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carl_pwccaman Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 03:13 AM
Original message
How NOT to appeal to religious voters...
1. By equivocating on whether there are any moral absolutes at all (arguing that even torture and rape are morally relative, thereby undermining a moral critique of Abu Ghraib/Bush Admin)
2. By claiming that your values are tolerance and equality (and forgetting about values like justice, speaking out against bullies, and defending the vulnerable)
3. By using more religious language without really knowing what it's about or sympathizing at all (pretending and patronizing will get you caught up in ignorance and you will probably be called on it)
4. By defending Muslim protesters who rioted over cartoons
5. By minimizing or denying the horrible religious extremism and tyranny of Arab states
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 03:14 AM
Response to Original message
1. ok, now who are you accusing of doing this?
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carl_pwccaman Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 04:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. Talking heads and other shallow people who are frustrated
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. And you are not linking this to any particular belief set other than that
inherit in the definition? (Read: You are not saying atheists, are you?)
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. 'or denying the horrible religious extremism and tyranny'...
And that is somehow limited to Arab states?
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carl_pwccaman Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. If you are preaching to the choir, no my post won't matter at all
But if you want to engage non-DU'ers, and if you want to address people who MIGHT vote democrat, then it won't help if you are tone-deaf to how idiotic the Musslim cartoon protesters were, or how tyrannical Arab states are.

The Bush Administration is doing horribly evil things. I can't make that point seriously if I excuse/tolerate/equivocate when some critic points out Arab tyranny or Musslim rioting over cartoons. Talking heads on TV shows who basically say we need to understand the sympathies of censorious religious rioters, are not doing the left any good.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 03:18 AM
Response to Original message
3. Good thing I'm not running for office.
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 03:19 AM by rucky
because my values are tolerance and equality


:) and to hell with any lowlife who disagrees :)

kidding - but they should be able to handle that opinion.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 03:23 AM
Response to Original message
4. I have NEVER known a liberal or secularist
to peddle moral relativism when it comes to torture and rape, so I really have no idea what you're talking about.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 03:28 AM
Response to Original message
5. How about a bunny...


You know loosen things up.

Here's the deal for the varieties of religious experiences and those otherwise mystically engaged:

...the world as we know it is ending. There will be no rapture and if there is, God is going to
be furious at those who pissed away the best deal that we know of in the universe. It's time for
humility and respect on the part of all the people of the world and certainly, it's time to back
off of pious faith demanding compliance in systems that produce ignorance on a scale unparalleled
in the history of mankind. Oppose stem cell research-you kill one of my family members; oppose birth
control, you kill and torture tens of millions; turn Jesus into a gun toting proponent of whatever
the latest war is, you profane your own purported beliefs; take a position that you're chosen and
you exclude and dehumanize those who are not, by your system.


Somebody did a survey of the religiously inclined regarding the Da Vinci Code. The theory of
the film (which I find ludicrous) was described and nearly 1/2 of the supposed believers were
ready to get on board with the theory with enough proof.

Please, the appeal is not to religious voters, they can tolerate a lot. It's to the forces of
atavism, irrationality and de humanism.

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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 03:30 AM
Response to Original message
6. I definately agree with you on the first one
Torture and rape are wrong no matter what. So clearly we beat the Bush administration on that one.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 03:32 AM
Response to Original message
7. Appealing to "religious" voters is not in anyone's best interest.
I would prefer to appeal to moral voters. Those moral voters who are devoutely religious will choose you over a false moralist pandering to a specific religious group, and those who are not religious at all will appreciate not being ignored for a special interest group. No reason to throw out all justice and reason to win a specific group.

I can't tell if your list is meant to be a slam against anti-religious Dems, liberals, or the Bush administration. I guess whichever group is reading it will find their own descriptions in it.
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carl_pwccaman Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 04:03 AM
Response to Original message
8. I oppose the Bush Administration, I want Dems to do better
That's my motivation, here.

The perception of many moderates, of many independents, of many religious people, and yes, many moral voters who are confused on politics or perhaps not informed enough to know for sure why to oppose the Republicans more thoroughly... is that democrats, liberals, the left, etc., are so relativist that they aren't willing to say that torture and rape are evil.

On DU here, is an example: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x73653

DU activists who are vehemently against torture, may be more comfortable calling it evil, at least on a protest sign. But my point in this, was to highlight perceptions of people who COULD perhaps vote Democratic (but who might not), and some of the things that lead to their perceptions.

