"The American Way" -- what are we so proud of?

[OrwellwasRight]

What is so great about the American Way, anyway?

Apparently, the "American Way" is for contractors and other businesses to cut corners so they can make even bigger profits than they could if they played by the rules? What does this behavior result in?

-Levees in New Orleans that give way, killing people and destroying an entire city
-Buildings and other structures that fall down during earthquakes because correct reinforcement was not used
-Enron (et al.) going under and taking the jobs and retirement plans of thousands with them
-Civil war era guns that backfire, injuring the very soldiers using them
-Millions of dollars in government contracts unaccounted for year after year after year
-Etc etc etc.

Why aren't we outraged that "the American Way" is to swindle, cheat, and only be concerned about whether "I got mine"? Instead, people are still talking about "boycotting Aruba"! One murder of a young blonde woman is not a policy issue America! Twelve dead miners who lost their lives in unsafe working conditions IS!

I am so fucking sick of capitalism, greed, and the Republican machine that feeds it.

But I am more amazed that so many people in this country simply don't see this single-minded profit-seeking behavior for the vile, anti-social activity that it is. People die or have their lives diminshed every day because of this behavior, but our so-called "Christian" nation is oblivious. Way to honor Jesus, folks. Nice work.

:mad: :argh: :mad: :argh: :mad: :argh: :mad: :argh: :mad: :argh:

[Deja Q]

1. Before 1980, things weren't perfect, but they were more noble... Indeed,

After WW2 things started to look fairly decent.

Maybe another WW will remind people that we need to work together and treat each other with respect... only so 50~60 years later we can be pissy toward each other again.

Oh well. Time for a snack.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

2. It might remind

the few of us that are left alive after WWIII. maybe.

[Deja Q]

4. And how those who survive it live after that. If they can.

Assuming it is a nuclear war, which I highly doubt.

[OrwellwasRight]

5. This isn't making me feel better.

Aren't there any optimists left?

[Deja Q]

7. Like I said, I don't think a nuke war is going to happen.

The 'winners' would end up losing too. Far worse than the losers do.

[OrwellwasRight]

3. It is so sad that such a tragedy is what it takes to wake people up.

In Kevin Phillips' Wealth and Democracy, he points out that the post-WWII period was the only long-sustained period of policies favored the middle class, encouraged a flattening of the wealth structure and actually changed the culture so that those with extreme wealth had some humility about having it so good when others had it so bad. Why, why, why is it so hard for people to see what is right? what is blinding them? Could it really be snacks? ;-)

[Deja Q]

6. If you want to say I'm not right, have the guts to do so directly.

Don't make a coy reference to my post indirectly.

[OrwellwasRight]

10. WTF?

I didn't mke any coy reference to your post. I responded to YOU directly-- noting that a book I recently read agrees with your point and that I think it is SAD if that is the only thing that can wake people up. And then I followed up on your snack reference with one of my own. I am not sure what is offensive there, but none of it was meant to be. Having you been dealing with too many trolls tonight? I certainly did not mean to set you on edge.

[DanCa]

8. There really are two americas I am for the liberal american way.

Just like superman and Ill never stop fighting for truth and justice. This administration is going down brick by brick piece by piece.

[OrwellwasRight]

13. Keep fighting Danca,

but I just wonder how many people tell themselves they are good and moral people and then go on to cheat others intheir business with no care at all about the eventual consequences to other human beings? Wasn't there one Democrat building the levees who about the cutting of the corners? Why didn't he speak up, whistle blow, tell someone?

Since it is so difficult to be brave, and we need so much bravery to fight the evil Repukes, sometimes I wonder how long it will take and if we will finally overcome. But I like to hear the confidence.

[pocket]

9. Civil war era guns that backfire, injuring the very soldiers using them?

What are you referring to?

[OrwellwasRight]

11. I think I read it in A People's History of the United Statesn

about some millionaire who began his fortune by buying defective guns that had been discarded by the US government, then taking them directly to the battlefiled (where weapons are always in great demand) and soldiers had things like their thumbs blown off and eye injuries. Can't remember more than that, but it is a pretty sad and shocking story about the lengths that people will go to to make a buck. And no tv to spread the word about the swindler or FTC to give consumer protections back in the day...

[boobooday]

12. Proud of Power

The Power of Pride.

[OrwellwasRight]

15. Yeah, it is pretty powerful.

Ick. Love of our fellow man has to be stronger.

Molloy just called Bush a "sick little man." I think that could apply to a lot of the money-grubbers who are so proud of their power.

[TahitiNut]

14. "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

In the aftermath of WW2, the U.S. was the only industrialized nation with its industrial infrastructure not only intact, but pumped up by the steroids of war production. It was not because we were 'better' at production of goods, it was because our factories and roads and power plants and railroads and airports weren't bombed and destroyed. Nonetheless, we spent about two decades patting ourselves on the back and pumping up our egos - rewarding ourselves with gas-guzzlers (instead of public transportation), entertainment (even more than education), and materialist lifestyles that made keeping up with the Joneses an escape from duck and cover. When Germany and Japan (and the rest of Western Europe) showed they could kick our ass by managing their industry better (more FAIRLY to their workers and producing higher quality goods at lower cost) we didn't get the message that it was a "management problem" but, instead, turned our industry over to the financial brokers who treated labor as a commodity and quality as a 'public relations problem.' We bought the myth. We're waking up to see a naked Empire. Naked greed. Naked predation. Naked corruption.

Our major religious, industrial, and governmental institutions are rotted from the head down.

