Why shouldn't the American soldiers in Iraq feel shame at this point?

[bigtree]

What is there left in their 'mission' to feel proud about? There is no war against 'terrorists' there. The 'insurgents' are mostly Iraqis looking to defend basic tenants of liberty and self-determination which Bush and his war council disregard as mere obstacles to their junta's consolidation of power.

What is there left to defend about their search and destroy missions? Where will our soldiers exercise that restraint and comity their leaders say they want them to show toward Iraqis as they are kicking in doors, rousting civilians from their homes, and locking them away indefinitely in military prisons like Abu Ghraib without charges?

Where will the fly-boys (and girls) exercise that restraint and comity as they indiscriminately fire their missiles into buildings and homes occupied by Iraqis? Will the innocents killed be listed as 'insurgents', or labeled as mere 'collateral damage' ? Or, will those who kill and maim from the air be considered murderers?

What honor is there for soldiers armed to the teeth at checkpoints who fire into cars whose drivers disobey their orders? Would we tolerate the loss of freedom of movement here in the U.S. by foreign forces, under any conditions?

There are no justifications for killings and maiming by our soldiers in Iraq of unarmed, un-threatening civilians. There never was any excuse. We are the invaders. We are the aggressors against Iraq. We are the original insurgents.

I see no point in feathering up some false pride in what our soldiers are doing there. The entire occupation is an abomination. Unfortunately, bucking up the forces is what the officers do to cajole the soldiers to continue to prosecute their misguided 'mission' in Iraq.

But I don't see much need for that from the rest of us. Outside of general respect for these soldiers lives and their well-being, and a general respect for the ultimate sacrifice of the risk of their lives and their livelihoods, they would be best served by a condemnation of their actions, not some sugar-coating to make them feel better.

I don't understand the logic behind soft-pedaling criticism of outright murder committed by these forces. If these soldiers were ordered to commit these horrible acts they should be held accountable along with their superiors. Whatever proportion of blame they should receive can be meted out by the courts.

In the meantime, these misguided and misdirected troops will ultimately benefit more from public resentment of their actions in Iraq than by cheerleading and cosseting of blame. Anything that hastens their exit from Iraq will more than compensate for some loss of pride that may come from the criticism.

edit: sp

[leftofthedial]

1. those who weren't delusional to start with

have been brainwashed

Many ARE ashamed

[bryant69]

2. I don't know

1. The Soldiers who commmitted these acts in Haditha (or in similar incidents being reported) obviously are monsters and deserve little of our respect.

2. The question is whether or not the soldiers who committed the actions haditha are representative of our force there as a whole. Are they all out there murdering innocent iraqis? I don't know that we have any hard and fast data on this, so our answer to this question will be based on what we think of Soldiers in general.

3. I, for one, am willing to believe that soldiers in Iraq have different experiences depending on where they serve. Iraq is a reasonably large place.

4. While some insurgents may be freedom fighters, focused on American Troops, others seem perfectly willing to kill Iraqi civilians.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[bigtree]

4. we have to stretch our thinking if we don't want to label all the soldiers

as accomplices to murder.

Here in the U.S. we consider that as heinous as the act itself.

[bryant69]

5. How so?

I mean the ones that covered it up, sure.

But ones that had nothing to do with the incident and served in another part of the country are accomplices?

is this based on the theory that if all of our soldiers refused to fight, we wouldn't be in Iraq, and this wouldn't have happened? Because in that sense, every American save, perhaps, children is an accomplice to these murders.

Bryant

[bigtree]

6. good, you stretched.

Me? I've had it with all of the rationality for the militarism. I'm all for general defense, but this force in Iraq doesn't represent any part of me. As far as I'm concerned, the entire army there is oppressive, no matter what their actions at this point. I would agree that there was a period of rebuilding of the damage our sanctions and bombings caused, but I'm with those in Iraq who resent all expressions of our military there.

I've expressed the notion of collective guilt here before. I do feel responsible for the violence there. It's my country that's at the head of it. That's why I protest and speak out daily. That's why I fight.

[bryant69]

8. Personally I'm tired of having to defend rationality.

But I suppose we all have our crosses to bear.

Bryant

[Raksha]

47. Obviously not.

Re >>But ones that had nothing to do with the incident and served in another part of the country are accomplices?<<

Has anybody said they are?

[Koyaanisqatsi]

3. Agreed...

As difficult as it is to accept, the truth of the matter is WE are the enemies in Iraq. The Iraqi people did not attack us on our soil. WE are illegally occupying their nation. Therefore, Any attacks on our men and women over there are, sad to say, truly justified.

This is why, if we really wish to "support our troops", we must continue demanding they come home. They are in an impossible situation now.

[treestar]

7. It is group generalization

Which is just so unnecessary. It isn't that they are all murderers or none of them are.

Among the individuals who make up the troops is every type of person and opinion, just like any other group.

Thinking in group terms in the freeper way. That is why they can only see the troops as all dyed in the wool Republicans. To them if you belong to the group, everything follows. If you are a Muslim, you want to kill us all, and so on.

