imho, no soldier EVER dies in vain

[mdmc]

Live in Peace or Rest in it! .

All soldiers are heros, and when they pass, they have died a hero's death. I am a pacifist, and I am not in any way justifying war as a viable solution to conflict. A soldier is a hero, and thus can never die in vain.

However, the DRUG WAR offers few chances to die a hero. Every victim of the drug war dies in vain. It is rare that the drug war results in the death of a hero. Poor Robin was a victim.

While the occupation of Iraq is in now way going as planned, it is still functioning far better then our war on drugs. Very few support the war on drugs, fewer beleive that we are winning it. Someone has got to stand up and CHANGE THE COURSE OF THIS WAR!


Times Herald-Record/JEFF GOULDING
5/16/06-Noemi Rivera, left, of the City of Newburgh, is very concerned about her missing 19 year old son, Robin, who vanished on May 12th from the streets of Newburgh. Her nephew Jesus E. Aviles, 24, has made up some posters.


Times Herald-Record/JEFF GOULDING
5/16/06-The homemade posters that the Rivera family has made to post around the neighborhood.



http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2006/05/19/news-jddeadfolo-05-19.html
Young man's life snuffed out. Why?
Newburgh killing seen as mistaken ID

By John Doherty
Times Herald-Record
[e-mail]

[mdmc]

1. kick

:kick:

[mdmc]

2. one

www.one.org :kick:

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[genie_weenie]

4. Thanks! Because it was my choice to serve under Bush!

Our military are not heros, that is correct. But to blame them for serving under Bush smacks of 'Nam all over. The military did not vote lockstep for Bush (my homw state went for Gore and Kerry). The reason the military are not heros is because the American people have allowed themselves as they have always allowed themselves to be stampeded into War under false pretenses.

This is to America's credit. Our leaders must always lie to us to get us into wars and must continue the barrage of lies, coercion and threats to those in uniform to continue the War.

So, how about blaming the Poverty Draft, the Public School System instead of the men and women caught up in the Machine of Death.

Not every German soldier was a Nazi or worked Concentration Camps, btw...

[mdmc]

6. once you join you are on another realm

and in the service of duty, become a hero. Even the most misguided volunteer army is heroic in service to their nation.

[GreenArrow]

8. if so, then "hero" is a rather meaningless term

While military service provides opportunities for heroism; it does not automatically confer it.

[mdmc]

13. when you put your life on the life to protect home and family

you are a hero.

My best friends grandfather was forced marched to fight on the eastern front. It is in the duty to your fellow soldier, and your country, that makes the duty heroic.

What happened to Robin was tragic. His mother can state that he died in vain.

[GreenArrow]

19. I disagree with you on the meaning of heroism

but I couldn't agree with you more on the war on Drugs, which is destructive, short-sided, wasteful of time, lives and money, ineffective, counter-productive, and generally stupid beyond belief.

[mdmc]

23. I got all the hero stuff from reading Joe Campbell

I can't really explain it as well as he does... Thanks for the post..

peace and low stress

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. You think we should blame the public school system for

the war?

huh??

[genie_weenie]

35. What does the Public school system teach?

You pledge allegiance to the flag and to the Republic for which it stands... Why? The Flag has nothing to do with human rights or the Constitution. Yet you are taught to prostrate yourself to it's majesty.

The US public education system was designed to keep a stratified class system. Those who are rich and destined to rule were given one type of education (in law, politics for use in controlling the masses) the rest were to be taught skills in working industrial jobs and taught to keep their place in society.

It also teaches subservience to authority. And the ultimate authority in the US are the ensconced Federal Government. You are to respect, fear and cower to them, regardless of the horrors they commit, or the elections the falsify to keep their position, regardless of the graft and corruption which was prevalent 150 years ago and remains so today.

So, today's modern school system is fraught with too much funding which does not go to education but is sucked down the blackhole of waste and loss, has raised generations to believe the only Wars America has fought have been The Revolution (and a minor skirmish with the British in 1812 which was just an extension of the Revolution Damn evil British), the Civil War (to SAVE!!! the Republic), Spanish American War (Remember the Maine Quick War), WWI (The Lusitania!!!), WWII (We SAVED THE WORLD), Vietnam (We could have won except for some mistakes)...

Therefore, War is taught as good and America only engages in Wars to save people or bring about a better peace or for Democracy.

