Sadly, the Haditha massacre is only a small scale

[ConsAreLiars]

mirror of the whole war against the people of Iraq.

What those dehumanized individuals did in Haditha is only one bloody drop in barrels of human blood. A couple hundred Vietnamese men, women and children slaughtered at My Lai helped the people of the US see what was being done to millions in Vietnam. It put a face to some of the horror of what was being done by cold-hearted monsters like McCain from a distance and in particular by the representative of multinational capital who sent them to that war. The blood spilled at Haditha, up close and personal, is no less emblematic of the larger war. The purpose of this invasion, like all others, is to terrorize the people of that land into submission, and this is just one example. Maybe Haditha will wake up the people of the US, as did My Lai, eventually. Maybe.

But this was not an "exception." This form of terrorism was the purpose of the horrifyingly named "shock and awe" beginning of this war, and of every cruise missile launched or bombing or Apache helicopter mission. Every participant in this war of conquest has as much blood on their hands as those who murdered the innocents at Haditha or My Lai. The just don't see their victims, and this is the only difference between them and those at Haditha.

And yet they are all equally innocent. They cope, or not, as best they can. They follow orders, or not, as best they can. They do what their circumstances compel them to do. They do the best they can, or not. They were trained to kill and to regard "them" as less than human, and they were trained well. Those Marines at Haditha are no different than people like McCain who murder innocents at a distance, other than for actually seeing what they had done.

Those who see what they have done will be forever scarred, and those who refuse to see what they have done will be less human as a result. They are victims as well, all of them. They will live with shame, if they face the truth of their actions, or they will live half lives surrounded by a shell of delusion.

The truly guilty are those who sent them. They are the true monsters. They are the ones who declared that extending corporate power was justification for mass murder on a scale that only war can accomplish. They were the ones who deciding on indoctrinating the people of the US and in particular those who would serve. This particular massacre is one of many, not only inevitable, but almost trivial in the larger picture, which was nothing other than premeditated slaughter on a grand scale.

While it is easy to feel outrage at those committed this particular atrocity, and justified, it is might also be a time to cry for them and what they have lost.

[babylonsister]

1. McCain was a POW in Vietnam. He's now a POS, but he does

deserve to be known for that, so I'm not getting your reference.

[ConsAreLiars]

3. He dropped bombs on innocents in a war of aggression.

Those he murdered were no less human than those at Haditha. Being captured and serving a few years of hard time does not exonerate him, or make those he killed any less dead or innocent than those at Haditha. He murdered far more than those Marines. Condemn those Marines, yes, but McCain looks them look like amateurs when it come to mass killings.

[babylonsister]

4. I can't refight the VN war. What's going on now is NOW and

has to be addressed and stopped. I do get your point though.

[TahitiNut]

2. How many times did a 'smart' bomb kill as many or more innocent Iraqis?

At least 'smart' bombs don't get angry. At least 'smart' bombs don't panic. In the military, bombs and soldiers are both weapons designed to kill - and neither is infallible. Both do what they're told to do - usually. At least bambs can't be stop-lossed. Bombs never get "Dear Smart" letters from wives or girlfriends. Bombs don't care when another bomb explodes prematurely.

The result of military combat is death - and has been forever. The only 'improvement' is in making more death with less effort - and less danger to those who sponsor death. The United States of Enronica committed a crime against peace in invading and occupying Iraq - based on lies. We are an outlaw nation.

[ConsAreLiars]

5. And bombs, or those who send them, never face the reality

of what they have done. Those who act coldly and murder innocents at a distance are no less responsible than those who go over the edge and act in panic or fear. More responsible, in fact. As you say, killing is what war is about. Those who decide to start a war, those who give the orders, those who push the buttons, those who never get their hands dirty -- they are the true monsters. Those who go berserk are responsible for what they have done, yes, but far less than those who put them there.

[Scoody Boo]

6. At least the car bombers can't use that excuse...

their targets are civilians all along.