[bigtree]

9. Our forces, collectively, are the danger in Iraq

Individually, each soldier is responsible for their own actions, and, to some extent, for the actions of those around them.

But, assessing responsibility may not be the same as determining blame. How far do we remove these soldiers from their participation in the occupation of Iraq? Why should rational thinking folks seperate these soldier's supporting role (at the least) in the illegal and oppressive occupation of Iraq from the violence that follows?

I'm not just isolating my objections to these handful of reported incidents. I don't see the difference between these acts and any of the other innocents killed as a result of our soldier's actions, whether ordered or not. Those numbers are obscured by slick wording about 'collateral damage' and 'reports of insurgent activity'.

The entire mission is a bloody, oppressive farce. Pride in individual conduct and accomplishment should be commended, but these are hopelessly obscured by the shameful act of our invasion and occupation.

These Iraqis' lost lives are my first concern. The only consolation for the invaders, I'm afraid, outside of any comfort and rehabilitation we can afford our misguided troops will be the prosecution of those who sent them there, and their hastened return home.

[treestar]

10. The troops maybe should not be considered responsible any

more than we are. Individually we may have not voted for and even insulted Bushco, but as a nation we are there. And with little concern for Iraqi invidivual lives, in the alleged quest to "protect ourselves" as as a nation.

[bigtree]

12. i agree with that

[mike_c]

66. whether they are all murderers is not the point....

They are all participating in an illegal war of aggression. They are serving the interests of fascism and imperialism, NOT defending the Constitution of the United States. How can anyone seriously defend their role in Iraq as being anything other than that? If that's "group generalization," can you please explain which American troops in Iraq that characterization does not apply too? Debating whether they are all murderers or whether they're unfairly maligned for it is totally beside the point. Their presence in Iraq is a crime against humanity. Isn't that enough?

As for the matter of their responsibility, I'll remind you that it was the United States that established the bankruptcy of the "just following orders" defense.

[TahitiNut]

79. Indeed. Why shouldn't ALL Americans be ashamed?

After all, are We The People not responsible for holding on to our own democracy?

[Scoody Boo]

11. Why should they?

It was not all soldiers who took part in Haditha. The rest of the soldiers and Marines are pissed at the one who took part in the Haditha incident, but won't commit hari kari over it.

They have their own missions to worry about.

[bigtree]

13. search and destroy missions?

strafing insurgent hideouts?

restricting movement of Iraqis in their own country at checkpoints?

You're right. They have their own muckraking missions to worry about, and the resulting 'collateral' casualties.

[Scoody Boo]

15. Soldiers have to restrict movements...

for their own protection. They ARE targets after all. And don't hold your breath waiting for all of them to hang themselves out of shame.

What the hell did a soldier ever do to you do to you?

[bigtree]

16. I feel shame at what our military is doing collectively in Iraq

they should also.

The invaders, armed to the teeth, are targets in Iraq? Wonder why?

I don't want any soldier to hang. frickin hyperbole.

[Scoody Boo]

18. That is where you and I differ...

I do not believe that our military is collectively going around killing innocents in Iraq.

I believe that the incidents are isolated and that when found guilty the soldiers and Marines responsible should be punished.

[bigtree]

19. the hospitals have reported civilian casualties from their engagements

since the beginning of the conflict, most denied by the military.

By collectively, I mean that these soldiers support the illegal occupation that has sparked the chaos and the violence. I'd have to suspend thought to ignore the role these soldiers play in perpetuating the violence, ordered or not.

[Scoody Boo]

21. You know...

funny thing about conflicts in areas where there are insurgencies and militias. I have a friend I served in the Rangers with. I got out after Desert Storm, he stayed in a few more years and got to serve in Somalia. He was part of the whole Blackhawk Down affair. Wound up getting shot in the face.

Almost every militia thug shot down there was called a civilian. You know why? Because they did not wear uniforms and when they were wounded, they were rushed to hospitals or aid station WITHOUT THEIR WEAPONS!

Those are a lot of the "civilians" showing up in Hospitals in Iraq.

Of course to believe that would mean that one could not sling shit at soldiers like a monkey in zoo and what is the fun in that?

[bigtree]

24. this is the type of rationalization that can only come from Americans

One man's militia thug may be another's freedom fighter. At any rate, the reports involved Iraqis who were clearly not militia. That's what sparked the reports. I'd have to spend some time digging, but most folks who've been watching this war know of these.

Btw, the only shit that's been slung here is that last remark about monkeys in a zoo.

[Scoody Boo]

27. When were you in Iraq...

to witness these events?

[bigtree]

32. such a phony defense Scoody Boo

You go right ahead believing these acts didn't occur in Fallujah and other populated towns where our forces were fighting 'insurgents' .

[Scoody Boo]

35. Well Fallujah...

seen by my own eyes when I was there in 2005, was not leveled to the ground and trampled to dust, like many apparently believe.

