Judge: It's Unconstitutional To Make Students Stand For Pledge

[The Straight Story]

Judge: It's Unconstitutional To Make Students Stand For Pledge

POSTED: 11:26 pm EDT June 1, 2006
UPDATED: 11:29 pm EDT June 1, 2006

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. -- A federal judge ruled Thursday that it is unconstitutional to require a student to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

Judge Kenneth Ryskamp also ruled that a student does not have to get a parent's permission to be excused from reciting the pledge.

The American Civil Liberties Union sued the state Board of Education and state Education Commissioner John Winn on behalf of a Boynton Beach High School student who said he was disciplined for not standing during the pledge last year.

Cameron Frazier, then a 17-year-old junior, was told by teacher Cynthia Alexandre that he was "so ungrateful and so un-American" after he twice refused to stand for the pledge in her classroom Nov. 8, the lawsuit said.

http://www.local6.com/news/9309410/detail.html

[Warren DeMontague]

1. That's right. n/t

[SammyBlue]

18. I am going to make the worst school administrator when I finish my

Master's Degree.

Seriously. . .I wouldn't have let this stupidity get this far. The School Board is wrong and I would have defended the student.

[Warren DeMontague]

21. On a larger, philosophical note

wouldn't it be nice if schools would take the time to teach kids about the Constitution, instead of forcing them to stand and recite the pledge by rote?

[havocmom]

2. Teacher tried to coerce student into making a pledge

then accused student of being un-American when free speech exercised? Teacher needs refresher course in civics AND irony. What a bot.

[knitter4democracy]

3. Darn right it is!

I didn't make my kids do it, and I taught in Catholic schools where it was required. Okay, I liked them to stand (if just to wake up), but I never made them do it or made them say anything.

[CanuckAmok]

4. As a non-American***, I cannot understand this argument.

I mean, if someone doesn't want to say the Pledge of Allegeance, or sing the National Anthem, or pray, what's the point in forcing him?

Is it in the hopes that by him actually doing it he will understand its meaning and therefore eventually want to do it?

Is it to demonstrate the belief that it really doesn't matter what one believes, as long as one appears to believe it?

Is it to demonstrate to others that one can be made to conform to societal standards to which he does not agree?

Is it to "break" any traces of rebellion or individuality?

Is it to assure the governing body that he/she has done an effective job in assuring that 100% of his/her charges are doing exactly what they're told to do?


I'm sorry if this sounds facetious; I'm genuinely curious.

I mean, Timothy McVeigh, John Walker Lindh and Ted Bundy probably stood and said the Pledge every day they were in school, too. So, did that make them better citizens than some kid who refuses?




***by stating that I'm a non-American, I don't mean to suggest that my society doesn't also have ridiculous rituals designed to stultify individualism. What I mean is that I live in a society that does not appear to put such a high value on such empty demonstrations of loyalty, and I'm genuinely curious as to why other cultures do.

[The Straight Story]

7. I think the view is, that it is 'proper' to stand and show respect

and by doing so you affirm (to others around you more than yourself) that you hold the same core values the rest of the country does (freedom, constitution, etc and so on).

I would suppose that by forcing someone to do it they hope to make them 'get with the program'.

[SammyBlue]

20. If the "core values" of our country is what Bushco is forcing down

our throats (prolonged detention, illegal war, abandonment of NOLA, Forced patriotism, xenophobia, lying, cheating, corruption, police state, vote stealing), I do not want any child to affirm that they "hold the same core values the rest of the country does."

[Warren DeMontague]

22. Yes, because nothing is more American than coerced conformity.

You know- Freedom- to do as we tell you to do!


:eyes:

[Orsino]

8. The Ticktock Man does not tolerate free thought.

If one student sits and doesn't pay attention, then the rest might start to wonder why they're being told to comply, and the whole exercise is exposed as pointless groupthink. The teacher who has been ordered to lead the activity is made to look like the mindless aparatchik he is.

[DBoon]

9. I think this started with WWI

when many Americans were recent immigrants, and their loyalty to the American intervention in that conflict was suspect.

Many German-Americans and Irish-Americans were thought to support the interests of their original homeland, not of the USA.

I think the pledge was intended to indoctrinate their children into supporting the US government and its policies, instead of feeling sympathy with their ancestral homeland.