[ConsAreLiars]

8. Which of the Iraqi dead do you regard as "justified" murders?

Every one who the US has murdered in Iraq was a "non-combatant" until the PNAC psychopaths decided to invade that country. Every one, in the military, in some cult of fanatics like those US policy has now put in control there, every child -- all of these were innocent civilians before this murderous slaughter began. Every death in Iraq is the consequence of the invasion. Every car bombing is the direct consequence of a thoroughly evil act of aggression by those who control the US government. Put the blame where it belongs.

[Scoody Boo]

9. I believe that every soldier and insurgent...

has it in him to not pull the trigger on an innocent. NO matter whether the war was legal or not. You DON'T HAVE TO kill civilians. In the end, the person setting off the car bomb in a crowd of civilians has the option to not set the car bomb off in a crowd of children.

Non-combatants stop being non-combatants when they aim weapons at soldiers.

I did not kill anyone in Iraq (at least I don't think I did), but I did fire at people working on suspicious shit by the roads to make them scamper off. Every single time that happened, it turned out to be IEDs being placed.

How cruel of me, not letting them kill me like I was supposed to.

[ConsAreLiars]

11. You are fortunate.

But every death of Iraqis was a crime. There is no justification for you or any other person to be shooting at them, dropping bombs on them, or slaughtering them en masse. None. The guilt is not in the munitions or their handlers. The guilt is with those who deployed the munitions and the personnel. If you had killed, it would have been as a much your fault as the bullet's. That was what I was trying to say in the original post.

But invaders cannot expect immunity, and if Iragi's tried to kill you, then they at least had the justification of defending their country and people from foreign invaders. What justification do you think the US had for killing them?

[Scoody Boo]

12. If I had killed anyone...

It would have been because they were placing an IED. Whatever their reasons, that they were trying to kill me was justification enough for me to prevent it.

Don't attempt to kill me and I won't shoot at you. I don't care how justified they felt in doing so. I don't care how illegal the war is, who in their family was blown up or what, do not shoot at me or place bombs to blow me up, and I will not shoot at them.

Once you are there, the politics matter little. You shoot at those who would shoot at or shot at you or tried to blow you up. That is all it comes down to.

[ConsAreLiars]

13. Of course.

Survival uber alles. You should not have been sent there.

As a part of an invading army in a war of agression, you could only try to maintain your sense of right and wrong in that context. And I am glad you wewe able to do so.

But when the war itself is a crime against humanity, as is this one, then all those who are killed, on both sides, are victims of those who caused the war. The true monsters are those who initiated that war. All who died, Iraqis or foreigners, are equally victims of those who decided that killing people in Iraq (regardless of uniform or affiliation) would serve the interests of corporate capitalism.

[Scoody Boo]

14. I was not sent there...

I went there with a security company.

[flyarm]

19. OH ..ONE OF *HES MERCENARIES?? WELL WE SEND OUR TROOPS

to die in a sand pit making $900.00 a month while * sends corp mercenaries making big bucks to go die as well...and i know i read somewhere * has sent over steriods for our soldiers...so now..who is the new Saddam?? ..yeah ....we replaced evil Saddam with corporate evil!!

aren't we the brave and proud!!

this disgusts me..

a woman got down on her knees and begged for her childs life and she and her child were shot point blank range in the brain...

tell me how that is ever justified...

just try to tell me that..in their own home...

and does anyone possibly think we are not creating the next insurgents going to plant ied's ??

i can assure you of this..if anyone did to my family.. what we are doing to the iraqi families.i would build an ied that hopefully would wipe out anyone who perpetrated this murder on my family,,and i bet alot of other americans would do the same!

bullshit is bullshit...

i would question anyone who would go to another country and make $$$ over the deaths of the innocent!

this war was started on filthy lies and continues today on filthy lies..when do we as a people say no more??

when???

fuck the corporate filth that goes over there for profit..fuk the corporations that * has set up to steal the iraqi oil, fuck the assholes who go over there as mercenaries...fuck the greedy son of a bitches that see nothing but profit over the deaths of women and children...

i am disgusted not only with this war..but i am disgusted by the war profiteers, and the american people that we sit so silent when this is done in our name...