[bigtree]

41. I'd like to see a seperate post on that

Fallujah was a disaster.

http://dahrjamailiraq.com/weblog/archives/dispatches/000155.php#more

Here are photos: http://dahrjamailiraq.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album28&page=1

[Scoody Boo]

46. From what was told to me...

by some of the troops that fought there. Many of the civilians killed in Fallujah were killed by insurgents who took cover in their homes or were not fervent enough in their support for them.

Civilians were allowed safe passage out of Fallujah before the assault started, many thousands left and this did not set well with the insurgents who then started killing civilians who were attempting to leave. They saw abandoning Fallujah as support for the "infidel Americans."

[uppityperson]

74. never mind, just not worth it

edited to remove it all.

[blonndee]

95. Not what I heard from my army boyfriend, scoody. n/t

[Ksec]

20. You need to stop glorifying war , and the military

Because that creates a military who believes the hype. They believe theyre Gods set down on Earth to kill anyone not waving the flag and praying to the President.

Soldiers are supposed to be soldiers, not automatic heroes who only need sign the papers and become official heroes to be put up on pedestals. They see all the hoopla and start believing it. Memorial Day used to be for the fallen heroes of past wars. Now its hero worship of anyone who goes through boot camp. Honor isnt bestowed upon one until honor is earned.

A wise country doesnt glorify wars or the men who fight them.

[Scoody Boo]

22. A wise country...

does not vilefy it's own just because it can, either.

[Ksec]

29. Me saying not to glorify is hardly villification of the troops

I have villified those guys who killed babies.

Ive also said this false glorification helps create these scenarios.

[mike_c]

80. no-- a wise country vilifies it's own when they act vilely....

eom

[Xenotime]

39. Yes, but..

those military people were trained all the same. They have all commited crimes against humanity. The Iraqis are trying to take back what is theirs and they are labeled as "insurgents". Here in the states 200 years ago we called them (Wasington, Jefferson) patriots and heros. They have proved they are better than us and therefore the military soldiers take their frustration out on the locals.

[mike_c]

83. what are their missions, pray tell...?

Seriously. What is the mission in Iraq? You were there-- what was the objective of your actions?

Suppressing the insurgency? The American presence CREATES the insurgency.

Spreading democracy? Now honestly, did you do anything that might be remotely construed as "spreading democracy" in Iraq?

Keeping the peace? Again, the U.S. military is responsible for the loss of the peace-- they are the most violent element in the country. One doesn't "keep the peace" by inflaming the violence.

I'm at a loss. You mentioned "their missions"-- just what is the mission in Iraq?

[RagAss]

14. UH.....Freedom is on the March !!!!!!!!

Stop it....everything is fine !!!!!

There's always going to be someone crying about something.....

Don't be Un-American and start this questioning shit.....!!! :sarcasm:

[Ksec]

17. If my family member murdered babies , I would be.

Its always that way.

You reflect on your families reputation.

[NightOwwl]

23. Why shouldn't American men (you included) feel shame at this point?

You rape and kill women. You start wars. You are sadists who get pleasure out of hurting people. You should be hiding your head in shame instead of posting on this forum.

P.S. If there were a "Stupidest Post of the Day" award, yours would be the clear winner.

[bigtree]

26. I do

I've expressed that here in the past, to a good deal of scorn.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

25. One of the great tragedies of this war is the lasting psychological

impact that it will have on so many troops, including many who didn't participate in a massacre.

Shame, in my mind, is beyond guilt. It is a kind of self-loathing and sense of worthlessness. I wouldn't heap that on any but the worst offenders, and a lot of times they are incapable of such feelings anyhow.

All the soldiers in Iraq shouldn't feel shame. When I pause even briefly to imagine having joined the National Guard and being called up to fight in Iraq, then serving 3 rotations in what must be becoming clear to them like the rest of us is an insane war. No wonder so many of them take their own lives.

It is sad, this volunteer army, which often pulls in people less financially endowed. Truly I think it would be nightmarish to be over there and feel so stuck in something you don't believe in or have some dawning sense of the massive wrongness.

Should John Kerry and Wes Clark have felt shame for the Mai Lai massacre?

No.

Things get kinda fuzzy in war, even in wars in which there is a clear consensus as to the legitimacy, morality etc of the war.

So many of the young men and women who come home intact physically, come home suffering from PTSD and other emotional demons.

The last thing the great majority need is to be encouraged to feel shame for actions they themselves didn't take.

[Scoody Boo]

30. No shame or self loathing...

for me after my time there. I get plenty of that from other people who do not approve of my motives for going. I do not subject to any of that from myself, just too vain for that I guess.

[Catrina]

76. How sad! I wouldn't call it vain though ~ but it really doesn't matter

what you or anyone here in the US thinks. Americans are becoming more irrelevant everyday thanks this administration and its supporters. There aren't too many people left in the world who pay much attention to what we think.

The judgement of the world is what counts and the fact that this supposedly great super-power can't win a war against a small country, already disarmed after one war and 12 years of sanctions for all their tough talk, is a shame in itself ~ tough talk means little when you look at the facts.

