Regardless if you are for or against abortion--you should support CHOICE

[Horse with no Name]

I made this point in another post which seems to not have gotten any response.
I feel it is important, because CHOICE and PRIVACY to make those choices pertains to ALL women, regardless of how you feel about abortion.
In China, female fetuses are aborted. This isn't an abortion issue. It is a CHOICE issue.
The families--the women in particular--have no say whether or not they wish to carry a female child. The government makes the choice for them.
Only males.
When we can embrace the fact that in today's political climate, while fascism is struggling to take hold in our country, trying to steer the debate and stating that this is ALL about abortion--well basically, the women that believe that, are stupid.
They want to take away your right to choose what you can and cannot do with your body. In essence, making your body a property of the state.
Right now, they want you to believe that all they will do is force you to carry a baby against your will.
What happens when fascism sets in and they decide that they can force you to have an abortion against your will?
It's ALL about CHOICE.
It's up to women whether or not they are willing to allow the government to make their choices for them or if they feel they are capable of making their own CHOICES.
Remember, it's not always gonna be about today. There is tomorrow to think about.
Would be pretty sad if you really wanted and longed for a child, got pregnant and oops! It wasn't the sex of the month. Here is your card. Go have your abortion.
When I fight for CHOICE, I fight to keep yours intact too.

[JuniperLea]

1. Exactly!

I could never do it, myself. But I'll be damned if anyone has the right to tell a woman she can't do it in a hospital! The back alley clinics, and I use the word "clinic" loosely, will have a huge surge in business if this is overturned.

[liberalnurse]

9. We need more discussion of your talking points.

You go Juniperx!:bounce:

The Roe vs Wade Decision was about CHOICE and safe health care. Abortions will not stop because the Supreme Court outlaws this...........So, how many women will be in our local jails for having an abortion? Will the County Jails be able to maintain the health care cost of "botched" abortions? Will the County Jails absorb the cost of hysterectomies?????

It's a real case scenario.

[JuniperLea]

15. We need statistics from the pre- Roe vs Wade era

It is about choice, period. You can be personally anti-abortion and still see the absolute need for keeping the choice available. And you are so right, this crosses over into many areas. Increased health care alone could be a strong argument. Unregulated procedures, unregulated sanitary conditions, no access to after-care. Women will die without question, and our already over-taxed health system will be inundated with infection cases.

The statistics used to pass Roe vs Wade need revisited and revised to reflect the current population and changes in society's perspective. No matter what the RWingers say, or the Fundies, the stigma of abortion is no where near what it was and I think that needs to be taken into account.

[Bjornsdotter]

2. Yes

This has been my arguement all along....CHOICE.

Recommended!

Cheers!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Can't agree with you more

I'm listening to Al Franken and he was talking about DeLay and another congressman supporting slave labor in a US territory (forget the name) where women were forced into prostitution and were forced to have abortions if they got pregnant. They did it for the money-and the power it gives them over others. That's why CHOICE is so very important.

[Horse with no Name]

5. Too many people think R v W is about abortion

They just can't think past their Bibles.

[liberalnurse]

I seriously doubt they

understand the Bible.....they just use it as a social shield.

[Horse with no Name]

19. True

The main theme of the New Testament is forgiveness and these fuckers STILL haven't forgiven Ted Kennedy and it has been almost 40 years.

[LynneSin]

4. I don't want no fricking abortions

but that's my choice. I'm not making it for anyone else but me. What you choose is your choice, not for me to decide!

[Arkansas Granny]

6. I totally agree with you. It is all about choice.

I have never had an abortion, nor can I imagine what circumstances under which I would have decided to have one. That was my choice. I cannot make that choice for any other woman and I will not condemn any woman for making a choice different than my own.

[BlacknBlue in Red NC]

7. Here's what I've always said: If you're against abortion, don't have one.

But, don't make my decision about my body and my life for me!

The pro-lifers are all about abolishing abortion, but are they also about adopting the huge number of unwanted babies which will result? I seriously doubt most of them have even given that a thought.

[MADem]

8. It is also all about control of your person when making a medical decision

You can be damn sure if they find a way to extrapolate this law requiring the removal of gonads from males with genetic defects to ensure that they don't produce offspring that will cost the taxpayers a fortune, there would be a whole different take on this issue. But, so long as it is only the females who are being put under the thumb of these balding, paunchy, self-righteous assholes, that's just hunky-dory.

This whole bullshit about a man plus a woman = baby is also nonsense. There are three things at play--the man, the woman, and the womb! Without the womb, there is no opportunity to host a fetus. And the owner of the womb is the female, so she gets two votes...as far as I am concerned, the majority rules!

It's just NO ONE ELSE'S business. For the life of me I cannot understand why people feel compelled to inject themselves into this very personal decision.

[BlacknBlue in Red NC]

10. Well said.

[Horse with no Name]

12. With abortion off the table

Forced sterilization will be one of their next ventures.
I mean, they REALLY only want a surplus of white babies.

[sarcasmo]

28. I disagree, Porn is their next venture.

[DanCa]

11. More than abortion

Prolife is an attempt to blend elements within protestantism and catholicism into one conservative national church. Its a trojan horse that has no place with in government. Trust me once roe is gone they'll stop at nothing from regulating science and medicine. Dont believe there was a bill in texas that was deffeated that fined people ten grand for mentioning stem cell research. I dont have the link on me if you want it give me a few hours.
These people are a scary scary bunch and I have had the misfortune of being called an embryo farmer and a toddler killer all because I want to live a parkinson free life. "Prolife," heh these freaks dont know the meaning of the word.

[liberal N proud]

13. Here is my thing - I can't force anyone to follow my beliefs

For one, I as a man can not tell a woman that she must carry that child, it is not my body to do that with.
Regardless of how I feel toward abortions, it is not my body to make that decision.
Second, Making it illegal isn't going to stop abortions, it is just going to make them unsafe and dangerous. Yes some women will fell pressure to follow the law, but there are many who will go to some back alley doctor and have an abortion performed and will get infections and have other complications.

Now the sensible thing for all these fundies would be to keep the abortions legal and then those who oppose them should practice their freedom of speech (while we still have it) and proclaim their position. This must be done without harassing someone on the way into a clinic.
If they convince some one from having an abortion OK but stop trying to force people to follow your beliefs. That just pisses me off.

[DanCa]

17. well said.

And it makes my skin crawl when they say that you dont fit thier deffinition of a christian. I agree with you Liberal N Proud that's why I tell people I am pro neutral.

[uppityperson]

14. Choice is necessary.

We need to have the choice remain legal, whether we ever use it or not. It is a basic principal, a basic right, like freedom of speech (I disagree with what you say but will fight for your right to continue to do so, however that quote goes). Basic rights. Choice.

[keep CHOICES legal]

16. Having "choices" (plural) casts a broader net...

I agree with you. The Democrats need to widen their argument about America's need to choose. It doesn't ONLY have to be about abortion (although that is an extremely important part of it.)

This country was founded because previously (in England) their choices had been eliminated... in all areas of their lives. Now we are seeing the same thing happen in America...our choices are being eliminated.

If the doctrine of "ONLY ONE choice" prevails, America's foundation for democracy will die.

In ALL areas......Keep CHOICES legal.

[jsamuel]

18. that is why I call the other people supporters of "NO-CHOICE"

[TahitiNut]

20. This is where I DISAGREED with Roe v. Wade.

Roe v. Wade established government sovereignty over human reproduction in even making rules regarding abortion under various conditions, including the length of the pregnancy. When government proclaims such sovereignty, they not only permit themselves to prohibit an abortion but also establish the basis upon which they can require an abortion. Nothing is more personal than human reproduction. What the (so-called) "right-to-life" advocates must realize is that surrendering individual sovereignty over reproduction is a step toward autocratic eugenics. A prohibition of abortion today becomes the imposition of an abortion tomorrow, once the precedent establishes sovereignty.

With national health care on the horizon (it's unavoidable), all manner of intrusions into personal issues raise their ugly head. After all, if you can be denied a job because your spouse smokes cigarettes what's to say all our personal activities won't come under surveillance and governmental control?

[CrispyQ]

21. The slippery slope of the choice issue is that it revolves around

abortion now, but in the future, what other procedures will we not be allowed to have? Or worse, the reverse of choice, the state can make you have a procedure you don't want to have.

This country is going in a direction that would horrify our founding fathers.

[dogday]

22. This is not about Abortion, this is about individual choice

and if this right of choice is denied, what right will be next? Do not be deceived by the abortion topic, this is to white-wash the real reason behind taking away our individual rights...

[mondo joe]

23. I'm strongly pro choice, but there is a fatal flaw in your reasoning.

And I think you'd see that flaw if you said "Regardless if you are for or against slavery you should support CHOICE".

Or if you said "Regardless if you are for or against clitordectomy of children you should support CHOICE".

People who are opposed to abortion are opposed to it ever happening. It's not a philisophical point for most -- they consider it murder. You'd never suggest anyone be pro-choice about murder, would you?

Again, I am very strongly pro choice. But I think it's worth trying to understand the perspective of the other side, however much I disagree with it.

[Horse with no Name]

24. Perhaps I should say Reproductive Choice?

There are always at least two choices.
If you take away one, you can just as easily at some point in the future take away the other.

[mondo joe]

25. Again, for people who think abortion is murder there will be no

arguing about choice -- at least not for MOST of them.

You think it's a personal choice or a medical procedure. So do I. For that matter, I think, so do most people.

But the anti choice people think it's murder.

You'd have to come up with an argument for them that would be the equivalent of being pro choice for murder.

[Horse with no Name]

26. Then I wonder how their argument will stand when

the government decides that they WILL have an abortion and have no choice in the matter.
Sad really that they can't see that it is a double-edged sword that they are playing with.
FWIW--I understand exactly what you are saying.

[Nobody]

37. Most of the antis are OK with abortion if they approve of why

Abortion in the case of rape, incest, or life of the woman. If they approve of abortion for any of these reasons, or another reason, they still are OK with the general concept. Just not if the reason isn't one they approve of.

However, where privacy enters the picture is that these people claiming to be pro-life don't know the circumstances of every woman's pregnancy. They don't have access to your medical records and the police reports of crimes against you. They can't make an informed decision for you. Nor should they. Not only that, but they don't have any stake whatsoever in the choice they want to make for you, they won't have to live with your death, if you're one of the unlucky wanting to abort because 10% risk of death was too much for you but not for the Board of Abortion Approvers. They don't have to live with the child they'd prefer you give up for adoption or befriend you if you're traumatized by being raped by a family member or a stranger. They don't want the responsibility, but they certainly would love to dig through your underwear drawer and make all of your most intimate choices for you and waltz away leaving you to live with their choices.

Any time a woman walked into an abortion clinic, these people don't know why she's there. They shouldn't. It's not their business. The reasons they do approve of mgiht apply in your case and they might not. But no one is about to open their medical records or the police reports or let them pry into the minutiae of their sex lives so that they can be tsk tsked at by the self-righteous.

And those who aren't bloody hypocrites and oppose abortion no matter what are showing that they value a blastocyst, a zygote, an embryo, a fetus higher than an already existing female human being. If they're aware of the risks that pregnancy carries with it, this is broadcast loud and clear. And doubly so if they don't support free contraceptives for all and detailed information on how to make sure it's 100% effective in every instance.

Because this isn't a perfect world. Nothing is 100% effective.

[Nobody]

38. I deleted this: double post

[sarcasmo]

27. As a Man I feel the choice and vote on this issue should be Women only.

The crazy religious lunatic Men who go around spouting off their anti abortion views boggle the mind.

[in_cog_ni_to]

33. Couldn't agree more! It should be a women ONLY vote.

Men have nothing to do with this once the sperm leaves the body.

:thumbsup: to a man with a brain! I like you sarcasmo!

[Festivito]

29. It's about CRIMINALIZATION versus choice.

I haven't figured out if they want a 14-year-old to get the death penalty or not.
Gee, what if it's botched, not aborted, and she gets attempted murder.
But, I digress.

I still hold that choice/freedom can build a wall of separation between pregnancy and abortion, reducing abortions by reducing the desire for abortions until at last a wall develops between the two conflicting ideas placing the number of abortions into negative numbers.

[Nikki Stone 1]

30. Great post. Recommended

:kick:

[pat_k]

31. New FRAME: Everyone is Pro-Life. The difference is. . .

The short version:

Everybody is pro-life. The difference is, Democrats don't want to put frightened women and their doctors in jail.

Long version:

We are all pro-life. The difference is, Democrats don't think that frightened women and their doctors should be thrown in jail. Democrats believe women should never have to face such desperate circumstances -- no health care, poverty wages – that the only option they see is ending a pregnancy.

Democrats are fighting to guarantee access to health care for every single American. Democrats are fighting to guarantee a living wage for every American worker. Democrats are fighting to make it possible for families to have confidence they will be able to give their children, and their children’s children, the life they deserve. Democrats are fighting to give women more options, so they can be assured that when they bare a child, that child will be loved, protected, and provided for, even if they are unable to do so themselves.

