"Monkey" and "ape" are NOT racist terms....

[BlooInBloo]

... because all of the good white DUers say so...

:sarcasm:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/04/sports/soccer/04racism.html?_r=1&ei=5094&en=446ea6c36a4bbad2&hp=&ex=1149393600&partner=homepage&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

"HAMBURG, Germany, June 3 — As he left the soccer field after a club match in the eastern German city of Halle on March 25, the Nigerian forward Adebowale Ogungbure was spit upon, jeered with racial remarks and mocked with monkey noises. In rebuke, he placed two fingers under his nose to simulate a Hitler mustache and thrust his arm in a Nazi salute."

As white as I am, I'm with the Nigerian.


EDIT: This shows just how GENIUS it is to have white folks deciding what is and is not racist. It's the perfect system. Damn crybaby negroes. :sarcasm:

The saddest thing in the world is that on DU, those sarcasm tags are necessary.

[Yollam]

1. And your blanket insult against white DUers, apropos of NOTHING, is okay?

Whatever.


Sounds like a bad incident. Why you had to use it as a platform to bash white DUers is beyond me.

Hope it was fun.


Sorry for being white, I guess. :eyes:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

2. What are you talking about?

[pnwmom]

3. Who said they aren't? Obviously they're racist terms.

[BlooInBloo]

5. Hm. Here's most recent....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1323136

It's consistent though - every time black folks come up with "monkey" or "ape" nearby, DUers are more than ready to jump in with "what's racist about that?"-style remarks.

[Yollam]

7. A couple posters out of thousands, and you trash ALL white DUers?

Physician, heal thyself!

[BlooInBloo]

9. You mean all of those 1000s who so vocally lept to defend the truth?

Or some other 1000s? :sarcasm:

Evil exists because "good" people reamin silent. Silence is passive evil.

[Yollam]

11. And some evil is too trivial to mess with.

The incident with the mayor and "King Kong" is trivial. Sorry, but such a topic is not worth my time. If the locals in Cincinatti or wherever the hell it was are offended, they can vote the idiot out. Why the hell am I supposed to care about such a huge nothing?

The incident with the athlete was much more disturbing. I hope something is done to discourage such behavior, but I don't live in Germany, either - not much I can really do about that...

[BlooInBloo]

12. That says about all there is to say - thanks!

[Lost-in-FL]

19. "King Kong" was used in a racist way.

Even as some people refuse to see it that way becuase it is in fact embarrasing. That is not a "huge

nothing". Notice that Bush is not called "ape" but "Chimp" cause chimps are little cute, clever animals.

I don't see racists bigots calling blacks "chimps".

This other link is to notice that our "civil" Europians are in fact much more into racism as what we

belive here. I mean, who else would think of kidnaping native Africans or killing 6 million people cause

of being from the wrong religion?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/soccer/worldcup/2006-06-01-intolerance-cup_x.htm

[Yollam]

21. I'm not saying it's inoffensive.

I'm saying it was an offensive phrase uttered by an obscure mayor to a fire chief in what was intended to be good humor, but offended many. Such things happen an infinite number of times on a given day, it's just that this one got some attention. Nobody outside of CincinattiClevelandColumbusWhatever will remember the incident a year from now. It's trivial because no real harm was done. It's a mountain out of a molehill. Sorry, but it just is. Just because a word being used in a given way is offensive doesn't mean it amounts to anything in the grand scheme of things.

And we call Bush a chimp because he resembles one, minus the curiosity. I've seen Schwarzenegger referred to as a "gorilla", because he resembles one. These are not terms of endearment. I agree that such words should not be used against blacks in general because of their history, but for the last time, this is an obscure incident of subtle racism, not a huge incident. There is such a thing as keeping things in perspective.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

27. I never even saw the thread you're posting about.

So I guess that means I'm a racist, because I'm white and I didn't leap forward to disagree on a thread I never even saw. Whatever dude.

[BlooInBloo]

10. And I did NOT trash all white DUers...

... only the "good white" DUers...