Much as I oppose this war, if it was going to be fought at all, I expected it to be over a long time ago. It doesn't give me much confidence in our military strength ~ should we ever actually need to fight a war in self defense.

Thank god the American people are finally waking up. There will be hell to pay soon for those liars who got us into this. I hope it's not too late to save what's left of this once great country.

Too bad you don't have the capacity to feel shame that your country is now despised by the world. Every soldier I know has told me that this war is one huge mistake from start to finish.

Funny how when you were in Fallujah nothing bad happened. But so many others who were there disagree with you. I'll take the word of the hundreds, maybe thousands of witnesses, including doctors, nurses, (those who were shot dead) reporters, photographers, and the civilians who survived, over a couple of people who have a vested interest in trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

As for the glorification of all things military, this is one of the few civilized countries in the world that is so fixated on the military.

[bigtree]

31. funny though, as removed as I am from the conflict

I feel shame, beyond guilt. I think our nation and all of our citizens will need to work for generations to undo the damage our nation has caused with our military.

But, if you want to set a place aside for soldiers then so be it. Me? I'm shamed by the deliberate and 'collateral' killings and maiming.

I don't think troops should be crippled by it. Obviously one is ultimately responsible for their own actions, circumstances. But, even in that there is room to assume responsibility for the world around you. Only as much as one can bear, but there shouldn't be harm in aspiring to be better, to do better, and to expect the same from those you afilliate yourself with.

Is denial the only way to alleviate the burden these soldiers will bear from the war? I would think that acceptance of reality would be one of the first steps to recovery. The reality is that the organization they are an integral part of is engaged in an immoral war. Prettying it up for those who are prosecuting and supporting it will do little to change the reality of their complicity.

[Scoody Boo]

33. Would expecting the same shame...

to affect all Muslims for the actions of a few on 9-11 be just as well recieved by you? Since obviously you expect the soldiers and the US to be judged by the actions of a few Marines in Haditha, should it not be fair turnabout to judge Muslims on the events of 9-11?

The civilians in the WTC were no more guilty of anything than the civilians in Haditha. Or were they?

[bigtree]

38. Some did feel shame about acts committed in their religon's name

That should have, and did, motivate them to condem the perpetrators and act against them.

To act as if shame is such a crippling thing is ridiculous. It doesn't dishonor anyone to suggest they should be ashamed of horrible acts committed in their name, by members of an organization they are affiliated with.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

45. Shame as you conceive it isn't a crippling thing. However for

people suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and other dissociative disorders, it is something entirely different. It can't be conceived of without experiencing it oneself or at least without knowing someone well who has experienced it.

[bigtree]

49. I don't think my use of the word 'shame' contributes to their pain

or my opinion that they should feel shame. To saddle me with blame for their stress is ludicrous. I didn't order them there. I don't want them there. I work everyday to bring them home.

You want me to suspend how I feel out of deference for the emotional needs of the troops? I refuse to put concern for these soldiers' emotional needs above the needs and concerns of the citizens their forces are oppressing. If shame and revulsion at the mission of these troops hastens support for their return then they will be well-served by the criticism.

Btw, I have room in my heart for concern for both.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

53. Oh there you go again bigtree.

It all depends on what you say and to whom and when.

But again, I didn't say the things you're saying I did.



Btw, I have room in my heart for concern for both.

I'm heartened to know that.

[mike_c]

72. you just don't get it, do you...?

The whole war is a crime against humanity, a war of aggression. Your comparison to "all Muslims being ashamed after 9/11" is pathetic-- being Muslim isn't a crime. Wars of aggression are.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

34. You can't be responding to my post, cause you speak to points I never

made or tried to make.

I said nothing about prettying up the war or denying reality.

Or anything else that you argue against, so I'm not responding any further.

You do seem more than ready to judge, lecture, and "inform" everyone else, it seems.

[bigtree]

44. i'm sorry Humor_In_Cuneiform

can't imagine why I'm so defensive

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

50. I guess you felt like you got jumped on pretty hard and fast for

putting forth your ideas for discussion?

That is regrettable.

Clearly the whole topic is a hot button for our people.

[bigtree]

54. to be fair, I expected it.

I profoundly respect the feelings of those who want to give these troops every benefit of their support. I too support these troops, no matter how I feel about their mission and their responsibility for the violence.

It should be a 'hot button', but, I should be able to defend my position without expressing undue recrimination or scorn.

[Karenina]

37. May I respectfully disagree?

ANY AMERICAN who is incapable of processing the SHAMEFUL, ATROCIOUS, MISANTHROPIC, IMPERIALIST GREED and POWER/RESOURCE GRAB that is the foundation of this despicable INVASION has bought into the most heinous deceit EVER. It is an affront to every core value we claim. Would that the troops had the spiritual wherewithall to throw down their weapons and DEMAND to be returned to their homes. There ARE historical precedents for such an action.

NO AMERICAN has ANY "right or reason" to kill an Afghan or Iraqi. "Because THEY told me to" also has a history.

That stated, I GRIEVE for the outrageous abuse being meted out by the *MIC which has utterly destroyed the lives, families and futures of MILLIONS. It is NOT any American's JOB to commit murder for the obscene profit of an avaricious ruling class.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

40. I don't see any reason why what I wrote in my post cannot be

held in belief along with much of what you write, honestly.

Because I feel compassion for the plight of the troops does not mean I didn't oppose the war before it began, or feel utter revulsion at the current regime in our own nation.

The regime without values that lives on hate. They talk about ripples of kindness that spread out from a kind deed. Unfortunately it isn't only kindness, but also hatred that sends out ripples to far away regions.

I have been ashamed, appalled, enraged, overwhelmed by what has been done by my own country, and therefore to some extent in my name.

[Karenina]

52. Oh, Dearest H_I_C

I do apologize if my rant-on mode caused any misunderstanding. I have a close relative who is charged with saving Vets' lives. I have many ex-pat Iraqi neighbors from whom I've heard the REAL straight and skinny since the beginning of this *FUBAR clusterfuck.

My consternation comes from a sense that American citizens AND troops behave like a battered spouse. There comes a time where one MUST, for the sake of self-preservation, say FULL STOP. I don't see it happening and it pains me so deeply.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

59. Is okay. Your phrasing made it easy to respond to.

[Scoody Boo]

43. So, the soldiers doing this...

would be allowed safe passage out of Iraq by the people they are fighting?

If the soldiers are processing anything in Iraq it is, is that an AK-47? Is it pointed at me? Is that paint can by the side of the road a marker for the guy detonating the IED? Soldiers really do not need to be processing anymore than that.

[Karenina]

55. And THAT, SB

is the root of the problem.

WHY THE FUCKING HELL are they "fighting" them? FOR WHAT? FOR WHOM? WHOSE INTERESTS ARE BEING SERVED???

[tjwash]

28. Yeah, well it's real easy to judge while you are sitting at a keyboard...

...eight thousand miles away isn't it? :eyes:

I suggest you take a little time to MAYBE try to walk a mile in their shoes before you try to gather up a lynch-mob and scream "BABY-KILLER" at these guys as they get off of the airplane after three straight tours away from home.

Take a young kid fresh out of high school, fill his head in boot camp with "kill all the arabs you see" brainwashing, send him out thousands of miles away from everything that he knows to a harsh and alien environment for years, with no clear cut objective, no real goal, and where everyone there hates his guts. Add to that, the "enemy" looks exactly like the people he is supposed to be there helping, and they seamlessly meld back into the populace after striking them.

Then mix in a healthy dose of shell-shock, sleep deprivation, gunshots, explosions, and watching their buddies heads, arms, and legs getting blown off on a daily basis, arm them to the teeth, and you get these types of results. We have been here before you know. The Vietnam war started out just the same way as this one, and is shaping up to be exactly this way as well. We came home from that, only to be greeted with the same harsh attitude against us, that you seem to be so matter-of-factly displaying right now in your OP.

I have a whole lot more I could write here to you, but, screw-it your just not worth the effort...

[bigtree]

36. it isn't easy for me, and I will continue to judge

as long as I'm a citizen of this country.

I haven't screamed anything, much less baby-killer. I've expressed these feelings here after much thought and discussion. I'm sorry that you disagree. It's not a manifesto. I'm not taking any of this to the streets. I'm expressing it here, in the place where I've curried favor and sought out folks to relate to. This stance, I'm certain will cause some to shun my posts. Iwas careful to write only what I feel. I'm certain I'm not alone.

I think these troop's lives are important. I anguish over their well-being. But, I also anguish about the people who are at the mercy of their organization's violence. We invaded. The deference should be with the victims of our nation's imperialism, but you want me to focus on the problems of the occupying force. I do care about these soldiers, but I abhor the mission they are prosecuting. I worry for the citizens of Iraq.

I won't be swayed by cracks about writing on a computer. That's got to be the most dishonest defense out there, to suggest I shouldn't criticize because I'm not there. Only supporters get to register their judgements?

[Raksha]

51. Sheesh, now I know how those stupid rumors about Vietnam

got started.

Re >>I suggest you take a little time to MAYBE try to walk a mile in their shoes before you try to gather up a lynch-mob and scream "BABY-KILLER" at these guys as they get off of the airplane after three straight tours away from home.<<

WHO exactly has been screaming "baby killer" at a returning vet? We now have about 90,000 members on DU, and I bet you won't find a single one of them who would even consider doing that. Just because we aren't willing to declare every American soldier in Iraq INNOCENT because of PTSD and bad leadership doesn't mean we're a lynch mob!!!

[Scoody Boo]

56. "Babykiller" has been spewed on this very site...

when a friend of mine told, what he thought was a friendly audience of fellow DUers, his daughter had been wounded in Iraq. One of the first responses was "How many babies did she kill?"

The post was promptly deleted, but screencaps do exist and turned up at the "other" place.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

57. And it was a dreadful legacy of the Vietnam war, that the troops

were not treated respectfully coming home from that war.