How many High School and Below students know about the repeated incursions into Central and South America? Or the razing of Luzon to kill every Filipino Insurgents over 10? Or the labor wars in America including the infamous Ludlow 1914 incident or the Haymarket square Riot? Or the Whiskey Rebellion in 1794? Or Dorr's Rebellion in 1841? Or the routing of American WWI veterans in 1932 by MacArthur, Eisenhower and Patton?
And listen to the way history has framed those incidents. Any resistance the ALL POWERFUL GOD ANOINTED STATE are insurgents or rebels or rioters and deserve their fate...

Well, I've blathered on incoherently for long enough. The main point I was stating was children for the last 100 years have been taught the State (The US) is the end all of the World and your personal freedom and rights need to be subverted to the Rights and Necessitates of the State. It's very post-Hegelian thought...

[mdmc]

42. thanks for the clarification

peace to you. I enjoyed reading it, very coherent. Peace. Those that rebelled are heros too. My point with this OP was that Du should be as upset with the drug war as they are with Dems that support the war with Iraq.

[mdmc]

39. i don't know what you are talking about...

peace

[kiraboo]

31. V. good post.

I find myself becoming, if not angry then sometimes frustrated with the notion that all soldiers are heroes. People join the military for many reasons, some good and some not as good. It is difficult for me to understand why anybody would choose to serve under the shrub's watch, but precisely because I don't understand it, I won't judge.

[mdmc]

36. Hero with 1,000 faces

worthy of a read regarding the hero journey.

[mdmc]

5. those that served under Hitler were heros.

[brentspeak]

7. Uh, they were?

[mdmc]

15. I can quote the lectures by Joe Campbell

Actually, I am reading The Power of Myth with is the book version of interviews between Bill Moyers and Joe Campbell. It is concise, and there was a great discussion on this very subject.

[Marr]

25. If you accept Joseph Campbell's definition of "hero", yes.

I think it's a good one, too. IIRC, it's something to do with leaving the community to serve some ideal or other. Of course it's all very subjective. The Nazi soldiers would've definitely been heroes to "good Germans", but not to anyone else.

[mdmc]

29. to good germans and the Bush family

:toast:

[Swamp Rat]

14. I respectfully disagree - they were, for the most part, killers.

Maybe there were instances of heroism, like dissent amongst the ranks or saving innocent civilians, but most German soldiers were professional killers.... that was their job.

We are no better, no worse.



edit: I feel sorry for Noemi Rivera and Jesus, and the rest of the family. :cry:

[mdmc]

18. I understand your feelings sw

I would recommend The Hero with a thousand Faces by Joesph Campbell to you.

I really think that the drug war is equally destructive as the war we are fighting in Iraq.

Respectfully, I think that Robin's mother would be able to find some peace in knowing that Robin died in the service of his country, if he died in Iraq and not over a nickel bag in NY.

[madeline_con]

10. They're just doing their job.

It's not their fault their organization has been hijacked to fight a perpetual petrowar.

[radwriter0555]

22. They have the ability to choose whom they serve. I would rather sit in

jail than serve a treasonous, corrupt criminal regime like the bush administration.

Free will still exists. They've chosen to serve the bush regime.

[mdmc]

24. radwriter0555, I would never suggest to a soldier that they should

chose jail over service. Frankly, when the Dems take the white house in 2008, I bet soldiers will still be serving in Iraq. They are not fighting for Bush; they are fighting for Bush, the Senate, the House, and their homeland. Both of my Senators (Clinton and Schumer) are committed to a pro-west stable democracy in Iraq. It is fantasy to think that Bush drove us to war - America, all of America, is complicit. (you and I could be in jail right now for trying to shut down the war machine. we are not in jail because we didn't care enough to oppose war on that level. we are as complicit as the soldiers fighting and senators supporting it). On some level, we are all supporting the war, just like we are supporting the drug war.

The soldiers don't make the policy, they fight for it.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

21. Not all of them support Bush.

One of my very good friends, who is even more liberal than me, is in the army. He's home for a bit from his first tour in Iraq. He's getting sent back for a 2nd tour after two weeks back home. He doesn't support the war at all. He recognizes that it's a fucked-up situation and he says that a lot of others over there agree.

[StellaBlue]

9. this is the great tabooed debate.

K&R

[Gormy Cuss]

11. I'm sorry, mdmc

We will never know what this young man could have become.

[mdmc]

16. thank you kindly Gormy Cuss

I don't think that Newburgh has had a single Iraq war casulaty yet. But we lose dozens of people to the drug war each year!:mad:

[madokie]

12. My hero friend may I ask, what, where, when

15 months but I am no hero. I am a troubled Vietnam Vet nothing more nothing less.