Re: tolerance, etc.

Great values. But my point was if you stress tolerance and say nothing about standing up against bullies and defending the vulnerable, it comes across as if you're priorities are messed up, to moral or religious voters.
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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 04:56 AM
Response to Original message
12. Is That What You Think?
(1.) Some truth to this one (though it's irrelevant)... there are some religious people who cannot tolerate the idea of relative morals... I don't suppose a great many elements of the truth or reality much appeal to them. So, okay, no equivocation... everything IS relative. They can't be reached anyway, so there's precious little worry about "appealing" to them, on here or anywhere among those who cherish Democratic values.

(2.) Not so much, they don't care whether our values are tolerance and equality (or helping the poor, loving my neighbor as myself or any other "proper" "Christian" values). I doubt they give a second thought to what we believe--even presuming they could understand. In any case, if they have a problem with our values, including our preferences for the search for justice, speaking out against bullies and defending the vulnerable--whether it offends them or not is just too bad--though I doubt that they could actually mount an offensive argument against such values (without being made to look bad anyway).

(3.) The sad fact is, even the most dedicated Atheist (or infidel) among us probably knows as much or more about the typical religious American's own religion than they themselves do--and certainly lives up to the moral guidelines as well or better. Hopefully, the individuals you're referring to will indeed attempt to "call us" on our use of religious language, it would provide the opportunity for dialog. You seem to suggest that there are people here who would attempt to falsely use "religious language" without knowing what it's about or being sincere. Not likely, those who would bother use their language would usually always be truly exemplary examples of the given religion. Presuming you intend Christianity, that is still true. Obviously, however, there are many here who do not share and do not buy into the concept that a person's religious beliefs are beyond question/deserving of "sympathy" or even respect. Alas, such attitudes may very well not "appeal" to the religious out there--not that they would treat Atheists with even the smallest respect, intellectually or otherwise. Regardless of the fact some would dare question the religious beliefs of others, that doesn't mean that they will treat them (the religious Republicans) with a lack of "human" respect (though often such Republicans, neither return the favor nor show through their own words and deeds that they deserve to have either their beliefs or their humanity respected in any way).

(4.) It may be that not many are actually eager to defend Muslims over their responses to those provocative and insulting cartoons (referring to defending some of their more abusive reactions, that is), but then again, not many are interested in condemning the whole group either. In the main, they behaved much as any American Christian or religious person would in similar circumstances. Those religious Americans are just lucky that they don't face the same circumstances. Very few indeed would suggest that there was any fair justification for reacting with criminal actions or by engaging in violence. The fact is, the vast majority of Muslims didn't react that way anyway. It may seem that way, but that's just because the few who did were the ones our media covered. As as matter of fact, the foregoing is not really even a "defense", it's merely expecting rational, reasonable people to consider the whole picture with all of it's exceptions and complexities--just as they themselves would wish to be judged (if they would even submit to or tolerate being judged). It's simply not a black and white, open and shut case as many of the fundamentalist American "religious" would view it. One simply cannot judge a Billion (more) people on the actions of a few. By the way, if our take on it doesn't "appeal" to some "religious" Americans, alas... our lives don't revolve around appealing to them. When and where it's reasonable to reach out to them, we may do so--but it's not something that we're going to suppress or change our own beliefs in order to do (this sentiment also applies to the other of your items--and beyond).

(5.) Religious extremism certainly isn't limited to Arab states. Indeed, it's alive and well in America and long has been--unfortunately it's been on the increase in recent decades. The tyranny in those "Arab states" is indeed a misfortune for the people, mostly Muslims, who have to live under those governments. To the limited extent that we can, we should try to help them realize a better way with greater freedom, but alas, those are sovereign countries and it's against international law and ethics to force regime change upon them. It doesn't work well in any case. I doubt that anyone around here would deny the oppressive religious, social and governmental conditions in most of the Arab world. Still, I wouldn't be surprised at all if many would argue with your characterization of it. You attempt to frame it as though it were total and, as you say, terrible. In some ways, it may well be bad, in others, it's the way those peoples choose to live. As for their Religious "extremism", they have their extremists as well as their moderates and those who just go through the motions--though they probably face somewhat stronger social pressures to display their religion publicly. Ironic that we seem to be coming closer to resembling them all the time. As for their political oppression, again, alas. You'd probably argue that I've just done what you're commenting on--I've just "minimized" those aspects of their society and religion! Well, that's just expressing a more complete view of reality. It's not wrong to express the truth, even if it doesn't "appeal" to certain American "religious" people. We're not "apoligizing" for them--their extremists are guilty of the usual bad behaviors and a small fraction of them even engage in "terrorism" (oooh, the big scary word). Of course, in a sense, our own American religious extremists seek to do the same things--only they haven't felt it necessary to engage in terrorism on the same scale as their Arab counterparts do (I mean bombing a few abortion clinics and such, while similar, isn't really on the same scale--yet). Well, I've begun to repeat myself, so I'll move on...