One of the reasons many of us try very hard to not fall into that kind of mentality, and do go out of our way to differentiate the top of the chain of command from the troops. To support the troops, but not the CIC or the war.

[Raksha]

61. I wonder if that was really a DUer or a troll.

It's hard to imagine anyone here being that callous, especially after hearing his daughter had been wounded.

[Scoody Boo]

63. It was a member with 1000+ posts.

The ensuing flamewar wound up getting both my friend, the "babykiller" poster and a couple of other members banned.

[U4ikLefty]

86. Got the name or a link???

[Ms. Clio]

96. Just another freeper troll with pathetic fantasies & perverted arguments

What a loser.

[DemonFighterLives]

42. Paula Zahn apparently feeling shame

She was reporting on 4 different incidents, Haditha, the pregnant woman shot and others.
The whole damn war is stupid and has accomplished nothing but enriching a few companies.
The regime (our regime) is causing undue stress to Iraq and America and it's own military men.
The killing has gone far enough, time to get the hell out of there, er past time.
:argh:

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

48. Amen to that. The opportunity to fix what we broke seems to be

gone and all that is left is redeployment as Murtha and Wes Clark say.

[DemonFighterLives]

60. Some type of change for sure

Here we just sent another 5,000 troops wasn't it. I just shook my head, it means more death all around and possibly Iran too.
D*bco needs to be removed from office!

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

62. I know. I know. It is incredibly frustrating to have to watch

as a possible rerun, but worse, may be unfolding with Iran.

They should all be impeached, their election declared null, and the Dems installed instead.

Why must we wait for disaster to come, or the midterm elections. I know, I know. So Pelosi, a Democrat will be in line as the Speaker of the House.

Do we have time to wait?

Rhetorical questions that haunt me and probably a lot of us.

[bloom]

58. Sugar-coating, cheerleading

what soldiers are doing in Iraq - in our name - is a bunch of nonsense.

If people can't see that invading, occupying and killing people in other countries (or our own, either way) - is bad - then I don't know what to tell them.

I guess they've been brainwashed too.

I'm sure it's easier to feel good about one's self if you think what a great job our military is doing - no matter what they are doing. What power we/they have. :nuke:

[Seabiscuit]

64. I've learned my lesson. I'll keep my mouth shut from now on

when it comes to the behavior of our troops in Iraq.

The record speaks for itself.

I've already had 3 posts removed by the mods today. I'm not sure why, but I guess they have their reasons.

[Tom Joad]

65. I feel proud of those that resist this war.

I feel compassion for all those in Iraq, no matter their views. I feel contempt for the President who lied to them.

But i think we need to honor those who refuse, including this officer who has chosen to resist.

See this thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1339631

[alittlelark]

67. 95+% should feel NO SHAME.

They have done nothing wrong. They were in the wrong enlistment office at the wrong time under a VERY WRONG Commander in Chief.

They likely feel disgust, helplessness, regret..... I hope those that have followed the mandated codes in the military feel NO SHAME.

The other 5% or so are different story. Those w/ bad/political intentions will pick out groups of...uh, 5%ers to do the really dirty work

See this thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x92532

It got sent to the Sept. 11 dungeon, but it explains A LOT!

[Laurab]

68. Well said - I would think it's a very small percentage

capable of doing things like that. A large percentage doesn't want to be there, knows we SHOULDN'T be there, and wouldn't be capable of the heinous acts that are being reported.

To paint them all with the same brush is unfair. My (step) nephew is there - he's a refueler. He told me before the election that we shouldn't be there, and that everyone he knew in the military was praying Kerry would win. He was a poor kid with no real prospects, so he chose the military. I think you have to be pretty bright to become a Conscientious Objector, and really, he isn't. Nor did he have any parental guidance.

So, he just does his job, worries about health insurance for his kid, and was terrified about going to Iraq. He just wants to come home alive, he had NO animosity toward anyone in Iraq, just talked about being worried about roadside bombs, kind of matter-of-factly.

I think a kid like that is more representative of the military, that and the ones who signed up after 9/11, only to be caught in a web of deceit, and feel stuck now. My nephew was trained to be a refueler - not a "killing machine". God knows what's happening to him over there.

I'm aware there are some who enjoy killing and "blowing stuff up" - my daughter was unfortunate enough to meet a young kid who couldn't wait to go BACK and kill some more. I believe that mentality is a VERY small percentage of the military, but it exists.

The people who should feel guilt probably often won't, and unfortunately, many who shouldn't, will suffer with it for the rest of their lives.

[mike_c]

69. they have participated in a shameful war of aggression....

Why should they be guiltless? I think they should be very ashamed. They have destroyed America-- it might take a while for all the shoes to drop, but it will happen. The war against Iraq is utterly shameful. History will never forgive us for what we have done.

[alittlelark]

70. THEY should only feel shame if THEY did something

to be ashamed of. Being young, naive and poor they joined. They have NO reason to feel shame unless they themselves have lost their humanity - at which point they would not recognize 'shame'.