[mdmc]

17. I disagree

but i would never force any sort of title or opinion on to you. Your experience, and trouble is something...bigger... then me...
:patriot:

I don't know how to say this. Robin had talked about the army. The way Robin died (most likely over $20 bucks, or something less trivial) makes me sick and mad. The drug war has failed, and yet no one will admit this and work for change. And the poor die, the rich get community service, and we all get to foot the bill.

and if you are not a hero, i don't know what is

[In_The_Wind]

20. I'm truly sorry, mdmc.

The boy should still be alive today.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

26. This is so sad mdmc, but the War On Drugs is as bogus as the War on Terror

It is endless and will continue to be endless until drugs are legalized. There is a problem, according to what I "sense", legalization may cause the stock market to crash when much of the drug money is laundered. Check to see how many high CIA officials later became and are part of the SEC.
Look how the opium poppy has flourished since we "won" Afghanistan..that should be a big clue. Heck, Iran-Contra was a drugs for arms deal.


As to soldiers not dying in vain and all being heros, I have to respectfully disagree with that. Those who died did die in vain because they were sent on a bugus mission. A mission that has filled the coffers of fatcat contractors and given the reins of more power to our sociopth administration. As to being heroic. Heroism is determined by heroic actions and not all soldiers can be qualified for that. Yes, there are many, yet then you have those who used napalm in Fallujah, lined up people and exectuted them, and tortured innocents. Obviously these people are not heroic. Following criminal orders is not heroic.

[mdmc]

41. thanks for the post ommm

peace!

[TahitiNut]

27. I find it sad that so few on DU (and in our nation) understand SERVICE

... to the nation (We The People) in the simplest sense.

The virtue of service is in attending to the needs, welfare, and will of those served and placing one's own personal preferences secondary. When we abandon the principle "of the People, by the People, and for the People" we've abandoned democracy itself. No matter how endangered and under siege, democracy cannot be lost - only surrendered.

National service is and must be a 'leap of faith' - faith in the People which is faith in a nation. That same faith is the essential foundation of democracy. It is NOT a faith in 'leadership' or autocrats or politicians. Those are merely the transients whereby a representative democracy insititutionalizes the will of the People.

[mdmc]

38. thanks for the post tahitinut

:patriot:

[Yollam]

28. What a fascinating outlook. I think most soldiers die in vain.

Unless the cause they are fighting for is just, they are dying in vain, and are the murder victims of the corrupt administration that put them in harm's way in the first place.

They may be dying noble deaths, because they are deluded about the justness of the war, or simply because their sense of duty takes precedence over their personal feelings against the war, but in the long run, their deaths have not helped liberate a soul. That is the very definition of dying in vain - dying for nothing. The only way they can possibly help is by adding to a pile of bodies that's finally gotten so high that Americans FINALLY get sick of it.


I also disagree with your take on the war on drugs. While I think it is incredibly misguided, wrongheaded and a massive waste of resources, everything I've ever read has said that the majority of Americans DO support it and oppose legalization. Hell, most Americans don't even have a problem with the HUGE invasion of privacy (and personal insult) imposed by employers who make random drug testing a condition of employment.

[Orsino]

32. Soldiers are trained killers.

The worst of them are cowardly bullies who kill and torture the helpless.

The best of them are potential heroes, but few of them get the chance to perform or to be recognized as such. They and the rest deserve honor for their many sacrifices on behalf of their fellow citizens and fellow soldiers.

All are tools of the rich and powerful. Pray that they are not wasted in stupid, brutal adventurism.

[Joe Fields]

33. I disagree.

Many soldiers have died in vein. It is a myth and a disservice to the importance of using the best of judgement when our leaders make the decision to use force against another nation to believe otherwise.

[mdmc]

40. depends on your definition of

hero

[wtmusic]

34. "The occupation of Iraq is functioning far better than the war on drugs."

Really?

It's a shame that Robin lost his life. Then again, while you were writing your post, probably another 30 Iraqis lost theirs, thanks to your president and your tax money.

Let's get some perspective here.

[mdmc]

37. And at least 30 have died here in America, due to the drug war.

Please, if you live near a big city, look at the newspaper. Hundreds of people are being jailed and killed here in America due to our inability to address the drug war.

I meant what I said. We are fighting the war in Iraq much better then the war on drugs. More lives are being ruined in America due to the drug war. REALLY.