Democrats are committed to true individual freedom, which cannot exist without freedom from fear of economic hardship. Democrats know that a vigorous private sector cannot exist if work is not valued. Democrats know that economic security requires access to quality education and medical care. Democrats know how critical those first months are in the life of a child; they know paid family leave benefits all of us. Democrats know that private industry can only flourish and create prosperity for all when the power of the people to protect their interests is embodied in strong public institutions.

We are all pro-life. The difference is that some of those who call themselves pro-life think throwing frightened women in jail is the solution. The threat of jail did not work before 1967. Democrats know we can do better than that.

Key Points
Never use the word abortion. It is too loaded. Figure out, and practice using, alternate words and phrases.

Never concede that the Democratic position is NOT pro-life. Assert the fact that the position is pro-life – and assert it with confidence. Point out the difference and use simple words. Instead of saying something like "Democrats don't want to criminalize abortion", say "Democrats don't want to put frightened women and their doctors in jail." Examine your talking points. Are there "dry" statements that can be modified to create an image or evoke an emotional context?

[Horse with no Name]

34. Great post.

Thank you.

[Foodbunny]

32. I said it earlier in another thread, but it bears repeating...

I have thyroid cancer. The treatment requires that I take a large dose of radioactive iodine. I can't be within 3 feet of another person for a week fterwards because the radiation might harm them. And I can't get pregnant for a year afterwards because it will certainly harm the fetus.

A woman from my support group had a mishap with her birth control and got pregnant 3 months after being dosed. They sonogrammed as early as they could and the fetus had sustained massive trauma from the exposure to the radiation in her system. She and her doctor made the choice to abort then instead of bearing the pain and heartache of trying to carry it to term where it would be stillborn, or suffering a miscarriage.

It was a very sad situation for her. She'd always wanted a baby. But it was better that she be able to make the choice to reduce the trauma for the fetus and herself then, then to have to carry it knowing what would happen.

[area51]

35. Welcome to DU, Foodbunny. (n/t)

[KitSileya]

36. Yes.

As many here have said, while they wouldn't choose to have one themselves, they won't deny others the right to choose one. I agree with them. If I were to force my beliefs on everyone else, you'd have to arrest at least 75% of the GOP leaders for bigamy, for example, because I am a practicing Catholic. I betcha they wouldn't like that none.

I have chosen to follow certain moral precepts that I feel is right for *me*. I don't want to live in a country that says I *have* to allow my husband to have 4 wives, or that I *have* to have an abortion if I already have a child, or that I *have* to allow my boss at work droit de seigneur on my wedding night. Neither do I want to live in a country where no one can have sex before marriage, cannot divorce, and cannot have abortions. As you say, it's all about choice.

[dsc]

39. China doesn't require the abortion of females

China did institute a one child policy with forced abortions of second children. But the reason more females are aborted than males is the private choice of pregnant people favoring males.

[Nobody]

40. Actually the Chinese law changed

Back in the 1980s I read a US News article about the Chinese one-child policy. Mostly rural areas had people sneaking in a second or third pregnancy or killing their already-born daughters so they can be legal and have a son.

Someone realized this was going on, were powerless to stop it. Too large a land area, law enforcement too thinly spread. India has the same enforcement problem with suttee (burning a widow alive on her funeral pyre).

Solution to the city folks who want a son: abort female fetuses. Now we can tell.

Solution for the rural people who don't have access to the tests to determine the sex of the fetus: kill the girls, abandon the girls, raise the girl until a boy is born and then kill big sister. The article depicted a four-year old girl dropped down a well by her daddy when mommy became pregnant. They were sure Child Number Two would be a boy.

The Chinese government relaxed the law so now if you have a daughter, you can have one more child so you get your boy.

The extreme preference for boys that is ingrained in Chinese culture is already starting to bite them on the behind. I read that article in the 1980s. That little girl in the well would have been in her 20s today. Her little brother is going to have a hard time finding a wife without going overseas to meet one.

[omega minimo]

41. "WELL BASICALLY, THE WOMEN THAT BELIEVE THAT, ARE STUPID"?!

:wtf: :puke:

That's funny-- it seemed like the women got the concept well... it seemed there were some men that needed some convincing.

These quotes neatly make the points that you are trying to get at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2357536