[mike_c]

71. they are each and every one participating in a crime against humanity....

You don't find that cause for shame?

[alittlelark]

73. With that logic you and I are engaging in a crime against humanity

every time we pay ANY taxes - sales tax on bread, soc sec, federal..... They almost all end up inthe same ENRONIZED coffer. It all funds the war machine that sends these poor kids to war w/ little to no armor. Until you have stormed the bastille that is the WHITE HOUSE you are personally responsible......


That is true only if you believe that the US Troops should all be shamed.


Shame on YOU. Really.

[Solon]

75. Actually, that is true, technically...

and because it is true the United States, and all of its citizens and troops, should pay reparations to the Iraqis. This would be similar to how Germany had to pay for their unwarranted agression against surrounding nations during WW2. In this regard, we are no different, we so far have CONQUERED two countries in the world and working on the third, and people still say that we aren't an Empire. Its ridiculous to say that none of us have a responsibility here.

[mike_c]

77. then I presume you disagree that the war against Iraq is a crime....

You mentioned logic in your last reply, so let's examine the logic. I contend that:

1. The war against Iraq is a war of aggression, and by definition a crime against humanity under international law (and U.S. law via treaty, e.g. the U.N. Charter).

2. The U.S. troops in Iraq are participating in the war against Iraq.

It follows then that if (1) and (2) are true:

3. The U.S. troops in Iraq are participating in a crime against humanity.

Since we wouldn't be having this discussion if (2) weren't manifestly true, I can only conclude that you disagree with (1).

Do you think the war against Iraq is justified by America's right to self defense, as Bush argues?

[alittlelark]

78. The war is a crime and 95% of our soldiers should not feel any Shame.

I seem to be repeating the same thing over and over here.

[mike_c]

81. you seem to be not getting it over and over....

If the war is a crime, what do you call the people who are committing it? Honorable?

Can you simply face any of this without resorting to blind support for whatever American troops do, no matter how bad?

You say "the war is a crime." How then are U.S. troops not participating in a crime against humanity? Why do you think that's not shameful?

[bigtree]

82. I don't see how you separate the crime from the force that committed it

I don't know any way except outright denial. That's not healthy.

I can't imagine any benefit that would come from lying to soldiers or anyone else about their complicity in the illegal and immoral invasion and occupation of Iraq. I'm all for recognizing individual accomplishments. The medical corps come to mind. Individual acts of selflessness and heroism are commendable. Certainly there are outstanding instances of these from our forces throughout the conflict.

However, that 95% figure doesn't ring true if you consider the support these forces provide to the operation that does the muckraking, that creates the atmosphere for the violence, that perpetuates the war and increases the likelihood of more killings of Iraqis.

There is also the added dimension of a nation, assumed to be independent from that of its occupier, whose citizens are not being allowed self-determination and freedom of activity without rebuke or recrimination from the U.S. forces. Who are we to say who is insurgent, or even to dictate the order of their rebellion? The attitude of our forces toward the Iraqis is one of warden to prisoner. Master to slave.

Remember 'freedom is slavery?' War is peace? When do YOU expect that our soldiers will cease to control the lives of Iraqis? When do you expect that our forces will discontinue their 'insurgent' raids into residential centers? When do you expect that our forces will discontinue the indiscriminate bombing raids on neighborhoods where' insurgents' are suspected to be hiding?

When our forces discontinue these and come home, they will cease to be a threat to Iraqis outside of our leader's arming and training of Iraqis for more war.

Until then, if soldiers in Iraq remain affiliated with the U.S. military, the vast majority of their actions will continue to both support and perpetuate the crime of the bloody, illegal occupation and the resulting casualties, innocent and otherwise
.

[Ksec]

84. Lets remember where the real villification belongs

Directly on the guy who lied to get us into a urban combat war in which they were warned of these things happening.

This falls right on bush's doorstep.

[DemonFighterLives]

87. Yes the knucklehead in chief

Who thought it was all good. He felt so good he stuffed a sock in his pants and strutted around on the aircraft carrier. The deaths just keep ticking off with no worries from dubco.
Don't worry, be happy!
:kick:

[BlooInBloo]

85. DUers are generally scared shitless to criticize the military....

... and its members - no matter what they do...

They've been browbeaten for years about their lack of support of "the troops" - since Vietnam. Now Democrats & DUers have basically capitulated - and refuse to do anything that remotely smacks of "criticizing the troops". This naturally ends them up in the odd position of at once decrying the war in large part due to its effects on the civilian population, while at the same time going all loosey-goosey on criticizing - and even, at times, defending - the very people performing these actions.

Our side is to scared to *discriminate* between the murderers and the rapists in the military, and the plain ol decent "Joe soldier". The fear is understandable, because no matter how much WE discriminate between the two cases, we know for DAMN sure that the republicans WON'T, when they misreport what we say. But it's one thing to render an action *understandable*, and quite another to render the action as *justified*. It's still craven and cowardly of our side to refuse to criticize specific troops when they do wrong.