[OrwellwasRight]

16. And yet we haven't learned a damn thing

from the folks in other countries who report a higher quality of life and higher overall standards of living because they know how to do little things we don't, like share. Everyone doesn't need a fucking McMansion in France or Italy or Japan, and yet more babies stay alive and more families go on vacations, and every fucking citizen isn't wire-tapped.

Yet you can't tell some people that we are in fact not the "free-est country in the world" or that we do not in fact have the highest standard of living just because we have more SUVs per person. Wake up, America!

[MazeRat7]

17. There is so much wrong here I just don't know where to start....

But I will try...

Yes greed is bad but it extends beyond a singular political party... Its a human short-coming, not a political short-coming so don't try to lay it at the feet of our enemy when so many other apolitical types are guilty as well.

As for capitalism, well given the alternatives, it would be my first choice. What system would you prefer ? I personally like making money. Not for the sake of making money, but because of what it allows me to do. Like... (imagine this) supporting progressive candidates that represent me and work for change. Funny thing about a system... change must come from within.

And finally, please refrain from labeling those who seek to make "profits" (eg working americans) as "vile" and "anti-social". I realize that is not what you meant.. but that is what you said. Generalizations are a bitch and they will bite you every time.

*cheers.

MZr7

[OrwellwasRight]

18. If it is a human shortcoming,then why are some people not greedy?

Why did somebody return my lost wallet with $200 cash still in it? Not because he was greedy. All people can overcome base instincts, but many choose not to.

Since I believe the central tenet of the Republican Party philosophy to be "every man for himself" and the central tenet of the Democratic Party philosophy to be "we're all in this together," I will lay greed at the feet of one party. I think the Republicans are the major (even if they are not the only) purveyors and promoters of it in our culture today.

One problem with capitalism is its worship of the market, as if it cures all. If it cured all, it would not need to be corrected for, and yet we know that it does need corrections. A market is simply a historical institution, a model that arose, and like other institutions, benefitted some and harmed others. It happened to be a model that was easily replicated and easily dominated competing models and institutions at the time of its rise. It is not sacred, no matter how much economists tell us that it is. I think it has proved itself to be a disgraceful, de-humanistic model (see Syriana for a great example). Thus, I would not choose capitalism given the choice.

And as to profits, I think you and I are using different definitions, and I think you may be inadvertently limiting what I originally said.

A) I believe Working Americans "wage-seek," they do not "profit-seek." Wages and profits are different. I think even Milton Friedman would agree on that. I do not begrudge anyone who wants to make a living by seeking wages (I do it and it sounds like you do too) nor do I mean to condemn someone who seeks profits within a moral framework.

B) However, I said "single-minded profit-seeking" is vile and anti-social. And I did mean to say that. I believe that seeking profits to the exclusion of all other goals ("single-minded"), including human safety, environmental cleanliness, kindness to animals, etc. is VILE. It harms our world and it harms those victimized by the faulty product or structure. I believe that no one has a right to make a profit by using fraud, taking advantage of workers, or externalizing toxins on the environment. I do think such behavior is vile and I meant to say it.

Cheers! :-)

[PassingFair]

19. I am so fucking sick of capitalism, greed, and the Republican machine that

Why do you hate America?

Do I NEED this:

:sarcasm:

[OrwellwasRight]

20. No need. I felt the sarcasm through my keybaord baby.

I am expecting a call from Hannity any minute now....

"Hello?"

"I heard you were a liberal America-hater. Why are you demoralizing our troops?"

"Um, NSA, are you getting this?"

[OneBlueSky]

21. speaking of "the American way of life" that Bush is so intent on . . .

protecting at any cost, see . . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=95441

[OrwellwasRight]

22. We are on the same page, OneBlueSky.

I say we start the campaign for a new and improved American Way of Life today, one that respects others and the planet.

Denny, want to get us started? :bounce:

[raccoon]

23. I've observed that many times when someone says,

"that's the American way," they are trying to manipulate you or
have no other justification for something, so they say that because they think it sounds good.

For example, I remember somebody saying buying stocks is "the American way." Huh? People in other countries don't buy stocks???

[OrwellwasRight]

24. Good point.

I hadn't thought about it that way before. I am going to use that in the future, if you don't mind.
:thumbsup:

[raccoon]

27. No hay problema! nt

[Inland]

25. What are we proud of? A lot less than a few short years ago, for sure.

There's a lot to be proud of, but given the shit to be ashamed of, maybe best to avoid the subject. The country that is losing PR battles with Osama and battling Iran and NK for the bottom of world opinion shouldn't ask for an evaluation.

[Bluerthanblue]

26. Carlin:"..Truth. Justice. AND The American Way????"

As George said "I thought truth and justice WAS the American way??"
I don't think I can figure out when or where we went wrong- but we've been wrong for a long time now.
And the chickens have come home to roost.

Maybe it was the industrial revolution. and the stock market-
Seems like the ground was much more level before the dynasties like Rockefellers, Fords, Duponts, Mellons etc.

Before the population grew so large that one persons vote didn't really matter- ???

At any rate, I think what has happened, is that the last century, while it may have 'looked' better, was in many ways just as corrupt, and immoral- (in terms of what we were willing to do to other countries to 'get ahead' while maintaining a 'good guy facade') But the mask is off- and unashamedly so- And what lies beneath is pretty frickin ugly-

Despite my belief that 'joe and jane average american' are willingly 'unaware' and would not be able to face the reality of what 'we' do, to live like 'we have' and believe 'we deserve'.
Without either revolting, or eating a bullet.

[OrwellwasRight]

28. Word.

And I love the Carlin reference.