29. Based on what

What evidence do you have that will stand up in a court of law? Wat witnesses have come forward and signed legal affadavits? On what legal basis, steeped in reality, would you have fought and please present your hard evidence.

You can't prove a negative you know. The fact that a lot of people didn't get to vote is not proof in a court of law.

[ladjf]

30. I thought that he was a chicken shit coward for not doing anything

of substance to try to fight the bogus election in 2004. Further, he had promised that he would have a team of lawyers monitoring the elections.

[ray of light]

31. Really? So what did you do about it?

Are you running for elections
officials office so you can make sure it doesn't happen to your state? Interesting...I heard Bob Fritakis talk about how Michigan may be the next Ohio. So are you getting your friends and neighbors involved to prevent them from using antiquated but legal laws to suppress the vote and buy what ever machines they want?
Because, I'll be frank, the elections officials are powerful people who can make a difference, even at the local level.


And you can sit there like a lump on the log and bawl your eyes off because John Kerry and John Edwards didn't behave like you wanted them to. OR you can actually participate by taking care of the election problems yourself. Run for office! Put your own name at risk, just like these other Politicians do.

Now, I'm not here defending John Kerry or not defending him either. What I'm here for is to tell you to take a chance on making a real difference. Because no matter what, if you're not willing to put your own neck on the line to run for office, to be a poll watcher, or to file a lawsuit on your own behalf then you have no business whining about what others should have done in your opinion.

Really! Now how does whining help? Republicans are smart! They don't whine! They take over these elections offices. They run for any position in government,no matter how small, because by doing so they gain valuable experience which leads to more power.

So stop the pity party and do something real about it.

[MH1]

44. {{crickets}}

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/insects/orthoptera/Cricket.shtml

http://www.infovisual.info/02/045_en.html

Damn, the beginning of summer is the worst time for them, isn't it?

[ray of light]

49. {{tthese too}}

http://ipm.osu.edu/mini/96m-2.htm

http://www.sewanee.edu/biology/courses/Bio304/2002/projects/slugs/10_catch.html

http://www.sewanee.edu/biology/courses/Bio304/2002/projects/slugs/11_what_eats.html

[MH1]

52. ..

:rofl:

The beer thing does seem to work.

[ray of light]

54. ...

not quite as lively as {{crickets}} or {{these}} but there's another homeremedy for ugly things.

http://www.otan.us/webfarm/emailproject/warts.htm

[iconoclastNYC]

36. I agree. No establishment democrat in 2008!

No Warner, no Edwards, no Bayh and no Clinton.

Of those rumoured to be running I only think Feingold would fight the good fight on election fraud.

[blm]

63. He doesn't even believe the machines are a problem. He'll think McCain won

.fair and square.

[European Socialist]

38. For all of those who disagree with me--

If John Kerry could look me in the eye and say there wasn't massive cheating by the GOP in Ohio--then I would say he did the right thing.

[MH1]

39. Much of what was done wasn't illegal.

If he looked you in the eye and said that, would it suffice?

[European Socialist]

40. NO--The cheating has to be exposed.

[MH1]

41. How? nt

[European Socialist]

Surely not by saying "Bush won fair and Square".

[MH1]

45. Guess you haven't been listening.

http://audio.wegoted.com/podcasting/122105SenatorKerry.mp3

http://www.stephaniemiller.com/bits/2006_0517_kerry.mp3

Just for a couple I had handy.

[European Socialist]

46. Sorry--having some problems with my computer--couldn't download...

But, I assume it's Kerry questioning aspects of the election. He's put his toe in the water from time to time. But it has never been front and center.

[MH1]

51. He discusses the election among other things. He talks about fraud

- not sure if the f word is used, but he has used it on occasion - he talks about how people were prevented from casting their votes, and how it is disgraceful that goes on in America.

As for not being front and center, he still has a constituency to serve, and I wonder what percentage of the calls and letters to his office ask him to fix the election problems? You know one problem may be that it isn't as high a priority with his constituents, because Massachusetts isn't seen to have a problem. (I think - just speculating on that)

With things like Iraq, his leadership on small biz committee (he is ranking member), ANWR (always a signature issue for him), the problems that environmental damage is causing for Mass fishermen - one of his core constituencies, from what I gather - unless he is getting a lot of calls on it, then I don't think it's surprising that he isn't focusing on it all that often.

He did do some events around the anniversary of the Voting Rights Act, when he talked about this stuff, and also he sent out at least one appeal for the Count Every Vote Act. But as was pointed out somewhere (I think by him, but I'm not sure), as long as the rethugs are in control of Congress, any bill that gets passed is liable to have been amended to cause more problems - just like HAVA.

This is a difficult issue, on many levels.

[European Socialist]

43. delete

[WI_DEM]

47. I agree he should have fought but as for being rid of the decider

if Al Gore couldn't do it with his 32 day fight for Florida in 2000 when he actually won the popular vote--then I doubt John Kerry would have done it having lost the popular vote by over a million votes--for the same reason the US Supreme Court. Hell, in Ohio we wouldn't have even had a state court sympathetic. But that said, he should have fought anyway.

[MH1]

48. Do you want to fight? Why not fight this -

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/5/121735/6057

Longline" Blackwell Up to Antics Again

Seeks to make Voter Registration Less Accessible

For Immediate Release June 5, 2006

Contact: Brian Rothenberg, Communications Director 614-221-6563

COLUMBUS - As if his infamous voter suppression antics of 2004 weren't enough, "Longline" Ken Blackwell proposed rules Monday that significantly restrict proactive efforts to register Ohio voters.

At an 11 a.m. hearing in a Ground floor hearing room of the Rhodes State Office Tower, Blackwell's representatives heard from lawyers, including the Ohio Democratic Party, who are trying to prevent yet another gimmicky rule change making it harder for Ohioans to register and vote.

The proposed rules reference required procedures making voter registration outreach more difficult by requiring people assisting a voter registrant to have to "directly" return the form to the Board of Elections or Secretary of State's office. This severely hampers organized voter registration drives, and group registration drives including union or office registration efforts.

(snip)

Time marches on... you can either sit in a corner crying about what was, or keep fighting.

Up to you.

[zulchzulu]

56. John Conyers totally DISAGREES with your opinion

"Fighting for Every Voter"

A few more words about an issue that is of the utmost importance to me. As political candidates, we spend considerable time and effort every election cycle fighting for votes...

A few more words about an issue that is of the utmost importance to me.

As political candidates, we spend considerable time and effort every election cycle fighting for votes. After the election, whether won or lost, many candidates leave the irregularities of the election behind. But we owe the voters more than that. When voters are disenfrachised, we owe it to them to seek justice and expose the truth. That is why I have been so proud of the Kerry-Edwards campaign's ongoing involvement in the investigation and litigation of what went wrong in Ohio. I wrote to the candidates recently to ask that they continue to be involved in this important endeavor.

This is not about the past. It is about figuring out what went wrong and why -- and then getting the next election right, not for the Democratic Party, but for all of the voters.

- John Conyers

http://www.conyersblog.us/archives/00000213.htm

[European Socialist]

61. John Conyers has a $150,000 a year job--He can survive 2 and a half....

more years of Chimp. AS for me BUSHBEGONE now!! And Kerry's puny efforts didn't help much.

[ProSense]

65. You're questioning Conyers' integrity? I'm sure he has more than you! n/t

[European Socialist]

68. Not true--Conyers has done a great job. But, folks in Washington don't

have the urgency to get rid of Bush as much as people do in the rest of the country.

[Joe Fields]

64. What would you have had him do?

You know, hindsight is always 20/20. Besides, he would have been smacked down by the Supreme Court, just like Al Gore was. What bothered me more was the way he handled, or should I say didn't handle the Swiftliars.

[European Socialist]

67. He probably would have lost--But think of all the Repuke corruption that..

would have been exposed much sooner, if Kerry was forcing the media to cover the stolen election

[Joe for Clark]

70. I am with you -

Maybe he still loses -

But damn, why didn't he try???

NO MORE KERRY. He can be a Senator.

We better win this fight.

Joe