My unedited post clearly says that.

That phrase has a history - I'm sorry if you're not familiar with it. It was used sarcastically, in my post, as it often is, actually.

[Yollam]

13. You're right, I'm not familiar with that.

And even though your "offended meter" is on such a hairtrigger about the "King Kong" remark, I suppose you wouldn't care if I addressed some negative comment to "good black DUers"?

[malaise]

14. Well I'm black and

ignorant white people have long used the monkey and ape intending to insult, but since the ape is my relative, it doesn't bother me in the least.
That was a great response from my Nigerian brother. As I wrote in the other post, I'd rather be related to the African ape than 'Chimperer the decider'and other ignorant white people.

[pnwmom]

17. thanks, BlooInBloo, I've never seen that kind of thing in a thread before.

But I agree it's racist, just like calling a woman a bitch is sexist.

Or using the word "gay" in a derogatory way (as in "that XXX is so gay!") is homophobic.

Even if the speaker wasn't fully aware of the hurtfulness, it's still a slur.

[neoblues]

4. What about "Chimp"?

Especially when intended for use as describing the genetic background/parenting/species/race of Commander Cuckoo Banannas?

[BlooInBloo]

6. Damn, Your post beat mine - else I woulda just pointed to yours.

[haab]

18. Chimp is an Ape ...

You couldn't get closer to the truth..

The only case where it isn't racist to call someone an ape..!

[Lost-in-FL]

20. Like I said earlier...

Chimps are cute clever animals sometimes humanized in circus for fun. Apes or monkies are not, they are indeed ugly and at times attack humans. That is why I don't see racists calling darker skin human beings "chimps".

[neoblues]

24. So Cute... really?

Well, not everyone entirely agrees.

First, man is an "ape" as one of the "great apes", where man is a hominid (members of the biological family Hominidae; including chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans). Second, the only way calling someone an "ape" is racist is with respect to those of black skin--wherein the "ape" reference is to the Gorilla (noting the black color, massive strength, physique (do I detect a hint of jealousy?) and similar (often vague) attributes (which aren't necessarily negative sorts of qualities--if it weren't for the presumed low intelligence of the Gorilla and it's "non-human-ness", the word might not even be an insult!))(it should be noted that such comparisons frequently include (imaginary) comparisons of other (often less attractive) attributes--even where no similarity exists, such as 'brow ridges' that simply don't exist to any real degree in most humans--and certainly to no greater degree in those with black skin).

Some researchers include Chimps and Gorillas, both, along with humans in the biological genus "Homo" (no reference to sexual orientation). Which simply means that they are closer to us than are the orangutans. It has been suggested here that Chimpanzees are cute, clever animals while Apes and monkeys are not. The example given is that "Chimps" are "humanized" (anthropomorphized) in circuses for fun. It should be noted that Chimpanzees exist in far greater numbers, cost less to feed, house and transport, and, being smaller are much more easily trained. However, it was stated that Apes and/or Monkeys are indeed "ugly" and "at times attack people". What is or is not beautiful is a personal and subjective choice and varies from person to person. Personally, I find Chimps to be the ugliest, crudest, and most gross of the bunch, while Apes are the most handsome, awesome and regal; Monkeys are variously beautifully colored, finely detailed and... cute (and Organgutans are bizarre looking, and so ugly they have a sort of dignity). I doubt there is any survey/poll of which of these animals is considered more beautiful or not. However, the insinuation of violence simply couldn't be more wrong. While all "wild" animals will attack humans given the right circumstances (more often than not involving provocation by the human), especially if kept captive in a Zoo. Overall, Gorillas in particular are strikingly peaceful, especially in nature and very rarely attack humans. Monkey's are neither large nor as intelligent as Chimpanzees and scarcely represent much of a threat. People are probably attacked by pet dogs more at a higher relative frequency than any attacks by Monkeys and the dog attacks are significantly more dangerous. Of the three, however, Chimpanzees are very much more aggressive (are actually known as the most aggressive of the apes (other than man)) against humans and their attacks are extremely dangerous and brutal (often involving adjectives such as "vicious", "gruesome", etc.). Alas, I found no reference at all to any attacks by Gibbons.

What about Monkeys? "Monkey" refers to any member of two of the three groupings of simian primates called "New World" or "Old World" monkeys. The third group refers to members of a family called Gibbons. Gibbons are sometimes called the lesser apes, and differ from great apes in being smaller, pair-bonded, in not making nests, and in certain anatomical details in which they superficially more closely resemble monkeys than the great apes.

Obviously, none of these animals is close enough to mankind to be considered members of the human race and therefore no such referance or comparison is formally "racial". However, as a matter of the component of human language where words are intentionally misused in a way intended to cause insult or cast a derogatory meaning, yes, "ape" and it's relatives have been used, and it's also true that it tends to be associated with or applied along the lines of race. In the U.S., 'ape' used in that manner, called a "racial slur", is usually intended to mean "black person" (see explanation above).

Race shouldn't be a cause for discrimination. One might be able to argue (unsuccessfully, but argue nonetheless) for discrimination based on 'culture' though, and culture sometimes tends to vary by race. I figure it's those behavioral, attitudinal and language differences as a part of the cultural difference between groups that accounts for or forms the basis for much of the predjudice and discrimination we see. Having a negative opinion of various cultural traits might be withing a person's right to have their own opinion, but when one takes such opinions, conflates them with race and extrapolates them to make judgements about people/groups and particularly individuals--it's just plain wrong. Likewise it's small-minded and immorally hurtful to engage in racial slurs, especially those involving such meaningless comparisons to innocent animals.

[bigtree]

33. you really think the racists who throw around the term to describe blacks

read the history and science of apes and have formulated some fine point based on particular characteristics of apes (gorillas) that is benignly analagous to the characteristics of some humans who happen to have dark skin and different features? What a crock.

These cretins don't know their own history and science, much less the fine points of science you describe. They use the term as a put-down, to hurt.

Sure, you can pile on science and logic to explain away anything, but to associate that with the motivations of obvious cretins is an amazing rationalization they don't deserve.

[davepc]

8. Real Sports on HBO did a segment a while back on racism at euro soccer

they had a bunch of clips of African players being heckled with bananas thrown on the field and monkey noises by the crowd.

http://www.hbo.com/realsports/stories/2005/episode.105.s4.html

Fields of Hate

In September, REAL SPORTS concluded a three-year investigation into the disturbing prevalence of racism in European soccer. The extreme fan behavior caught on camera included the mimicking of monkey sounds and the throwing of bananas anytime a black player touched the ball, as well as the waving of swastikas and open Nazi salutes. Speaking with Bryant Gumbel, players such as Thierry Henry of England's Arsenal revealed that in parts of Europe "home field advantage" has less to do with the color of one's jersey and more to do with the color of one's skin. The segment includes interviews with former English professional soccer player Carl Saunders; Piara Powar, the driving force behind Europe's largest Anti-Racism campaign; National Front leader Steve Reynolds; and Lars-Christer Olsson, CEO of UEFA, European football's governing body.


Correspondent: Bryant Gumbel
Producer: Tim Walker

[Yollam]

16. That's pathetic.

And in a way, ironic. These people apparently consider themselves superior to Africans, and yet they display in front of all their utter lack of class, breeding, or intelligence.

Pathetic.

[Asgaya Dihi]

15. The anger doesn't help

You've read my posts here I'd guess so should know that I'm aware of how screwed up and racist the system really is. There's no damned way in the world that we could have the prison system we do today without racism. If one white man in eight between 25 and 29 were in prison today we'd riot, but instead of 12.6% of us it's just 1.6% for whites so we don't notice so much. Not our problem.

Like it or not guys, that's racism. It isn't that the problem isn't there, it's that it isn't us so we just don't notice so much. Our drug laws in action, they make up 15% of the nations drug users but 74% of those sentenced to prison for a drug offense. Our drug laws, not their actions more than ours.

But, BlooInBloo, it's a hell of a lot easier to point out that our laws and actions have a clearly racist effect than it is to call someone a racist themselves. Most don't consider themselves to be, it's not like anyone asked if they'd like a racist system of laws and put it up to a vote, and on the surface the idea of safe school zones make sense at least till we put it into practice and see how they hurt urban areas more than others. The problem is as simple as most don't care to look at what we've done, the real effects of our laws.

If people don't consider themselves to be racist then calling them one just makes them defensive, we get nothing done. If instead we point out the way the system works and that the only reason it can survive is that we don't talk about it, then the racist effects of the system should be apparent without us having to accuse them.

Which do we want more, awareness and a solution or to say it straight and be right? Can't always have both, not when we make those we need to understand defensive instead.

[Chomp]

22. I don't understand this thread at all.

I'm sorry, but the shout-out-loud, sanctamonious self-righteousness of some people is just unbearable.

[Asgaya Dihi]

23. Ok, I'll try to explain

First off a lot of complaints I don't agree with either, some is just anger and being ready to take offense. But, there is a good reason the anger is there in the first place. Try to understand that and the rest makes more sense.

The fact that poverty, single mother households, and a poor education are part and parcel of growing up poor is no secret. What is more of a secret is why it's still there and why it's so hard to get past. Our drug war and prison system have a lot to do with that. While just 1.6% of whites males 25-29 are behind bars 12.6% of black men of the same age are. You can source that and more at the following. www.prisonsucks.com

This hasn't always been this way, it's grown and grown quickly over the last 30 years. It's still growing. The numbers overall for June 2004 were 724 per 100k, 702 in 2003, 686 in 2002, and so on. It's not getting better, and it's not holding level, it's getting worse. You can track the growth of the system from 1925 to 2002 as well as see an international comparison of our prison system with others at the following. Note that we imprison our own at a rate 5-8 times that of similar nations, and the heaviest burden of that falls on the blacks. It's a year out of date but the charts are useful. http://www.sentencingproject.org/pdfs/pub9036.pdf

Now looking at the rate of growth over the last 30 years, fairly level for decades then explosive growth, and looking at the distribution of that growth hitting mostly the poor and the heaviest among the blacks, put yourself in their position. They might not know the numbers, the stats, maybe they can't point to the reason, but they are under attack and they know it. Young men just aren't around, and the ones that are too often have been inside and brought bad habits home with them. Ones they didn't have when they were just a kid with a habit like they might have been in the suburbs.

The way it's expressed, no often that doesn't make sense. But the anger, yeah, that makes a hell of a lot of sense. If we'd quit treating them different just due to where they live they might not feel this way. Fact is though we do, it's our safe school zones and mandatory minimums that drive this, we live in the suburbs more spread out and they live where those zones overlap and there isn't a safe place to do anything.

The saddest part is it's so blatantly unfair and so obviously true that the only reason it ever got this bad is because it's not the white population getting hit, so we don't care so much. Our news doesn't cover it and we don't dig for facts ourselves, the only thing allowing it to continue is apathy. They see that as us not caring. Can't say I disagree, we'd care more if it was us.

Hope that helps to explain it. Yeah, they've got cause to feel attacked, even if they don't always name it right.

edit: typo

[Beelzebud]

25. I'm a "good white DUer"...

And those terms, are racist as hell to me.

so don't go painting all the fucking "good white DUers" with that broad fucking brush...

WTF...

You want to find people that actually don't think it's racist, go to the free republic with the rest of the bomb throwers...

[mdmc]

26. Adebowale Ogungbure got the best retort

dem racist probably embraced their Aryan master. As white as I am, I'm with the Nigerian.

[AspenRose]

28. As the USA goes, so goes the world

Whether we'd like to admit it or not, this administration's response to Katrina, along with the policies in Iraq, and dare I say, the *ahem* "tar baby" issue that is illegal immigration :hide: (I was trying to use it "correctly," Bloo in Bloo! :sarcasm: ) , have emboldened racists and xenophobes worldwide.