Of course the commanders deserve criticism as well - there's plenty to go around. I don't focus on that here, because "passing the buck" up to the commanders is DU's favorite way to avoid sanctioning the actual troops who perpetrate these crimes. When it comes to Nazis, DUers don't for a second buy the "just following orders" defense. It's too bad the same cannot be said when it comes to US soldiers.

Don't be scared folks - it's PERFECTLY APPROPRIATE to demand punishment of all the grunts who participated in the various war crimes. You're STILL supporting the troops.

Don't be scared.

[bigtree]

89. anyone who's followed my posts knows of my support for the soldiers

That's where I decided to start my activism against this war way back in 2003, on the side of the soldiers. I maintain a resource site called Returning Soldiers (http://www.returningsoldiers.us/). At the first protest in D.C. I gave away countless t-shirts I had made with 'Support our Returning Soldiers' on the front, and a peace sign on the back to an appreciative crowd.

I joined community action groups against the war, stood on our local street corner with the Friends, all the while pushing the needs and concerns of soldiers to suspicious and wary peace activists. Never got any traction with those groups. It was just too much for these peace loving folks to put their energy into soldier love. Not that they weren't sympathetic, just mostly disinterested. I really felt isolated by my support. There were the anti-war vet groups that I associated with, they were inspirational. But among the regular protesters and activists I encountered, support for the soldiers didn't give me the kind of partnerships that I had been used to in my past protests and activism before BushII.

Indeed, on DU I felt a stand-offish response when I raised my concerns for the troops. Understandably so, as the troops were the instruments of the violence we were opposing. I didn't get the kind of overwhelming response to the concerns I raised about the troops' well-being that I expected. Still, there has been a marked increase in sympathy and support for the troops expressed here in the past year or so, which, btw, has eclipsed my own activism to the point where I don't feel so desperate and solitary in my activism about those concerns. It has been very satisfying to see the outpouring of support here for the soldiers.

One of my favorite points was the noise here about who supports soldiers, and whether DU'ers support the troops. The response to that was overwhelmingly positive and, I think fostered an atmosphere that is far from hostile, and very understanding of the contradictions and compromises these soldiers are living with as the perform their dangerous duty. That attitude has not been lost in the resentment of the war, and most of the focus of DU's ire has been rightly focused on the president and the leadership which allows the war to continue.

But, I have to live with the other side of my concern, which is the activism against war and violence that has been the focus of my adult life. I'm not a soldier, I'm mostly still a hippie. I realized at the start of this conflict that it would be too indulgent to focus on just the warmongers on office. My first thought by a late fire was that we shouldn't let the republicans divide us. That's why I chose the soldiers as the point of my activism. That's why I maintain that support today.

But, that support doesn't include my silence about the violence or stifling of criticism of their bloody mission. I feel complicit. I feel they are complicit. What level of responsibility would I assign them? I think that should be clear. I ultimately blame those who sent them there.

But, this post wasn't about all of that. It was this old hippy's time to speak to the violence committed by those I have been holding in my hands all these years that I anguished over the killings and maiming. I hope folks will allow me this without too much recrimination. I really do have a need to speak out about how I feel about the troops' violence. I needed to vent. Not a manifesto. Not a published article. Just an airing among the folks I so deeply respect.

I really do appreciate the support for our troops. My efforts over the past three years bear that out.

Thanks to everyone for allowing me this without too much recrimination, and thanks to everyone who has taken the time to remind me about the unfairness and complication of these soldiers' role in Iraq and elsewhere.

And thank you BlooInBloo for your thoughtful comments.

[SeaBob]

91. Military

Remember there is a big difference between criticizingthe political leaders and for getting us into this war and criticizing the soldiers for trying to do their jobs and getting killed while trying.

[BlooInBloo]

93. Perfect case in point.

[Imagevision]

88. Rumsfeld was sleeping to allow this to out, won't happen again though

[SeaBob]

90. Soldiers

By your argument theworkers at GM or boeing shold feel shame because their leaders are screwed up. your post is uninformed and insulting to many people who are trying to do the right thing. They may hold different views than your own. However there is no need to insult people who are trying to do a very difficult job with lousy leadership at the top. Unless you have been there you really dont know what you are talking about.

[bigtree]

92. All of that has been fleshed out in this post and responded to

you really didn't bother to read my words too deeply did you? Sounds like you are responding out of your own head. That's fine.

My character is certainly fair game as I criticize others. But, I reject the notion that I 'don't know what I'm talking about. I posted my feelings. I know these very well.

My post was not meant as an insult. I'm sorry you see it as one. It is about my view of the soldiers' responsibility for the violence in Iraq. I stand by what I've written. I haven't come to this quickly or without some insight.

I mentioned several times that I feel complicit in the killings by virtue of my American citizenship. That's why I fight and agitate against the war.

I also support the well-being and anguish over the safety of our soldiers. These I know well.

[JVS]

94. Shame? That's soooo 16th century!