we should be over running washington streets..we should be mad as hell ..instead this country was full of parades and parties all last weekend ..when the people of iraq are living with depleted uranium, water with shit in it, electric that is sporatic at best, and their nation has been destroyed ..all the while * is building an embassy with all the modern wonderments ..and bigger than the Vatican...and not with the labor of iraqi's but with Kwaities..(sp?)

i hate my own country today..and i never thought i could ever say that!

it pains me to say that..but its how i feel!

and i feel it so much i turned my flag upside down and flew it all weekend..on my 36 ft pole...

and all weekend people stopped and told me my flag was upside down..and i explained that my country and countrymen are upside down and totally fucked up..to allow the killing fields of iraq...

tell me someone..what makes us better than Saddam..we have an evil empire that is trying to assassinate the pres of venezuela , and bolivia...who stole a oil rich nation..and we have the nerve to even attempt to justify this??

there is no justification folks..none..we had no buisness going into iraq..we have no business killing her people..period, the end...it was all predicated on filthy lies..you know it..i know it,..and more important the iraqi people know it..in fact, the whole worlds people know it!

and now systematically our troops... in our name.. are killing innocent women and children..murdering them..and it is covered up and hidden by this insane sob in our white house..and what do we do about it..we turn on our boob tube and listen to that mother fucker scarboro make excuses for it all..well he says ..it was done before..in every fucking war..well this was a war of lies..just like vietnam was a war of lies..
people will not sit back.. while an evil empire trys to take their country from them for greed..just like we would not...human nature says..fight for your back yard and your family's survival.....and if that means IED"S what choice do iraqi's have to keep the evil occupier out of their backyard and from murdering their familes??

fucking wake up people...

i have nothing but shame and disgust for the nation i used to be proud of..

fly

[TahitiNut]

20. Word! Amen.

Engaging in war for monetary gain ... it's moral necrophilia. Nauseating.

[Scoody Boo]

21. I find a woman and child being murdered...

while on their knees sickening. I do, just as I find a car bomb going off in a market place or outside a mosque and killing dozens of civilians sickening.

You say that you would become an insurgent if your family was killed by troops, does that mean you would target your neighbors or the soldiers?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

22. Jesus Christ...

I think I need a shower. :scared:

A merc on our board.

[Solon]

27. I can't even believe he ADMITS it...

Seriously, do Mob hitmen brag about this shit? Actually they do, maybe I shouldn't be surprised.

[Scoody Boo]

30. I did not go Iraq to kill anybody.

In fact what I wanted to do least in Iraq was kill anyone.

[Solon]

26. You were a FUCKING MERC!!!!!????

Why the fuck are you commenting on this thread at all? Murder for profit is disgusting, I can't believe you would even say you were justified. To answer your question YES you should have let them kill you!

[Scoody Boo]

29. Do you have any idea what a Merc is?

Mercenaries are hired to perform OFFENSIVE operations. Basically to go in and run operations.

Security Contractors have a very narrowly defined DEFENSIVE mission. They do not go on patrols or conduct offensive operations in anyway shape or form.

The company I was with specialized in convoy escort. We did not go out looking to kill people.

Murder for hire is not what Security contractors are about.

[Solon]

31. No, mercenaries are soldiers hired for military operations...

and are not part of regular armed forces. It doesn't matter if you label it defensive or offensive, you aided, materially, in the oppression of a nation for nothing more than a paycheck, and even worse, you did it out of choice. :puke:

[Scoody Boo]

32. All of our soldiers...

who have enlisted in the Military since the begining of the war (thousands of them) have made the same choice. Do they sicken you as well?

Yes I made a choice to go and like I have said before, I did not kill anyone while several people were were ecorting did.

Killing was not what we were hired for. We were not there to oppress anyone. All my company did was escort convoys from one place to another and disarm the IEDs that we found along the way.

We did not even leave our routes to chase anyone even when fired upon (which was often). Instead our method of dealing with hostilities was to speed away.

Our rules of engagement were very narrowly defined. We would fire at people setting objects on the side of the road who would not move away (these turned out to be IEDs everytime) and we would fire back at people who ambushed us as we sped away. Usually just to get them to get their heads down.

I do not think I ever hit anyone.