America in recent years has been a trendsetter and a role model, especially to her allies. If the rest of the world sees that America thinks it's ok to kill, ignore to let die, and harrass dark skinned people, then they will incorporate that into what is acceptable behavior for their own culture.

Remember the race riots in Australia recently? I don't even want to think about France.

It's like racists and xenophobes around the globe have been given the legitimacy and green light to raise hell in the name of nationalism, and no one with any real authority or power will stop them.

[AlCzervik]

29. 2 things--not all du'ers say so, i know the terms are racists most times

and 2, imo this is why the hard right hates evolution, they don't won't to come from apes---ie, black people.

[bigtree]

30. Darwin and his contention that certain blacks had characteristics of apes

The argument about what he meant goes back and forth over whether he was a racist or not, but there was a longstanding contention that some blacks, being in the same geographical area as apes, and having strikingly different features from whites, may have evolved from apes. Just the blacks. It was scientific theory that was furthered by the general ignorance and convenience to proponents of the theory of the lowly condition of blacks in America in Darwin's time.

Over the years it it has been convenient for some to associate the imagery of the primitive ape with blacks in their put-downs and attacks. I've experienced this in the workplace and it got pretty heavy for a time. Ape images were left in my workspace, ape dolls. I was called 'king coon' in grade-school for over a year by my classmates (2 non-whites in the entire school).

But, those who've never been on the receiving end seem to have a hard time seeing the insult in the association. The implication to me is that I'm less than human than them. It's meant to divide and hurt. It can be used in a benign, humorous way with the implication, but I don't think blacks should have to sort all of that out just to afford some non-black their fine point of humor or analogy.

[genie_weenie]

31. What's a "White" DUer or a white folk?

How's bout toning down your racism?

[goclark]

32. I'll testify to exactly what you are saying! Thank you for saying it

and I won't bother to be insulted by reading the responses.

Please wake me when the thread is over because I just can't bare to get into another DU war where I am told what is or is not RACIST to the ears and eyes of my people.

You are brave and compassionate and I admire you.

[johnaries]

34. Doesn't it depend on the context?

Many of us refer to Bush as an ape, and he's white. I myself have used the expression "I call a spade a spade" thinking of shovels - until a friend pointed out that "spade" can also be a racist term (I avoid the expression now). But I wasn't thinking in racist terms when I used it.

In the case you mention, yes, "making monkey noises" obviously was clearly racist. In the King Kong reference, he may have been thinking about other attributes of King Kong (size, power, etc.) and not the racial implications. Then again, he may not have.

What's sad is that we even have to have this discussion.

As for myself, I have never been in your shoes. I have no idea what kinds of racism you have been directly exposed to. All I ask is that if you ever see me make a statement with racial undertones, please educate me and understand that my intent was not to make a racial slur. I try to be sensitive to others feelings, but I am not perfect. But if you point it out to me, I will apologize and do my best to avoid anything offensive to you in the future.

[bigtree]

35. why do you assume the poster is defending himself

Only blacks have the provenance to talk about racism toward blacks?

[johnaries]

36. Why do you assume that is my assumption?

"Only blacks have the provenance to talk about racism toward blacks?"

When did the OP say that? He raised the question whether Whites are qualified to decide what is racist against blacks and what is not.

I contend that we should have better communication on the issue.

Wouldn't you agree that the victim is in a better position to decide if they are being victimized?

[bigtree]

37. the remark: 'As for myself, I have never been in your shoes'

What if the poster wasn't wearing the 'shoes'? Would that give his opinion that much less weight as to render it unbelievable? Should every instruction from a minority on racism be heeded as gospel?

I suggest that discussion of these issues, while enhanced by personal accounts and experiences, can be credible without the participation of the 'victims'.

Sorry that my post had an accusatory tone. It wasn't intended.

[LeftCoast]

38. Locking

This is flamebait.