Of course, I can't speak for everyone here and opinions do vary--even on the points you wrote about. Nevertheless, while I think you've missed the mark for the most part on most or all of them, I will take the chance and attempt to speak for the majority of Democrats/Progressives/Liberals and typical members of DU (and ask their forbearance as this is an admitted assumption only done for the sake of argument). Generally, it's probably fair to think that we would like to reach as many open minds on the Religious Right as are reasonable enough to take the time to find our common ground--for we believe that it's greater than has been recognized by most of them. In any case, we won't be perverting any of our values in an effort to 'appeal' to them, even making the unsubstantiated assumption that any of your points identifies any issues that would really matter very greatly to any among your group of "religious" voters.

Alas, your post probably didn't merit this much of a response, if it was even worthy of a reply. The only reason for doing so was on the off chance you simply hadn't thought it through... that you somehow weren't aware of how your whole premise buys into typical Republican (and particularly Religious Right Christian) spin. Yet the obvious presumption that we'd be desperate to pander to what can only be referred to (and this is implied in your remarks) as the 'Religious Right' (for want of a better term)(which is complete with intolerance, superiority, all or nothing/black or white perspective, as well as the supreme belief that they're both always right and the only one's who are right) makes me think I've wasted my time. Whatever the case, I don't mind.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 05:06 AM
Response to Original message
13. Ooh! Ooh! Let ME not appeal to religious voters!
I sweartamotherfuckinggod I will have the lowest religious approval EVER.

Sheesh - what a beautiful game show that would be...
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 05:16 AM
Response to Original message
14. If their own minds and souls cannot see the evil in this administration


there ARE no words big or bad or "appealing" enough to sway the "religious voter"

And are you speaking of attracting Fundy Christians? The lily-white-never-had-an-orgasm-in-their-whole-life-hate-gays-hate-wymmin-hate-dark-people-hate-sex-hate-Arab-hate-anybody-not-a-fundamentalist-like-me Christian?

Honey, they are LOST to their dream of Rapture and White Supremecy and warmongering their way to Heaven with Extreme Jeebus Gawd and his Holy M-16.

There ARE no words that can reach them.

I gave up a long time ago. Hate makes people deaf, dumb and blind.
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carl_pwccaman Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. There are reachable, confused, moderate, independent people
They WILL be alienated by equivocations about morality, but they MAY listen if you raise more of a moral challenge to the lies and torture and lack of responsibility/accountability on the right.

They WILL be turned off by more talk of tolerance and equality, the sort of rhetoric that's EASY to make, but their ears MAY perk up if there is more Democratic talk about justice, standing up to bullies, wiser use of power, planning with allies intelligently and with diplomacy instead of recklessness, making sure the legal system is consistent, etc. It's not the same at all when you tell them to tolerate, as when you say 'stand against bullying/harassment'... when you say tolerate they hear 'tolerate rapists and murders and rioters', but when you speak against homophobes who bully and harass people, they can hear that as justice and decency.

They WILL pick up on the sort of resentment and shallow misrepresentation of religion that comes with time, bitterness, and disrespect for religious people and their beliefs, and they WILL pick up on pretense, they've heard enough of it from the Right, they can certainly hear it if the Left tries it.

They WILL wonder why there is no harsh talk against people who riot over cartoons, no harsh talk over brutal Arab regimes, they MAY listen if the cartoon rioters are condemned as violent parallels to Fred Phelps.

They WILL want to know that people they vote for realize that Arabic tyrannical regimes are bad and dangerous, they don't want to elect a fool or naive person who is in denial, and they MAY listen if Saudi Arabia is revealed for the tyrannical regime that it is, friend thought it's royals are to Bush etc., if the dangerousness of the world is acknowledged.

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