[Solon]

33. For the soldiers that signed up after war was started...

yes, they disgust me, how else am I supposed to react? As far as your "Rules of Engagement", I don't really believe you, why should I? Mercs rank a little below Mafia Hitmen, and only a Little above Child Molesters to me.

[marions ghost]

18. yes

this war is a crime against humanity. You have said it well:

"The true monsters are those who initiated that war."

This is what Americans must realize. That this kind of war is not acceptable...ever. We must hold our leaders accountable for it.

[Tom Bombadil]

25. Scoody

what is your take on this passage taken from an article in the Guardian? I suppose you believe events like this were out of the ordinary?

Iraq vet Jody Casey speaking out after his return from the war:-

He says that soldiers who served in his area before his unit's arrival recommended them to keep spades on their vehicles so that if they killed innocent Iraqis, they could throw a spade off them to give the appearance that the dead Iraqi was digging a hole for a roadside bomb.

Casey says he didn't participate in any such killings himself, but claims the pervasive atmosphere was that "you could basically kill whoever you wanted - it was that easy. You did not even have to get off and dig a hole or anything. All you had to do was have some kind of picture. You're driving down the road at three in the morning. There's a guy on the side of the road, you shoot him ... you throw a shovel off."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1741699,00.html

[Scoody Boo]

28. I do believe it to be out of the ordinary...

I take it like I do the "throw down gun" stories. Maybe it is what guys are told to do if they fuck up, but I don't take it to mean kill everyone you see and throw a shovel down.

If anything, great care was exercised by American troops not to shoot innocents. On more than one occassion I saw troops fire over the heads of Iraqis acting suspiciously on the side of the road to make them scamper off and what they were working on was setting an IED.

It was something the contractor I worked with always stressed. Don't shoot anybody. I had to fire my weapon to chase off people setting IEDs by the side of the road myself.

A common insurgent trick is to have a woman and a couple of kids along so it would look like a family. I know of one incident when a set up just like this exploded prematurely killing the bomber, a woman and two kids who were part of the ruse. They laughingly tried to blame it on an American mortar attack.

[TahitiNut]

7. All the weapons of war - bombs, bullets, soldiers - are used up and ...

... destroyed when they're used. Commodities. Just as the bombs themselves are destroyed when used, so are the human beings. It's the closest thing I know to 'resurrection' - when a soldier (miraculously?) regains his humanity after being converted and used as a weapon of war by his nation.

In a democracy, the People cannot pretend to escape accountability by hiding behind the gory glory of some monarch. Every day, hour, and minute the criminal Bushoilini regime holds the authority delegated only by The People, we are an outlaw nation - a nation of war criminals. We are losing our humanity. Can a nation resurrect itself?

:shrug:

[Scoody Boo]

10. A nation has to be dead to be ressurected...

has yet to happen to us. Though I am sure it not for lack of you wishing it to be so.

[ProfessorGAC]

15. Insulting Others. How Attractive A Way To Get Someone To. . .

. . .see your POV. Tahitinut is a veteran of wartime. He has been there, done that. He doesn't wish the U.S. dead. He fought to keep it alive. Although he's wiser now and sees smarter and less aggressive ways to do that.

Try to respect your elders, and always respect your betters.

The Professor

[Scoody Boo]

16. I am a combat veteran also...

ducked bullets of my own in Panama and got chased by SCUDs falling out of the sky in Desert Storm.

I will apologize for being to harsh though. I was out of line.

[ProfessorGAC]

17. I Wasn't Doubting You

You, however, insulted a friend of mine, and a fellow veteran of yours. I'm sure T'nut will appreciate your apology.
The Professor

[TahitiNut]

24. !

:pals: :yourock:

[TahitiNut]

23. Zombies only think they're alive.

When we lose that which makes us human, when we think that whom someone loves is one of our greatest 'problems,' when we rape other nations, when we feed upon the corpses of our youngest and most abused, when we value a deposit to our bank account higher than the lives of human beings, when we count our own semblance of life as worth more than the lives of tens, hundreds, or thousands of others, when we gladly profit from human misery and suffering ... we have become the "living dead" - soulless zombies spreading only death and destruction.

:shrug: