Since when is legislating language a good idea?

[Solon]

No seriously, I mean, on a national level, what does it accomplish? I know many argue that its symbolic, or would only change what language is only acceptable on government forms, etc. The question is, does it limit what local and state governments do? Look at Arizona, a state with TWO official languages, Spanish and English, and also Hawaii, which also is officially bi-lingual. How does it affect them? Not to mention that if limits are placed on local governments to CHANGING conditions it could actually INCREASE stratification and discrimination of non-English speakers.

I could give an example, if you wish, my area absorbed, so to speak, a large number of refugees from Serbia, mostly Muslim Serbs. They did NOT magically learn English instantly, but the local governments were able to provide the appropriate forms for things like Driver's license tests, etc. that HELP them actually get back on their feet. Is taking this OPPORTUNITY away from them supposed to be a good thing?

My personal feeling is that this is a Bullshit issue based on paranoia because people feel uncomfortable with another language spoken in front of them and just want "those people" to go away. Pathetic really.

[The_Casual_Observer]

1. It's a good idea if you want to ignite your stupid base of support

by using meaningless "social" issues.

[treestar]

2. IA. I think other countries who have official languages are just

reflecting the already existing state of affairs and they include multiple languages.

I think if the US were doing this in a genuine way, it would say its official languages are English and Spanish.

[JuniperLea]

3. Yo...'sup y'all?

It starts with language, then dialect, then slang... until we are all cleaned up and ready for the mandatory church meeting and communion before the king.

I put my daughter in a Spanish immersion Montessori school when she was 9 or so... now, at 21, she speaks Spanish like a native. Seriously. She is always asked if she is from Mexico and if Spanish is her first language. Even by her college Spanish teacher who thought she was of German/Mexican descent and was going for an easy A.

I think America should be ashamed. If you travel in Europe you find that most people speak two, three... seven languages! Here, two is not all that common. We need to broaden our own education to include the languages of our neighbors... and they should learn our language as well. But legislating language is just one more way the man can hold us down... bastards. I'm not down with that sickness, yo! Foshizzle!

[madeline_con]

7. You mentioned Europeans...

I see Africans on TV; refugees, they have nothing. They speak English. If other people can do it, Americans should be bilingual, at least.

[JuniperLea]

12. Absolutely!

At the very minimum! It wouldn't hurt any of us to stretch our minds and learn another language. If we expect it of others, we should expect it of ourselves.

[Solon]

8. Funny story...

OK, I took French, and never had an opportunity to use it in any "real" enviroment at all. OK, so I was working for EVIL INCORPORATED(Wal-Mart) and one day at work, my dept. manager comes up to me and asks: "You speak French don't you?", I answered yes, and he then said there was a couple right here that don't speak English, can I help, I was like sure, but the moment the lady in front of him started speaking Italian, I knew I was in trouble. :)

The sentence structure is similar, but many of the inflections and stuff were totally lost on me, however, after a couple of minutes, I was able to figure out that she wanted a price check on an item, so I did that for her, good thing numbers are universal! I also helped out, and had an easier time, with a French couple that wanted to buy their newly married son something of a house warming gift for him and his American wife. You never know when such skills are useful, I just wish I had more practice, immersion for even Spanish isn't really an option around here. I'm not fluent, but usually, especially when writtten out or you speak REALLY slowly like I'm really stupid, and I can figure out what you are saying in most of the romance languages, at least the "gist" of it.

[JuniperLea]

11. I speak Spanish like a gringa, according to daughter dearest

I took French too, but I've used it so little and have been so exposed to so much Spanish (living in Los Angeles County all my life) that I understand and speak them equally... equally bad. Although I do better reading them. My clumsy American tongue!

[Solon]

14. LOL, the pronunciation always trips me up! n/t

[SmokingJacket]

15. How great is that!!

What a gift your gave your daughter! Wish I could do the same around here...

[JuniperLea]

19. Here's a funny story for you...

My daughter and I were with a Latina friend of mine (third generation Angelino who speaks NO Spanish). A Latino comes up to us, looks at my Latina friend and asks a question in Spanish. My friend looked confused... my daughter jumped in and answered the man's question. Then HE looked confused! Here was this blond, blue-eyed, very Irish looking girl speaking perfect Spanish! Hahaha! We laughed about it off and on for hours! And it is still a story told around the kitchen table from time to time:)

[unpossibles]

4. I'm getting sick of saying this, but

so much for smaller, less-intrusive government. That's what they wanted, right?

[madeline_con]

5. "Bullshit issue based on paranoia ..."

There's the crux of the issue.

It makes me laugh that some people are so self-important, they think anything said in front of them in "another" language MUST be all about them. :eyes:

[brokensymmetry]

6. On the back of the U.S. dollar -

I see the latin words: Annuit Coeptis and Novus Ordo Seclorum

So I guess the U.S Dollar is bogus.

Who would have thought it?

:evilgrin:

[Solon]

9. Don't forget the national motto: E pluribus unum.

Oh wait, they had to change it to something sectarian, damned shame to, good concept, that Latin saying.

[LuckyLib]

10. FYI, the California constitution was written in both Spanish

and English, reflecting the settler/citizens who had created the new government. California (and the rest of the Southwest) was once part of Mexico. Our history is very much tied into Spanish, and many areas reflect this, to this day.

[Solon]

13. My city, smack dab in the middle of the US was given its name...

by the Spanish, granted when it changed to US hands, the name was "Americanized", but the Church the city is named after is still dedicated to San Carlos Borromeo. Before the Spanish influence, the town was a French fur trading post, the second oldest city west of the Mississippi called "Les Petites Cotes". Plus, during the beginning half of the 19th century, we also had a huge immigration of Germans in this area. So, in the end, you end up with a city that has a SHITLOAD of microbrewers, Oktoberfest is king, in addition to Mardi Gras, and to make things really interesting, now with the recent influx of Mexican-Americans, Cinco de Mayo, and don't forget Saint Patrick's day.

[acmejack]

16. Indeed it is contrary to the spirit of the earliest days of the Country!

Think of participants in the the Revolution! Heroes such as General Von Steuben, other germans, french, spaniards, italians and they certainly didn't stop speaking their native tongues.

Here in Texas many families locally spoke German or, gasp, Spanish, at home exclusively in the fifties. I know in Buffalo that many households spoke Polish or Italian at home. So this is pure unadulterated bullshit any way one distills it.

[Maestro]

17. I speak Spanish and English fluently and often at work.

If some bean-head politico wants to legislate language it won't change me or what I do. Asswipes! It's ridiculous.

[Igel]

18. They're not. It's a bit of redundant feel-good

fluff, with no consequence. Changes nothing, says little.

In some countries, however, language legislation is crucial. And it goes a few different ways--mandating language planning and use to preserve minority languages (seldom imported minority languages), mandating a specific language be taught and be the language of public discourse (which is different from discourse in public), or stipulating a range of languages for different uses.

When Latvia and Lithuania got their independence, they found that they had many Russian speakers; Russian had been co-official with the indigenous languages, but had much more utility. They also had a lot of in-migration of Russians. So to get the government set up using the indigenous languages they stipulated that Latvian and Lithuanian be taught, that it be used, that packaging and official documents be in it, and that it be known as a requirement for working for the civil service. Suddenly all the monolingual Russians were up in arms: their privilege was taken away. Kazakhstan and other countries have done similar kinds of legislating.

Czech was going to be extinct, but language legislation pulled it back from the brink. "Linguistic nationalism" isn't always a bad thing. Considering Montenegran, however, it sometimes is.

Pakistan has had repeated problems with language. Officially, Urdu is the national language, with English, and they're to take steps to replace English with Urdu. But you'd think the main reason they don't is that English is just too useful: international commerce and communication, text books, and the sort, right? Nah: If Urdu, the language of one part of the country, becomes the main language, then everybody from other parts of the country will have to be bilingual with Urdu. Why should native Urdu speakers learn Punjabi, Sindhi, Pashto, and Baluchi (not to mention Brahui), when they already would know the national language--instead they can learn English and have an advantage in school and international affairs when the Sindi speakers are learning Urdu. As it is, the 'minority' language speakers learn English, and that's pretty much enough currently. This sort of wrangling has kept English in India and many other countries, French in some countries, etc.

Then there's Canada, stipulating that civil servants must know French, even in British Columbia. Or Spain, producing dictionaries for Aragones and Leones, Galician, and other 'languages' for the purpose of making sure they can translate their laws into all the languages spoken--even if nearly every Galician and Leones speaker is fluent in Spanish, and the 'languages' are pretty much mutually comprehensible. But 'splitters' have the day in language classification, not the 'lumpers'.

In all these cases, this isn't nearly as severe as what Turkey did with Kurdish: its use in schools not as a language of instruction but for communication between kids was banned. A great breakthrough was allowing an hour or so per week in Kurdish, in Kurdish-majority areas.

[Solon]

20. See that's the thing, this type of stuff isn't needed in the U.S.

Due to demographics and geography, certain areas of the nation are going to be bilingual by default. A country as large as the United States probably couldn't keep up with changes, if we limited ALL government documents and forms to ONE language nationally, then recent immigrants are left out in the dust who are from countries where English isn't widespread. In many cases, you need a license to have a job to afford the ESL classes to learn English in the first place. Think of it as a vicious cycle, where it becomes increasingly difficult for immigrants to make a living first, and conversely makes it more difficult for them to lean English as well.

However, keep it where the federal government is out of the business entirely and LOCAL and state governments can respond to situations as needed, like refugee immigrating here en mass, and other types of demographic changes. We shouldn't expect every single immigrant to even be proficient in English as soon as they walk on our soil, that's unrealistic to begin with.