I may be wrong here, though

[CanuckAmok]

13. Well, it certainly got Sacco and Vanzetti of the hook!

If they hadn't stood and sang the national anthem along with their neighbours at every opportunity, they may not be enjoying their golden years in the relative comfort of a state-subsidised geriatric facility in the Sunbelt.

Oh.... hang on a sec....

Forget what I just said.


An aside: When I was a kid, an instrumental version of 'O Canada' was always played at the beginning of every movie in the cinema, accompanied by a short series of vignettes showcasing the diversity and wealth of Canadian life (you know, the Queen, wheat, traffic cops, snowmobiles, Olympic high-divers, rodeos).

I don't remember anyone actually singing along to it, but I have vague recollections of some people standing during the anthem.

About ten years ago, it occured to me that, without anybody actually noticing, the movie houses had stopped playing this featurette. I mentioned it to some of my friends, and they were all like, "oh, yeah... huh, you're right! I wonder when that happened..." . I checked it out, and they had stopped running the anthem some time in the mid 1980s. There was not a single documented protest, editorial, letter to the editor or even acknowledgement that the change had occured. Nobody appeared to even notice.

I can only imagine what would have resulted in a similar situation in the US. Protestors? Boycotts? More verbal attacks on the "liberal Media", theatre bombings?

[BlooInBloo]

12. I believe the root of it for us (USA folk)....

... is the "damn godless heathen commies" back in the 50's and 60's.

It's morphed a bit since then, but I think that's the basic origin of such nonsense.

[renate]

23. ... "what's the point in forcing him?"

DING DING DING DING DING

We have a winner!

:applause:

You laid out the stupidity of this custom so much more concisely than I ever could.

[Guaranteed]

25. It's just an opportunity to put on a brown shirt, jump up, shout

JINGO! and feel superior in your Americanness.

It's just as bad and as simple as it seems.

[jrw14125]

5. uh oh, there's one of those "activist judges"....

properly applying the Constitution again. the freepers and faux will be in an uproar.

[bluestateguy]

6. The Supreme Court ruled on this issue in 1943

This ruling should have been rendered instantly, with the school district reprimanded, and forced to pay the young man's legal bills.

[DBoon]

10. In the middle of WWII, when US territory was attacked,

The US Supreme Court affirmed this right.

Something to remember when someone says 911 changed everything

[SammyBlue]

15. Barnette V. West Virginia State Board of Education quote:

"No government official, high or petty, may dictate what is orothodox in religion, nationalism or other matters of opinion."

Florida deserved to get smacked down.

[noonwitch]

11. A good ruling

I object to the pledge on religious grounds. As a christian, I am forbidden to take oaths (Matthew 5).

[in_cog_ni_to]

14. Well I'll be damned. I just went through this shit with my son's

"patriotic" teacher. She embarrassed him in front of the class and I had someone write a letter to the Superintendent, contacted the ACLU and they were going to deal with the school IF she harassed him again, which she didn't...it was all ridiculous. They believed HER bullshit LIES even though I had 3 other kids back-up my son. ANYWAY, another boy didn't stand for the pledge and the school contacted his parents to see if he had PERMISSION! He didn't and was grounded for a freakin' week because of that wench teacher. Anyhoo....we just dropped it and waited to see if she harassed my son again and she didn't.

I've decided that after next year, she's getting a letter from me telling her I KNOW she's a liar and she should be ashamed for making my son out to be a liar when, in fact, it was HER who was lying and she knows it. He'll be in 8th grade and it will be his last year at that damn school. The superintendent just flat out said he believed the teacher....he's retiring and KNEW he wouldn't have to deal with me anymore so he stood by his lying teacher. Next year, she gets an earful.

I'm bookmarking this for the next school year. I'm sure we'll be at it again the first time my son doesn't worship the flag.:eyes:

[SammyBlue]

19. I went through the same crap in my high school in upstate New York.

They were going to suspend me for "insubordination." Nice huh. My Vice Principal was all set because the witch hated my guts, my family and my political beliefs.

Too bad I'm within my rights and school isn't the military.

[rock]

16. In fact it's free speech

If you're forced to say something, then it's not freely said, and it's not free speech.

[dogday]

17. My child is young right now

and does what everyone else does. Kids don't like to be the different one..

When she grows up and decides what her politics dictate, I will stand behind her on whatever she decides.... If she does not want to stand, or say the pledge, that will be up to her, not her teacher, and not me....

[helderheid]

24. I'm a Quaker - never pledged allegiance to a country that could

go to war.